Confederate Flag

[SUNDAE]

Welcome to CF Sundae!

Shame on me (Tulc I am remiss here, I have been reading Sundae's posts for a bit now)

Thanks, but you already welcomed me-was it last week???

 

[praying]

Mhatten, I've never heard of Benjamins Baby! I confess I'm not exactly "with it"!

You make a great point!!!!!

WEll I have kids so I have to stay up with what they are into, but I would not describe myslef as with it, in fact my 12 year old son tells me whenever I make an attmept to be "with it" dont' go there Mom.

 

[SUNDAE]

WEll I have kids so I have to stay up with what they are into, but I would not describe myslef as with it, in fact my 12 year old son tells me whenever I make an attmept to be "with it" dont' go there Mom.

I know it!!! I've given up trying!!!!

 

[Lillithspeak]

I know it!!! I've given up trying!!!!

Benjamins are 100 dollar bills. The sentence should read: "It's all about the Benjamins, baby. Sheesh, my kids are 37 and 34 and even I know this one! LOL

 

[SUNDAE]

Benjamins are 100 dollar bills. The sentence should read: "It's all about the Benjamins, baby. Sheesh, my kids are 37 and 34 and even I know this one! LOL

Thanks!!!

 

[praying]

Thanks, but you already welcomed me-was it last week???

I did, well two wlecomes is better than one, kinda like those Benjamins

 

[IrishJohan]

The South could not have built such a massive agricultural economy without the hard work of millions of slaves.The industrial growth of the North depended on the revenue from the tax on this economy, it was the pending loss of that revenue that brought about the war, so in that way, slavery was the root cause of the conflict.

Actually, no. Historian James McPherson makes a good argument that slavery impeded the South's economy in his book Ordeal by Fire.

The war was about money, not the freedom of the slaves,the Emancipation Proclamation would have allowed the southern states to maintain slavery if they returned to the United States.

The Emancipation Proclamation was a brilliant military tactic and all Lincoln could do by Executive Order. If the South had decided to call it quits after January 1, 1863 and end their drive for independence, slavery might have been allowed in areas untouched by the Proclamation, but by then the 13th Amendment was on its way for ratification. Even if the 13th Amendment hadn't succeeded in this hypothetical scenario, slavery would have been doomed without expansion into the territories and its abolishment in the areas of the South effected by the Proclamation.

 

[IrishJohan]

The framers of the Confererate Constitution knew that the institution of slavery could not last. They banned the importation of any new slaves (art1,sec9) which also meant that those who left could not be legally returned; with no new slaves and no way to retrieve runaways ,the instituion of slavery would not have lasted more than another generation.

You're forgetting about other sections of the Confederate Constitution:

Article IV, Section 2: The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired. [...]

No slave or other person held to service or labor in any State or Territory of the Confederate States, under the laws thereof, escaping or lawfully carried into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor; but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such slave belongs,. or to whom such service or labor may be due.

Article IV, Section 3: The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/csa.htm

Lincoln believed that Africans could never be the equal of whites, his policy was emancipation along with deportation. (Carl Sandburg "Lincoln,The War Years" or "The Annals of America" vol9pg363)

Lincoln's views evolved over the course of the war and deportation to Africa was quickly dropped.

 

[IrishJohan]

Slavery IF the confedracy had remained would have lasted in some form for many years, I would venture to guess much longer than a generation given that it took 100 years for equal rights to be made law of the land via the constitution. Now if the confederacy survived there would not have been that ability to force the end of slavery/injustice towards Africans. Yes there probably would have been forgein governments pressuring the Confederacy to end the practice but as hsitory tells us mass forgien government pressure on the issue of human rights is extremely lacking unless it is somehow tied to the pressuring government's interests/economics. Evidenced with the exisitence of apartheid in South Africa until 1989.

Well this all hypothetical and speculative now anyways, but I do believe Britain and France would have pressured the South to abolish slavery. "King Cotton" was subject to its own weaknesses too as Britain and France both found Indian cotton just as good. Jim Crow would have taken a century to end of course.

 

[DixieBelle]

It seems non-Southerners love the harp on and on about the ill-will between white Southerners and black Southerners and I'm not disputing the fact that there have been some problems, but if you look at history, Reconstruction was handled by the USA in a way that was bound to stir up trouble between the races. Check out the link, as it explains things much better than I ever could!

http://www.charlotte.infi.net/~jtuggle/Apologia19.htm

This is truly a sad thing, especially in light of the many Confederates of different races (African-American, Caucasion, Native Americans, etc.) who all fought bravely side by side for a common Cause while being outnumbered by at least 3-1 by the northern invaders. One can look at the North and see that there are many race problems there as well, but somehow its still taken for granted that only Southerners could possibly be racists!

 

[SUNDAE]

Well this all hypothetical and speculative now anyways, but I do believe Britain and France would have pressured the South to abolish slavery. "King Cotton" was subject to its own weaknesses too as Britain and France both found Indian cotton just as good. Jim Crow would have taken a century to end of course.

Jim Crow laws would still be in existence today! They took a century to end anyway. A Confederate victory would've prolonged the process!

 

[IrishJohan]

Jim Crow laws would still be in existence today! They took a century to end anyway. A Confederate victory would've prolonged the process!

Doubtful, but all that would depend upon whether figures like MLK would have arisen and socially trying times like the 1960s would have occurred. Difficult to say really.

 

[SUNDAE]

This is truly a sad thing, especially in light of the many Confederates of different races (African-American, Caucasion, Native Americans, etc.) who all fought bravely side by side for a common Cause while being outnumbered by at least 3-1 by the northern invaders. One can look at the North and see that there are many race problems there as well, but somehow its still taken for granted that only Southerners could possibly be racists!

Yes, there are racists all over! Believe it or not we have them in Canada as well!

The common cause you mentioned included among other things the right to enslave another human being. Why is it so difficult to see how vile and repugnant that is??

 

[IrishJohan]

It seems non-Southerners love the harp on and on about the ill-will between white Southerners and black Southerners and I'm not disputing the fact that there have been some problems, but if you look at history, Reconstruction was handled by the USA in a way that was bound to stir up trouble between the races. Check out the link, as it explains things much better than I ever could!

http://www.charlotte.infi.net/~jtuggle/Apologia19.htm

Pointing out racism in the North doesn't mitigate the fact that historically speaking Reconstruction was relatively easy on a defeated "rebellious" area than in most other countries. There were no mass trials and executions of "rebels", nor were former Confederates prevented from pursuing a better lie (though barred from Federal office). Besides, once the Tilden-Hayes election debacle occurred, Reconstruction ended so we're really only talking about a decade which is a short amount of time when compared to the aftermaths of civil wars in other nations in the world.

 

[praying]

I'm not disputing the fact that there have been some problems,

Well that is the understatement of the century, "some problems" that seems like an awfully cavalier and callous way of terming slavery and the subsequent 100 years of injustices, public lynchings, and the like, suffered by African Americans at the hands of southerners. Of cousre this was not all southerners but it was the prevalent feeling. The north is not without fault either I realize but it seems to me that many people are in denial regarding the confederate flag and what it represents.

 

[praying]

It seems non-Southerners love the harp on and on about the ill-will between white Southerners and black Southerners and I'm not disputing the fact that there have been some problems, but if you look at history, Reconstruction was handled by the USA in a way that was bound to stir up trouble between the races. Check out the link, as it explains things much better than I ever could!

http://www.charlotte.infi.net/~jtuggle/Apologia19.htm

This is truly a sad thing, especially in light of the many Confederates of different races (African-American, Caucasion, Native Americans, etc.) who all fought bravely side by side for a common Cause while being outnumbered by at least 3-1 by the northern invaders. One can look at the North and see that there are many race problems there as well, but somehow its still taken for granted that only Southerners could possibly be racists!

I think the best way to have an understanding of the Confederate flag and what it represents to African Americans is to read the Slave Narratives from the Federal Writers' Project, 1936-1938. This was project where African Americans who were born into slavery were interviewed and there storeis recorded for posterity. It was/is an oral history of the institution of slavery told by those who lived and suffered through it.

Here is a link to the online version:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/snhtml/snhome.html it is presented by the Library of Congress.

 

[SUNDAE]

I think the best way to have an understanding of the Confederate flag and what it represents to African Americans is to read the Slave Narratives from the Federal Writers' Project, 1936-1938. This was project where African Americans who were born into slavery were interviewed and there storeis recorded for posterity. It was/is an oral history of the institution of slavery told by those who lived and suffered through it.

Here is a link to the online version:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/snhtml/snhome.html it is presented by the Library of Congress.

A great site! I could spend hours there! Reading these accounts are both enlightening and heartbreaking.

 

[Lillithspeak]

And my question has never been answered in all of these pages. I asked: Not being snotty about it, really want to know: Just what is it that you're all so proud of being southerners for? I mean, there are so many people saying: "I'm a proud southerner" here and yet no one knows what they're proud about being a southerner for it seems. When I say I'm a proud Vermonter, I know why I say that. I don't just say it because I live here, I have actual reasons. What about you Proud Southerners?

 

[DixieBelle]

And my question has never been answered in all of these pages. I asked: Not being snotty about it, really want to know: Just what is it that you're all so proud of being southerners for? I mean, there are so many people saying: "I'm a proud southerner" here and yet no one knows what they're proud about being a southerner for it seems. When I say I'm a proud Vermonter, I know why I say that. I don't just say it because I live here, I have actual reasons. What about you Proud Southerners?

There are many reasons....where to start! Well, we are known for our hospitality and friendliness. That's something to be proud of! We're known for our food...best in the world!...as well as our famous Sweet Tea! Whooooeee! Don't get no better than that! We have our own way of speaking. Just listen to that sweet soft Southern accent...that's the sound of home to me! Also, look at the many influential people who have come out of the South. In music alone, Southerners have had a great influence...Elvis Presley, Buddy Holly, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Charlie Daniels, Hank Williams, and a whole host of Country performers (that list is too long for me to even get started on!), just to name a very few! We are the home of the Southeastern Conference and we are very proud of our college football and basketball, as well as our local highschool athletics! We are known as a hardworking and simple living people for the most part. We love our families and our friends and neighbors are considered as close to family as you can get. We have a history of standing up for what we believe in and protecting our own to the best of our abilities. We are known as being polite...ma'am and sir are still part of our daily vocabulary. We still have gentlemen and ladies here...and chivalry still exists! Money is not the most important thing in life here. God, family, and home all come before money on our list of priorities. Being Southern is not a black or white thing...its a way of life. There are certainly a few classless individuals whose actions are not in keeping with the beliefs of most good Southerners, but they are the exception to the rule. I'm sure there are others who can articulate far better than I, but these are just a few of my reasons. Do I sound too proud? Sure, we have our faults...but the South I spoke of above, that's my home, that's the people I know...that is why I'm a proud to be a Southerner.

 

[msjones21]

I haven't read through all of the responses so I am only going to throw in my .02 based upon the OP.

I live in the South so racism and the whole "Heritage, not Hate" ideology has been a part of my life since day one. I was raised in a home where tolerance towards other races was the norm; however, that doesn't mean that I never heard my family use the "n" word. With that said, despite the fact that I was raised in a southern home my family never displayed the Conferderate flag.

Down here the Confederate flag has long since caused racial tension. When Sonny Perdue became our state governor (Georgia) one of the first items on his itinerary was to change the state flag back to the original Conferderate flag, which stoked the fires of racial division that has been an ongoing battle since the 60's. We thought this debate had ended when Roy Barnes was governor and changed the flag to a more neutral design that appeased everyone except for the die-hard confederate flag-waving rednecks.

I don't have to be an African-American to understand the symbolic nature of the Conferderate flag. To them I'm certain it's just as profound a statement as it would be to the Jewish community if they had a flag with the swastika on it. I'm of the opinion that it should be permissible to display the Confederate flag on your private property (automobiles, outside your house, etc.); however, the line should be drawn when it comes to flying the traditional flag outside of government buildings. The government should not be proudly displaying a flag that serves as a reminder of the enslavement of the black people. I'm not "proud" to be a southerner. My ancestors treated black people unfairly and committed race-related crimes against them. I'm not proud of that. I don't get misty-eyed when I see the Confederate flag. It has no significant meaning to me. Why should we boldly fly a flag that causes so many people discomfort and anger, further creating a hostile division between blacks and whites in the south?