confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ?

[BobRyan]

There is no reference to the status of apostate priests in your OP, Bob. Just deal with that. Otherwise, the whole of your point is in error on its face.

I have underlined it.. highlighted it... quoted it... what is the "other thing" you wanted to see???

Is this one of those "Laurel"-"Yanni" things?

 

[Albion]

Wow, and it only took a half dozen quotes that did not contain the word before one that does was finally produced.

I guess I have a hard time understanding why that kind of cat and mouse approach to discussion is necessary.

 

[☦Marius☦]

I posted this --- (the following) but what say you?

===============================



The Bible does not support the doctrines taught in the Mass.

1. No earthly priests after the cross (Hebrews 7)
2. No powers of the earthly priest - if no priest.
3. No ongoing sacrifice of Christ -- it was "once for all time" Hebrews 10:12 "Otherwise He would need to suffer often" Hebrews 9
4. Forgiveness of sin only comes from Christ - not earthly priest - Acts 4:12
5. No mediator between God and man- except Christ - 1 Timothy 2
no "confecting the body soul blood and divinity of Christ" by any human... nor does God Himself engage in such a thing.

as far as "what we eat" in the communion service "eating literal flesh and blood is worthless - it is My WORDs that have Spirit and LIFE" John 6:63

"the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us" John 1

Think about it - a "memorial" service has no need to "confect the body, blood, soul..." of the person... but an ongoing-repeated sacrifice needs the body,blood,soul,divinity of Christ in the sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:12 "sacrificed once for all time" not "once and ongoing"

12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God

He moves to the next phase "He sat down at the right hand of God" not "he continues to have anything to do with being sacrificed over and over by whoever claims to confect his body blood soul and divinity"



Indeed.. in fact "once for all time" and then He "Sat down at the right hand of God" -- rather than "still looking to be sacrificed each time someone claims to confect the body blood soul and divinity of Christ".

None of those verses in Hebrews refer to the New Covenant, but the fulfillment of the levitical system, and the levitical priesthood.

Several times in the New Testament the phrase "and they went out ministering". The word ministering in Greek is liturgeo, which is equivalent to liturgizing. The liturgy in Latin is the Mass.

The first liturgy was written by the Apostle James, and the second by the Apostle Peter.

The Bible records that people were made sick by taking communion improperly, and that to do so would make you guilty of the Body and Blood of Christ.

It also says we are to confess our sins to each other James 5:16

It also says that we are to obey the orders of the elders appointed over us, for they help us find spiritual good things Hebrews 13:17

You say:

"literal flesh and blood is worthless - it is My WORDs that have Spirit and LIFE" John 6:63

"the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us" John 1"

Looks like you answered your own point. The word of life became flesh, and that flesh is in the Eucharist.

 

[☦Marius☦]

John 20:21-23

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

 

[amariselle]

None of those verses in Hebrews refer to the New Covenant, but the fulfillment of the levitical system, and the levitical priesthood.

Hebrews 9

1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 10:1-25:

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Hebrews 9 & Hebrews 10 most definitely do tell us about the New Covenant. (Which is what the Levitical system pointed to, as a “shadow” of the things to come).

Also, very importantly, these verses are clear that it is ONE sacrifice.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Hebrews 9

1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 10:1-25:

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Hebrews 9 & Hebrews 10 most definitely do tell us about the New Covenant. (Which is what the Levitical system pointed to, as a “shadow” of the things to come).

Also, very importantly, these verses are clear that it is ONE sacrifice.

Right? Which is why the Eucharist is the same sacrifice it was 2000 years ago. Christ's body was the one time sacrifice, the Holy Spirit makes the elements into that same sacrifice.

That is why is was necessary to have the infinite God be the sacrifice, so that that sacrifice would be eternal.

That is why the Orthodox Priest says "once again we offer the this sacrifice without the shedding of blood"

It is one sacrifice. All time is United under one Eucharist, the same Eucharist eternally being served in Heaven.

All life is meant to be eternal communion with God.

2 Peter 1:4
"by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire."

 

[Albion]

Right? Which is why the Eucharist is the same sacrifice it was 2000 years ago. Christ's body was the one time sacrifice, the Holy Spirit makes the elements into that same sacrifice.

That is what is said, of course, but really.... Isn't that just a romantic, even fairy tale kind of Medieval superstition that we all would love to believe if it had any basis? I do not mean to be unpleasant or provocative when I say this, but if we look at the claim calmly, it looks like something that sounds appealing but that's all.

 

[Mountainmike]

I posted this --- (the following) but what say you?

===============================



The Bible does not support the doctrines taught in the Mass.

Since 1/ faith was passed by apostolic tradition, the New Testament only came later, and 2/ since John the apostle clearly knew what he meant by John 6 and 3/ if we study what those taught by john the apostle believed, take ignatius to smyrnaens , then provably you are wrong.

Real presence in the Eucharist is what they taught and what they meant, all of them : quote Justin Martyr " flesh of Jesus"

It is only such as you trying to reinterpret scripture without authority or tradition who come to other false conclusions

 

[amariselle]

Right? Which is why the Eucharist is the same sacrifice it was 2000 years ago.

It was 2,000 years ago, one sacrifice offered ONCE for all.

Christ's body was the one time sacrifice, the Holy Spirit makes the elements into that same sacrifice.

Where is it written in Scripture that the Holy Spirit does this?

Also, if true, then you could perhaps argue that you argree with Scripture (in some mystical fashion) that the Eucharist is the same sacrifice as Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, but you still would be disagreeing with Scripture in the matter of this one sacrifice being offered once for all. (As it is apparently being offered repeatedly)

That is why is was necessary to have the infinite God be the sacrifice, so that that sacrifice would be eternal.

The sacrifice is “eternal” in that it never loses its power to save and is available for all who believe. This does not mean it is continuously offered, or that it must be continuously offered to be efficacious for us all these years later. Scripture is clear that this is not the case. By the ONE sacrifice, offered ONCE, He purged the sin forever of all who believe the Gospel.

That is why the Orthodox Priest says "once again we offer the this sacrifice without the shedding of blood"

I don’t know enough about the Orthodox position to comment on it, but that does sound very similar to the “bloodless sacrifice” of the Catholic Mass.

It is one sacrifice. All time is United under one Eucharist, the same Eucharist eternally being served in Heaven.

Again, a mystical argument that still goes against what Scripture says regarding the ONE sacrifice being offered ONCE for all. (This occurred on the cross at a specific time and place).

All life is meant to be eternal communion with God.

2 Peter 1:4
"by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire."

And how exactly does that verse refer to the “real prescence” in the Eucharist? We are “partakers of the divine nature” through faith in the Gospel (the ONE time, ONCE offered sacrifice of Christ) By this we receive the “Spirit of adoption” as born again believers sealed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[☦Marius☦]

That is what is said, of course, but really.... Isn't that just a romantic, even fairy tale kind of Medieval superstition that we all would love to believe if it had any basis? I do not mean to be unpleasant or provocative when I say this, but if we look at the claim calmly, it looks like something that sounds appealing but that's all.

That is not what the Fathers believe. It is of course for you a matter of faith. But the Lord called it a "hard teaching". Athiest claim all we believe to be a fairy tale superstition. How can men walk on water? How can people raise from the dead? Or water turn to wine? What about Paul's hankerchief healing people, or demonic possession? All seems rather midievil to me.

"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its Sacrifices."
Clement of Rome, 44AD

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."
St Ignatius of Antioch, 80-100AD

It was 2,000 years ago, one sacrifice offered ONCE for all.



Where is it written in Scripture that the Holy Spirit does this?

Also, if true, then you could perhaps argue that you argree with Scripture (in some mystical fashion) that the Eucharist is the same sacrifice as Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, but you still would be disagreeing with Scripture in the matter of this one sacrifice being offered once for all. (As it is apparently being offered repeatedly)



The sacrifice is “eternal” in that it never loses its power to save and is available for all who believe. This does not mean it is continuously offered, or that it must be continuously offered to be efficacious for us all these years later. Scripture is clear that this is not the case. By the ONE sacrifice, offered ONCE, He purged the sin forever of all who believe the Gospel.



I don’t know enough about the Orthodox position to comment on it, but that does sound very similar to the “bloodless sacrifice” of the Catholic Mass.



Again, a mystical argument that still goes against what Scripture says regarding the ONE sacrifice being offered ONCE for all. (This occurred on the cross at a specific time and place).



And how exactly does that verse refer to the “real prescence” in the Eucharist? We are “partakers of the divine nature” through faith in the Gospel (the ONE time, ONCE offered sacrifice of Christ) By this we receive the “Spirit of adoption” as born again believers sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Once for all

One sacrifice, for all time.
The Eucharist is not a new sacrifice. There is no shedding of blood.

It is a transformation into Christ, who was the sacrifice.

I don't understand why that is so hard to understand.

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."

"For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

 

[☦Marius☦]

The Orthodox Church believes the Eucharist to be a sacrifice. As is heard in the Liturgy, "Thine of Thine own we offer to Thee, in all and for all."

1. At the Eucharist, the sacrifice offered is Christ himself, and it is Christ himself who in the Church performs the act of offering: He is both priest and victim.
2. We offer to Thee. The Eucharist is offered to God the Trinity — not just to the Father but also to the Holy Spirit and to Christ Himself. So, what is the sacrifice of the Eucharist? By whom is it offered? and to whom is it offered? In each case the answer is Christ.
3. We offer for all: according to Orthodox theology, the Eucharist is a propitiatory sacrifice, offered on behalf of both the living and the dead.

The Church teaches that the sacrifice is not a mere figure or symbol but a true sacrifice. It is not the bread that is sacrificed, but the very Body of Christ. And, the Lamb of God was sacrificed only once, for all time. The sacrifice at the Eucharist consists, not in the real and bloody immolation of the Lamb, but in the transformation of the bread into the sacrificed Lamb.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Early Christians Believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist

 

[Albion]

That is not what the Fathers believe.

What is not? And how do we know what "the Fathers" believed in this regard?

What you have posted is neither what the Fathers believed nor was it concerned with the issue we were discussing. You cited two Church Fathers, not "the Fathers," and the quotes dealt with related matters, not what was in question.

 

[☦Marius☦]

What is not? And how do we know what "the Fathers" believed in this regard?

What you have posted is neither what the Fathers believed nor was it concerned with the issue we were discussing. You cited two Church Fathers, not "the Fathers," and the quotes dealt with related matters, not what was in question.

We were discussing the Real presence we're we not? Or that is the question you asked. That the real presence was a fairy tale?


Ignatius of Antioch

"Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ."

-"Letter to the Ephesians", paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.

"I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed."

-"Letter to the Romans", paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.

"Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons."

-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D

Justin Martyr

"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

"First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

"God has therefore announced in advance that all the sacrifices offered in His name, which Jesus Christ offered, that is, in the Eucharist of the Bread and of the Chalice, which are offered by us Christians in every part of the world, are pleasing to Him."

"Dialogue with Trypho", Ch. 117, circa 130-160 A.D.

Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: 'I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.' It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it."

-"Dialogue with Trypho", [41: 8-10]

Irenaus of Lyons

[Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies."

Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:

"So then, if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God's gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ's Blood and Body and is His member? As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, 'For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones' (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of 'spiritual' and 'invisible' man, 'for a spirit does not have flesh an bones' (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and 'the grain of wheat falls into the earth' (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ."

-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely

Named Gnosis". Book 5:2, 2-3, circa 180 A.D. "For just as the bread which comes from the earth, having received the invocation of God, is no longer ordinary bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly, so our bodies, having received the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, because they have the hope of the resurrection."

-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely named Gnosis". Book 4:18 4-5, circa 180 A.D

Clement of Alexandria

"The Blood of the Lord, indeed, is twofold. There is His corporeal Blood, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and His spiritual Blood, that with which we are anointed. That is to say, to drink the Blood of Jesus is to share in His immortality. The strength of the Word is the Spirit just as the blood is the strength of the body. Similarly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, - of the drink and of the Word, - is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word.",

-"The Instructor of the Children". [2,2,19,4] ante 202 A.D.,

"The Word is everything to a child: both Father and Mother, both Instructor and Nurse. 'Eat My Flesh,' He says, 'and drink My Blood.' The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients. He delivers over His Flesh, and pours out His Blood; and nothing is lacking for the growth of His children. O incredible mystery!",

-"The Instructor of the Children" [1,6,41,3] ante 202 A.D..

Cyprian of Carthage


"So too the the sacred meaning of the Pasch lies essentially in the fact, laid down in Exodus, that the lamb - slain as a type of Christ - should be eaten in one single home. God says the words: 'In one house shall it be eaten, ye shall not cast its flesh outside.' The flesh of Christ and the Lord's sacred body cannot be cast outside, nor have believers any other home but the one Church.",

-"The Unity of the Catholic Church". Ch.8, circa 249-258 A.D.,

Description of an event in which an infant was taken to a pagan sacrifice and then the mother recovered it and brought it to Mass.

"Listen to what happened in my presence, before my very eyes. There was a baby girl, whose parents had fled and had, in their fear, rather improvidently lift it in the charge of its nurse. The nurse took the helpless child to the magistrates. There, before the idol where the crowds were flocking, as it was too young to eat the flesh, they gave it some bread dipped in what was left of the wine offered by those who had already doomed themselves. Later, the mother recovered her child. But the girl could not reveal or tell the wicked thing that had been done, any more than she had been able to understand or ward it off before. Thus, when the mother brought her in with her while we were offering the Sacrifice, it was through ignorance that this mischance occurred. But the infant, in the midst of the faithful, resenting the prayer and the offering we were making, began to cry convulsively, struggling and tossing in a veritable brain-storm, and for all its tender age and simplicity of soul, was confessing, as if under torture, in every way it could, its consciousness of the misdeed. Moreover, when the sacred rites were completed and the deacon began ministering to those present, when its turn came to receive, it turned its little head away as if sensing the divine presence, it closed its mouth, held its lips tight, and refused to drink from the chalice. The deacon persisted and, in spite of its opposition, poured in some of the consecrated chalice. There followed choking and vomiting. The Eucharist could not remain in a body or mouth that was defiled; the drink which had been sanctified by Our Lord's blood returned from the polluted stomach. So great is the power of the Lord, and so great His majesty!",

-"The Lapsed" Ch. 25, circa 249-258 A.D.,

"The priest who imitates that which Christ did, truly takes the place of Christ, and offers there in the Church a true and perfect sacrifice to God the Father.",

Source: St. Cyprian wrote to the Ephesians circa 258 A.D:,

"There was a woman too who with impure hands tried to open the locket in which she was keeping Our Lord's holy body, but fire flared up from it and she was too terrified to touch it. And a man who, in spite of his sin, also presumed secretly to join the rest in receiving sacrifice offered by the bishop, was unable to eat or even handle Our Lord's sacred body; when he opened his hands, he found he was holding nothing but ashes. By this one example it was made manifest that Our Lord removes Himself from one who denies Him, and that what is received brings no blessing to the unworthy, since the Holy One has fled and the saving grace is turned to ashes.",

-"The Lapsed" Ch. 26, circa 249-258 A.D.,

As the prayer proceeds, we ask and say: 'Give us this day our daily bread.' This can be understood both spiritually and simply, because either understanding is of profit in divine usefulness for salvation. For Christ is the bread of life and the bread here is of all, but is ours. And as we say 'Our Father,' because He is the Father of those who understand and believe, so too we say 'our Bread,' because Christ is the bread of those of us who attain to His body. Moreover, we ask that this bread be given daily, lest we, who are in Christ and receive the Eucharist daily as food of salvation, with the intervention of some more grievous sin, while we are shut off and as non-communicants are kept from the heavenly bread, be separated from the body of Christ as He Himself declares, saying: 'I am the bread of life which came down from heaven. If any man eat of my bread he shall live forever. Moreover, the bread that I shall give is my flesh for the life of the world.' Since then He says that, if anyone eats of His bread, he lives forever, as it is manifest that they live who attain to His body and receive the Eucharist by right of communion, so on the other hand we must fear and pray lest anyone, while he is cut off and separated from the body of Christ, remain apart from salvation, as He Himself threatens, saying: 'Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you.' And so we petition that our bread, that is Christ, be given us daily, so that we, who abide and live in Christ, may not withdraw from His sanctification and body.",

Source: St. Cyprian of Carthage, the Lord's Prayer, 252 A.D., chapter 18:



I could go on and on. Would it matter to you?

 

[amariselle]

Once for all

One sacrifice, for all time.
The Eucharist is not a new sacrifice. There is no shedding of blood.

It is a transformation into Christ, who was the sacrifice.

I don't understand why that is so hard to understand.

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."

"For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

I’ve already addressed these points. In John 6, Jesus is teaching a parable. And yes, active participation in the Lord’s Supper, as an act of remembrance truly does “proclaim Christ’s death until He comes.”

 

[Albion]

We were discussing the Real presence we're we not?

No. We were not. I believe in the Real Presence. All sorts of non-Catholics believe in the Real Presence. The early church apparently believed in the Real Presence. That is not what prompted the first of my replies (post 27).

I quoted you as speaking of the alleged SACRIFICE of Christ in the Mass/divine Liturgy, and it being the SAME sacrifice as Calvary.

 

[amariselle]

The belief that the bread and wine become the literal body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ Jesus through the actions of a Catholic priest is where the issue and it’s associated confusion stems from. The Scriptures do not state that the bread and wine are Christ’s body and blood literally, Jesus was teaching a parable as He so often did when He taught publicly.

John 6, read in context, makes this abundantly clear, as Jesus (after the Jews demanded a sign and brought up their ancestors eating manna in the wilderness) tells them that He is the true bread from Heaven. (John 6:35) Obviously He was not saying He is literal bread. Using physical, material and historical realities, (specifically Jewish ancestral history, which ultimately pointed to Him) Jesus is teaching a spiritual truth, His words, as He says are “spirit and life.” (John 6:63)

First of all in this parable, Jesus emphasizes believing, and He equates eating with believing as He continues teaching.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. -John 6:38-54

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. - John 6:58

And Jesus ends the parable by reiterating that He is speaking about believing (not literally eating and drinking):

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. - John 6:63-64

Here are the two parallel verses from John 6 next to each other to show this:

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Believing on the Son and His sacrifice, (which is what is required for eternal life) is equated with eating. Obviously Jesus is not speaking of cannibalism here, which the Jews understood was reprehensible to God. Many did take His words literally, however, and so they left Him. Many more make the same mistake today, in taking a parable, which was meant to convey a spiritual truth, literally.

Jesus told many other parables as well, where He referred to Himself as the “gate”, a “door”, a “shepherd”, “a vine” etc.

And we must also remember and understand that Jesus gave Himself once, on the cross at a very specific time and place in history, this is not a sacrifice that is ongoing and continual, it is finished. Through the Lord’s Supper we remember the sacrifice which was once for all, we do not and cannot continue it. To claim we can is to say it is in fact unfinished and ongoing. Scripture clearly tells us otherwise.

Jesus gave Himself on the cross, once for all. It is finished and He has risen victorious and is now seated at the right hand of the Father in Heaven. He will return, as promised, just as He left when He ascended. (Not on church alters at the initiation of a priest or pastor).

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. - Matthew 24:23-27

The central claims of the Catholic Mass fly in the face of those verses as the Catholic church claims that Christ is in fact wholly present, body, soul and divinity, on innumerable Catholic alters during every single Mass, over and over again.

Jesus warned about such claims and said “believe not.”

Scripture is clear, numerous times it tells us that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father and He will come a second time. How many times has He been said to return on Catholic alters?

Again, Jesus warned about such claims.

Again, Jesus was teaching a parable to convey spiritual truth, not to be taken literally. It was those who could not understand what He truly meant who believed He was speaking literally.

The sacrifice of the Mass (which is understood and believed to be a “real sacrifice”) is in direct conflict with and contradiction of Scripture.

ONE sacrifice was offered for all, at ONE specific time in history, at ONE specific place. This ONE sacrifice was and is completely and entirely sufficient. It is NOT ongoing or continual. It is FINISHED. We, in and through participation in the Lord’s Supper, remember this ONE sacrifice and proclaim Christ’s death until He comes.

There are no priests who can offer Christ’s sacrifice perpetually/continually. The sacrifice was offered ONCE by Christ on the cross and He Himself is our Great High Priest, Who tore the veil to the Holy of Holies. Christ alone is the Mediator and Intercessor between God and man.

There is no longer a need for any kind of Levitical type priesthood offering a sacrifice for sin on our behalf.

Christ’s sacrifice is finished and it is sufficient. It is not continual and ongoing on every Catholic alter in every single Mass.

 

[Mark_Sam]

I have underlined it.. highlighted it... quoted it... what is the "other thing" you wanted to see???

Apostasy and excommunication are two different things.
"Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him." (Code of Canon Law, §751)

Excommunication is a medicinal spiritual penalty, meant to bring the offender to repentance by depriving him/her from certain rights (receiving/celebrating the Eucharist, holding Church offices, etc.). It is treated in the Code of Canon Law, starting with §1331. So offences incurs automatic excommunication (latae sententiae), whilst some are passed by the bishop or other church authorities (ferendae sententiae).

However, I see your point. The Church has the right to discipline her priests. But the Church cannot remove the mark on the soul from the Sacrament of ordination. Therefore, we have the concept of "valid, but illicit". I don't see the problem here. Most churches practise (or ought to practise) church discipline, but they also should know their limits (e.g. a church cannot "un-baptise" someone).

The Church teaches that the sacrifice is not a mere figure or symbol but a true sacrifice. It is not the bread that is sacrificed, but the very Body of Christ. And, the Lamb of God was sacrificed only once, for all time. The sacrifice at the Eucharist consists, not in the real and bloody immolation of the Lamb, but in the transformation of the bread into the sacrificed Lamb.

Yes, that sums it up nicely.

I truly think it is unfortunate that many Catholics will accuse Protestants and Evangelicals of “misrepresenting” their religion and failing to understand it, even when said Protestants and Evangelicals go directly to official Catholic sources in regard to a particular subject (such as the Mass).

It’s just easier to dismiss the Biblical objections with a comment like “you really do not understand what Catholics teach or believe.” That way no honest examination and discussion of specific doctrines and practices is possible.

Which, as I said before, is unfortunate.

I understand. Yes, the Sacrifice of the Mass is truly a sacrifice, where the Calvary sacrifice of Christ is re-presented on the altar in an unbloody manner (cf. CCC 1362-1367). I'll be that honest. But the problem is that the Protestants often take the "either/or" approach, while the Catholics/Orthodox take the "both/and" approach. The Protestant sees a contradiction between the Cross and the Mass: why do we need another sacrifice if the Cross is sufficient? But to the Catholic, we have Mass precisely because of the Cross, and the Mass makes the Cross present for us in a real, sacramental manner. This also ties nicely in with the Biblical worldview, with the Passover being remembered by being made present in the liturgical celebration of the Hebrews, and with the weekly and yearly sacrifices of the Temple.

Because we constantly sin, we constantly need Christ and his Cross. And we believe that he left us a very real way to experience his Cross and receive him, as often as we need.

The same goes for the priesthood: why do you have priests if Christ is our only High Priest? Precisely because the priests parttake in the priesthood of Christ. The are not priest in addition to Christ, they are priests in Christ our Priest. Again, it's not "either/or", but "both/and".

 

[amariselle]

I understand. Yes, the Sacrifice of the Mass is truly a sacrifice, where the Calvary sacrifice of Christ is re-presented on the altar in an unbloody manner (cf. CCC 1362-1367). I'll be that honest.

Thank you, and yes, I do know that that is what the Catholic Catechism teaches in regard to the Sacrifice of the Mass.

But the problem is that the Protestants often take the "either/or" approach, while the Catholics/Orthodox take the "both/and" approach.

Which could perhaps be argued as valid if the teaching were about something which the Scriptures are silent about, however, this is not the case when it comes to the sacrifice of Christ. (Scripture is clear, One sacrifice offered once).

The Protestant sees a contradiction between the Cross and the Mass:

There is a contradiction. The Scriptures teach one sacrifice offered once, the Catholic Mass is a perpetual/continual sacrifice offered again by the priest during every Mass.

There is no “both/and” possibility, either Scripture is correct, or Catholic teaching and tradition is, because they disagree.

why do we need another sacrifice if the Cross is sufficient?

That is an excellent question, which gets right to the very heart of the problem and to why this difference of belief regarding Christ’s sacrifice is so important. The sufficiency of the one time once offered sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

But to the Catholic, we have Mass precisely because of the Cross, and the Mass makes the Cross present for us in a real, sacramental manner.

This requirement of performing a present day, regularly repeated ritual, does not answer the question you yourself posted above. “Why do we need another sacrifice if the cross is sufficient?”

The ritual does in fact cast doubt on the very sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, since it must be offered up over and over by a priest and partaken of regularly by the faithful in order for us to obtain grace. The initial sacrifice (which Scripture is clear is the only sacrifice and was once offered) is obviously lacking in power to save otherwise it would not need to be continuously re-presented.

Also, it is understood from Scripture that by faith (believing) the cross, Christ’s sacrifice for sin is “present”, which is to say, it is just as real and valid for us as for all who have believed in the one time once offered sacrifice of Christ around 2,000 years ago. That sacrifice has not dimmed or lost any of its power to save through all the years that have passed. It was truly offered, as Scripture says, once for all.

This also ties nicely in with the Biblical worldview, with the Passover being remembered by being made present in the liturgical celebration of the Hebrews, and with the weekly and yearly sacrifices of the Temple.

Which as the letter to the Hebrews makes clear was the Old Covenant that contained the shadow of the better one to come. Passover pointed to Christ, Who is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world. The Old Covenant sacrifices were regularly repeated, the one time and once offered sacrifice of the New Covenant is not. Hebrews 9 & Hebrews 10 explains this very well.

Because we constantly sin, we constantly need Christ and his Cross.

Agreed. And we who have believed have entered into rest. We have been born again, passed from death to life and are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. This is what Christ’s one time and once offered sacrifice on the cross has made possible for all who believe.

And we believe that he left us a very real way to experience his Cross and receive him, as often as we need.

True believers have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. He has promised never to leave us or forsake us. We are “sealed”. So again, if all that Scripture teaches about the absolute sufficiency of the one time once offered sacrifice of Christ on the cross is true (and I obviously believe it is), why the need for a re-presentation of that sacrifice perpetually? Especially when Jesus Himself said “it is finished!”

The same goes for the priesthood: why do you have priests if Christ is our only High Priest? Precisely because the priests parttake in the priesthood of Christ. The are not priest in addition to Christ, they are priests in Christ our Priest. Again, it's not "either/or", but "both/and".

All believers are “priests.”

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light...” - 2 Peter 2:5-9

And Christ Jesus is our High Priest, Mediator and Intercessor between God and man. There is no longer any Levitical type priesthood required to offer sacrifices on behalf of the people.

Once again, there is no “both/and” option. The Catholic church teaches one thing, (that we still need specially ordained priests to offer a repeated/perpetual sacrifice to God on our behalf) and the Bible teaches another (that all true believers are a “royal and holy priesthood” offering up “spiritual sacrifices” that are acceptable to God by Jesus Christ).

Yes, you are free to disagree with the Catholic view. But simply dismissing it altogether by quoting a few verses from the Letter to the Hebrews is a little cheap, honestly.

Which is not what I have done. I have (in this post and others) referred to far more than “a few verses from the Letter to the Hebrews”. Nor have I “simply dismissed” the Catholic position. My disagreement comes from comparing what the Bible teaches to what the Catholic church teaches. They disagree, so I choose Scripture, as I consider Scripture the highest authority as it is the inspired word of God.

 

[☦Marius☦]

The belief that the bread and wine become the literal body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ Jesus through the actions of a Catholic priest is where the issue and it’s associated confusion stems from. The Scriptures do not state that the bread and wine are Christ’s body and blood literally, Jesus was teaching a parable as He so often did when He taught publicly.

John 6, read in context, makes this abundantly clear, as Jesus (after the Jews demanded a sign and brought up their ancestors eating manna in the wilderness) tells them that He is the true bread from Heaven. (John 6:35) Obviously He was not saying He is literal bread. Using physical, material and historical realities, (specifically Jewish ancestral history, which ultimately pointed to Him) Jesus is teaching a spiritual truth, His words, as He says are “spirit and life.” (John 6:63)

First of all in this parable, Jesus emphasizes believing, and He equates eating with believing as He continues teaching.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. -John 6:38-54

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. - John 6:58

And Jesus ends the parable by reiterating that He is speaking about believing (not literally eating and drinking):

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. - John 6:63-64

Here are the two parallel verses from John 6 next to each other to show this:

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Believing on the Son and His sacrifice, (which is what is required for eternal life) is equated with eating. Obviously Jesus is not speaking of cannibalism here, which the Jews understood was reprehensible to God. Many did take His words literally, however, and so they left Him. Many more make the same mistake today, in taking a parable, which was meant to convey a spiritual truth, literally.

Jesus told many other parables as well, where He referred to Himself as the “gate”, a “door”, a “shepherd”, “a vine” etc.

And we must also remember and understand that Jesus gave Himself once, on the cross at a very specific time and place in history, this is not a sacrifice that is ongoing and continual, it is finished. Through the Lord’s Supper we remember the sacrifice which was once for all, we do not and cannot continue it. To claim we can is to say it is in fact unfinished and ongoing. Scripture clearly tells us otherwise.

Jesus gave Himself on the cross, once for all. It is finished and He has risen victorious and is now seated at the right hand of the Father in Heaven. He will return, as promised, just as He left when He ascended. (Not on church alters at the initiation of a priest or pastor).

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. - Matthew 24:23-27

The central claims of the Catholic Mass fly in the face of those verses as the Catholic church claims that Christ is in fact wholly present, body, soul and divinity, on innumerable Catholic alters during every single Mass, over and over again.

Jesus warned about such claims and said “believe not.”

Scripture is clear, numerous times it tells us that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father and He will come a second time. How many times has He been said to return on Catholic alters?

Again, Jesus warned about such claims.

Again, Jesus was teaching a parable to convey spiritual truth, not to be taken literally. It was those who could not understand what He truly meant who believed He was speaking literally.

The sacrifice of the Mass (which is understood and believed to be a “real sacrifice”) is in direct conflict with and contradiction of Scripture.

ONE sacrifice was offered for all, at ONE specific time in history, at ONE specific place. This ONE sacrifice was and is completely and entirely sufficient. It is NOT ongoing or continual. It is FINISHED. We, in and through participation in the Lord’s Supper, remember this ONE sacrifice and proclaim Christ’s death until He comes.

There are no priests who can offer Christ’s sacrifice perpetually/continually. The sacrifice was offered ONCE by Christ on the cross and He Himself is our Great High Priest, Who tore the veil to the Holy of Holies. Christ alone is the Mediator and Intercessor between God and man.

There is no longer a need for any kind of Levitical type priesthood offering a sacrifice for sin on our behalf.

Christ’s sacrifice is finished and it is sufficient. It is not continual and ongoing on every Catholic alter in every single Mass.

I'm not even going to bother replying to you anymore because you aren't even taking what I am saying into consideration, instead just posting the same point over and over.

The Bible is not the only authority. Apostolic tradition is also essential.

We can argue all day every day about what we think verses conclusions are, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter to me because what I follow is the 2000 year old beliefs that the apostles passed down. I know this for a 100% fact after years of searching. 2000 years of fathers, monks, holy men and miracles do not lie to the witness of what I believe.