Conditional or Unconditional

[Terral]

Hi TubaFour:

Tuba >> I was just curious about the land promise because it seems to contradict dispensational dogma which is taken as "gospel" in many circles that the land is an unconditional grant to the people of Israel and which would last forever. Moses seems to say otherwise. That's all.

It is not that the land of Israel is conditional or unconditional (for the umpteenth time). This is about whether the Lord God’s promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (the fathers) are conditional or unconditional. Calling yourself a Dispy or Reformed Christian changing nothing about the truth of God’s Living Word. Practically everyone writing on your thread is saying the same thing, but TubaFour is being thick as a 2x4 either unintentionally or by design (trolling). :0)

Tuba >> Since dispies highly value the literal reading of the scriptures then when you read the Abrahamic covenant, the grant is not to Israel, but to Abraham and his descendants (plural) which include "many nations" as stated in Genesis 17.

No sir. Isaac is called Abraham’s “only son” (Gen. 22:2, 22:12, 22:16) and the Lord God’s Covenant is with Abraham, Isaac (not Ishmael) and Jacob (not Esau).

“Joseph said to his brothers, "I am about to die, but God will surely take care of you and bring you up from this land to the land which He promised on oath to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob." Genesis 50:24.

:So God heard their groaning; and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” Exodus 2:24.

“He said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.” Exodus 3:6.

Abraham is the “father of a multitude of nations” (Genesis 17:4-6), but that has nothing with the Lord God’s promises concerning the “Land of Israel” (Ezekiel 37:11-12). Moses charges the Lord God, saying,

'Look down from Your holy habitation, from heaven, and bless Your people Israel, and the ground which You have given us, a land flowing with milk and honey, as You swore to our fathers.' Deuteronomy 26:15.

If you really think this Promised Land belongs to someone other than the sons of Israel, then by all means make your case.

Tuba >> So, why is the land grant in Genesis 17 limited to a certain subset of Abraham's physical descendants when the bible does not limit it there?

The Lord God has given the Land of Israel (not the Land of Ishmael/Esau) to His chosen race of this earth.

Then Moses and the Levitical priests spoke to all Israel, saying, "Be silent and listen, O Israel! This day you have become a people for the Lord your God.” Deuteronomy 27:9.

We have far too many places in Scripture where the Promised Land is connected directly to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac AND Jacob:

"Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants to whom You swore by Yourself, and said to them, 'I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.'" Exodus 32:13.

David will rule the Promised Land Kingdom “FOREVER.”

"My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons' sons, FOREVER; and David My servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst FOREVER. My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. And the nations [everyone else] will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst FOREVER."'" Ezekiel 37:24-28.

Here you have all the components of “Israel” being “My people” living on “the land that I gave to JACOB My servant” and “living on it . . . FOREVER.” The ‘conditional or unconditional’ characteristics YOU want to ascribe to ‘the land of Israel’ represents an unresolved matter for TubaFour, for some strange reason, when Scripture is just as clear as God’s Word can be.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[TubaFour]

Terrral,

Do you believe that the New Covenant is not for Gentiles? As you know it was made with the house of Israel and the House of Judah. There are many who believe that covenant is not for gentiles (I am a gentile).

The reason I ask is that if you take the position that the land grant is to Israel then to be consistent, you must say the New Covenant is not for gentiles either.

Do I believe that a land grant was to Israel? Yes. The Lord Promised the Land to Israel on condition of obedience to the Mosaic Covenant. That was a national covenant. They didn't obey and were thrown out. The land vomited them out as the Lord promised.

Joshua 21:

45 Not one word of all the good promises that the LORD had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.

Joshua 23:14:
4"And now I am about to go the way of all the earth, and you know in your hearts and souls, all of you, that not one word has failed of all the good things that the LORD your God promised concerning you. All have come to pass for you; not one of them has failed.

The land belongs (as does the whole world) to Christ and those united to Him by faith.

Does the land belong to Israel forever. No, it never did. Because the promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, was a promise to believers (the elect). Paul makes that clear in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and so does the writer to the Hebrews.

FWIW, this issue was hashed in rehashed eons ago and you can still find the threads on this board. I am not a dispie (MAD or otherwise). But, I do believe that if one were to interpret the bible the way dispies do, one would HAVE TO realize that the promise made to Abraham concerning the land is different than that made to Isaac and that made to Jacob, or Moses. At no other time, other than to Abraham does God promise the land to be an eternal possession. And the land grant to Israel as a nation in Sinai is dependent on their obedience.

Clearly, no matter what your theological bent is, one would have to agree that the promise has yet to be fulfilled, because, forever hasn't happened yet, and even if you believe that 1948 is some fulfillment you don't know what going to happen in the next 3000 years (if there is another 3000 years left).

Finally,
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ. Gal 3:16.

BTW, if you read my prior posts on this board, you'll realize that I took a long leave of absence. I took it because of the tone of this place and the personal invective that was freely flying around here. I am back because I thought it would be a constructive discussion with Dispies about whether the land promises are conditional or unconditional given the differences in promises made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses.

aL

PS: Terral, I am not trolling. This as you know is a sticky issue for many Christians in many denominations. People have strong opinions about it both ways, and in many circles if you hold to my beliefs that the OT economy was nothing more than types and shadow of the realities of Christ, you're considered a heretic.

 

[Terral]

Hi TubaFour:

Tuba >> Do you believe that the New Covenant is not for Gentiles?

The New Covenant is for the houses of Israel and Judah (Hebrews 8:8) having nothing to do with the members of “Christ’s body” (1 Cor. 12:27 = that’s us) at all. The Gentiles coming to God through the restoration of the Tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-18) will obtain a relationship with God through that New Covenant that is still ‘future,’ by obeying the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt. 24:14) going to the whole world.

Tuba >> As you know it was made with the house of Israel and the House of Judah. There are many who believe that covenant is not for gentiles (I am a gentile).

Why bring this matter up in your “Conditional or Unconditional” Debate? I am a member of the “Body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) seated with Christ in the heavenly places that are “IN Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6). Some among us are more worried about what different ‘sects’ believe rather than focusing attention on the truth of God’s Living Word . . .

Tuba >> The reason I ask is that if you take the position that the land grant is to Israel then to be consistent, you must say the New Covenant is not for gentiles either.

Stop being ridiculous. Tuba does not understand my theology well enough to be making these kinds of assertions. Just once I am hoping you will “quote >>” me and show one thing errant using Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15.

Tuba >> Do I believe that a land grant was to Israel? Yes. The Lord Promised the Land to Israel on condition of obedience to the Mosaic Covenant.

No sir. This is Tuba’s errant 'interpretation' that everyone here has corrected time and time again.

Tuba >> That was a national covenant. They didn't obey and were thrown out. The land vomited them out as the Lord promised. [snip]

The Lord God has been dealing with the members of the ‘righteous branch’ for 6000 years since the garden and the Promised Land (Genesis 15:18) still belongs to Israel. Period . . .

Tuba >> The land belongs (as does the whole world) to Christ and those united to Him by faith.

Bullony. Our citizenship is ‘in heaven’ (Phil. 3:20) in “His Heavenly Kingdom” (2Tim. 4:18). Tuba is trying to move in on Israel’s earthly inheritance. :0)

Tuba >> Does the land belong to Israel forever. No, it never did. Because the promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, was a promise to believers (the elect). Paul makes that clear in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and so does the writer to the Hebrews.

No sir. Tuba is blinded by Replacement Theology Bullony with no basis in reality whatsoever.

Tuba >> FWIW, this issue was hashed in rehashed eons ago and you can still find the threads on this board.

Tuba has received the same ‘Unconditional’ reply from many people on ‘this thread,’ but you run after the MYTH of Replacement Theology anyway. Anyone wishing to follow Tuba in his error is welcome to do so, but Terral will not be numbered among you. Israel of the flesh and our “Body of Christ” are two totally separate ‘dispensations’ under God.

Tuba >> I am not a dispie (MAD or otherwise).

All kinds of people are blinded by the false Replacement Theology dogma invented by deluded men. I come here to debate with Dispy’s, because they have Scripture ‘rightly divided’ better than most of the denominations IMHO. My best guess is that nobody here will be buying into your Replacement Theology brand of Denominationalism any time soon, but good luck thinning out the herd anyway. :0)

Tuba >> But, I do believe that if one were to interpret the bible the way dispies do, one would HAVE TO realize that the promise made to Abraham concerning the land is different than that made to Isaac and that made to Jacob, or Moses.

There are far too many kinds of Dispy’s walking this planet for TubaFour to be making these kinds of generalizations. The fact is that 2X4 is here to drag unsuspecting Dispy’s into something that will likely benefit nobody, because practically everyone writing on and reading this thread disagrees with your very shady position and interpretations. I would love to be debating you on the points of your Replacement Theology arguments, but 2X4 never got around to making his case for anything. Restating your error time and time again adds no believability to one word coming from 2x4 on any of these topics.

Tuba >> At no other time, other than to Abraham does God promise the land to be an eternal possession.

Really? That is why Tuba ignores everything proving him DEAD WRONG like the quote from Ezekiel 37:24-28 you chose to ignore (like everything else) from Post #21. In fact, all of my arguments on this thread remain standing that prove the Promised Land (Garden, Promised Land, Kingdom) belongs to Israel, which is the reason Tuba keeps dragging out a new piece of paper to begin talking about something else. :0)

Tuba >> And the land grant to Israel as a nation in Sinai is dependent on their obedience.

Nothing like that is mentioned in Ezekiel 37:24-28 where Israel lives on the land FOREVER. :0) What happened to your Replacement Theology theory?

Tuba >> Clearly, no matter what your theological bent is, one would have to agree that the promise has yet to be fulfilled, because, forever hasn't happened yet, and even if you believe that 1948 is some fulfillment you don't know what going to happen in the next 3000 years (if there is another 3000 years left).

Sure we do. The Lord God has given us everything we need to know in His Living Word, which has been quoted to you far too many times on this topic already. Israel is partially blind (Romans 11:25) ,to these things of today, but Paul tells us the outcome,

“For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The deliverer (Elijah = Matt. 17:10-11, Acts 3:20-26) will come from Zion, he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. This is My Covenant with them, when I take away their sins." From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” Romans 11:25-29.

The Lord God is gathering members to “His Heavenly Kingdom” today, but ‘after these things’ “all Israel will be saved.” God is making ready to chain Satan (Rev. 20:2 = Rev. 1:10) and all his evil heavenly authorities of ‘this darkness’ (Eph. 6:12), so the ‘BODY of Christ’ (that’s us) can take over their heavenly seats and run the show during the upcoming 1000 Year Day of the Lord.

We are living through the “2000 Year Mystery Time” containing this “Dispensation of God’s Grace” (Eph. 3:2) shown in red where the members of the “BODY of Christ” are being called through Paul’s “Word of the Cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message. Our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) marks the beginning of the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2, 2Thes. 2:2) where Elijah comes to restore all things AND the ‘Tabernacle Of David’ (Acts 15:16-18) is restored in the ‘blue’ period leading up to the ‘END of the Age.’ We are living between the ‘Two Veils’ of Scripture in the “Holy Place” marked by the Pauline Epistles, while the Kingdom Disciples obeying the “Gospel of the Kingdom” under Elijah stand in the “Court” outside the First Veil and cannot see anything pertaining to “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:26) at all (Israel’s blindness = because of the First Veil).

Tuba >> Finally, Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ. Gal 3:16.

Tuba >> BTW, if you read my prior posts on this board, you'll realize that I took a long leave of absence.

Replacement Theology is certainly based upon the most errant interpretations of Scripture possible, which is the reason so few Dispy’s ever fall for this kind of irrational teaching. Please forgive, but members are coming to your thread to help 2x4 gain some equilibrium on this “Unconditional Land of Israel” Topic and not for absorbing any great wisdom . . .

Tuba >> I took it because of the tone of this place and the personal invective that was freely flying around here.

This happens anytime we begin sharing views on Politics, Sex or Religion as a rule and not as the exception. Some of us have all kinds of reasons for taking long breaks from posting here.

Tuba >> I am back because I thought it would be a constructive discussion with Dispies about whether the land promises are conditional or unconditional given the differences in promises made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses.

We disagree. Tuba is here to paste Replacement Theology Propaganda in this Dispy Forum. :0)

Tuba >> PS: Terral, I am not trolling. This as you know is a sticky issue for many Christians in many denominations.

Tuba has no case for handing the Land OF ISRAEL out to anyone and he is purposely avoiding our collective arguments against his very feeble position. To then come back with the same nonsense again and again can be characterized in many ways . . .

Tuba >> People have strong opinions about it both ways, and in many circles if you hold to my beliefs that the OT economy was nothing more than types and shadow of the realities of Christ, you're considered a heretic.

With thousands of denominations of professing Christians, there is no shortage of heretics for anyone selling your brand of Denominationalism. Personally I cannot imagine why anyone would want to trade “citizenship in heaven” in “His Heavenly Kingdom” for a chunk of land on this earth. :0)

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[TubaFour]

Thanks Terral.. Appreciate your response! You confirmed my initial view of this board. Time hasn't changed anything!!

aL

 

[Notrash]

To Holdon and LDG,

What are there diffences in the words Promise, Prophecy, fulfilled prophecy, (400 yrs later), covenant and conditional covenant.

Is there a similarity between Gods' offer or promise to the nation of Israel of an "Eternal" land Grant based on a conditional covenant, and the Eternal Life that Adam was born into but was meant to be kept (at that time) by a condition of not eating of the fruit of knowledg of good AND evil.? If that similarity was designed by God to show that as long as Satan and rebellion or jealousy towards God exists, man through "law" and temptation will fail irregardless if it is one rule to an individual or multiple rules to a group effort.

Thus the land promise to Israel was "FOREVER" just as Adam was born into a promised "FOREVER", but both were conditional on obedience. Where the law is, sin abounds' and both were forcast for failure as long as Satan and Law both exist.
Those in Christ, are not under law, but under grace through faith, just as Adam/Eve came under faith by believing in the seed of the woman and agreeing to bear children and recieved the sign of clothing of animal skins. So also, the nation of Israel recieved the 'sign' of circumcison as a nation. But because the failure of the nation was forecast and foreknown, this pointed towards a time of the New Covenant, when through the blood of Christ, individuals with faith in Him, can enter "with hats off" and face to face into the holy of holies and direct father/son relationship with "The Ancient of Days" through the sin sacrifice atonement of our older Brother and Lord Jesus. We now become a 'spiritual nation' of those circumcised of the heart (mind) and having a direct (hats off) communiion with the Father.

The Spiritual "all Israel" sons of God through and in Christ are now both Individually saved from the judgement of Sin invoked by Adam, and corporately saved as a 'nation' unto a eternal promised land and heavenly inheiritance. I don't know yet if that manifestation of the heavenly inheiritence is on this earth after it being remade by fire, or in some other dimension or place?

 

[Terral]

Hi TubaFour:

TubaFour >> Thanks Terral.. Appreciate your response! You confirmed my initial view of this board. Time hasn't changed anything!!

This Board is build upon the concept of registered members providing their own Scriptural interpretations AND everyone deciding if anyone is approved (1Cor. 11:19) before God (2Tim. 2:15), OR if everyone involved is full of hot air. :0) I see no Biblical support for your Replacement Theology interpretation of Scripture, but please try again if anything comes to mind . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Hi Notrash:

Notrash >> What are there differences in the words Promise, Prophecy, fulfilled prophecy, (400 yrs later), covenant and conditional covenant.

Differences in words? :0) The point here is that the Lord God of the OT who formed Adam from the dust of the ground is our Lord Jesus Christ and His calling and gifts to Israel are irrevocable. Those obedient to our gospel of Christ’s shed blood (1Cor. 15:1-4) represent the “BODY of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) having no inheritance in the Middle East at all. Zero. The Promised Land (Gen. 15:18) belongs to Israel and is the “Land of Israel” (Eze. 37:11-12) for His “Royal Priesthood, Holy Nation” and “Chosen Race” (1Peter 2:9) on this earth. TubaFour holds to a “Replacement Theology” interpretation of Scripture that FAILS to recognize ‘our’ (Body of Christ’s) citizenship IN HEAVEN (Phil. 3:20) and “inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God” (Eph. 5:5) in “His HEAVENLY Kingdom” (2Tim. 4:18). Replacement Theology is a false doctrine invented by deluded men working to force the member of Christ’s body into fixing his eyes on things OF THIS EARTH rather than on “things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.” (Col. 3:1). The differences in words are never going to change these simple facts that distinguish Israel of the flesh (Romans 9:1-5) from the members of Christ’s body as the “Children of the Promise” (Romans 9:6-8), as two totally separate ‘dispensations/administrations’ under God.

Notrash >> Is there a similarity between Gods' offer or promise to the nation of Israel of an "Eternal" land Grant based on a conditional covenant, and the Eternal Life that Adam was born into but was meant to be kept (at that time) by a condition of not eating of the fruit of knowledge of good AND evil?

Your question appears to be taken from my comments atop Post #15, or Post #21. There are many similarities that connect the dots between MANY Bible principals with regard to this Creation (heavens, heaven and earth) the Garden of Eden (Adam, Eve, her seed), the Promised Land (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel) and David’s coming Kingdom that lasts ‘forever’ (Eze. 37:24-28*). The short of a very long story is that “David is Adam” ruling on the “Throne of David” forever* in the restored Kingdom of God on earth AS IT IS in heaven. This “creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, IN HOPE that the creation itself will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.” Romans 8:20-22. Adam (before Eve and her seed were taken out = Gen. 2:7) represents the perfect ‘Eth ‘Erets of Genesis 1:1 (The Earth) with the heavens, heaven and earth all contained “IN him.” Eve (water witness) and her seed (blood witness) coming out of Adam’s side (Gen. 2:20-22) is a microcosm (smaller version) of the earth (water witness) and heaven (blood witness) coming out of the perfect Creation’s side ( like Christ on the cross) that is being subjected to futility IN HOPE.

The Scriptural types teach that Isaac (blood witness) and Israel (water witness) were taken out of Abraham’s side (father of many nations like Adam = spirit witness) and that Israel of the flesh stands in the ‘water witness’ (helper/intercessor/priestly) position of Eve (for Adam and her seed) and the Holy Spirit (for the Father and Son). Therefore, Israel of this earth has been chosen and called to become the ‘helper’ of all Gentiles (spirit witnesses) coming to God through His chosen water witness race.

Most people fail to realize that “. . . it was NOT Adam who was deceived, but woman (water witness) being deceived, fell into transgression.” (1Tim. 2:14). This means that Adam is being subjected to the "same futility" by God like this Creation, as the Lord God (Christ) has been dealing with His two witnesses (Adam = Joshua, David, Elijah, John the Baptist, the prophet AND Eve = Noah, Moses, Bathsheba) in many ‘skins’ (Gen. 3:21) from the very beginning. Scripture (OT and NT) tells the story of how the Lord God (Christ) of HEAVEN (Isa. 66:1) has been restoring and consecrating the members of Adam’s body (angels) and Eve’s body (men) back into their Singularity Expression forms (perfect/mature) of Genesis 1:1. Elijah coming to restore the hearts of the fathers (Mal. 4:5-6) and ‘all things’ (Matt. 17:10-11) is Adam (as the prophet) coming to rejoin every earthly host (men = members of Eve’s body) with their ‘heavens’ counterpart (angels = members of Adam’s body) where the “Body of Christ” (that’s us) judge the world AND the angels (1Cor. 6:2-3), so BOTH can be rejoined in Heavenly matrimony. The only way Satan’s evil seed (your seed = Gen. 3:15) could become intertwined with ‘her seed’ is for Eve to eat from the forbidden tree AND for her to feed the heavens counterpart to Adam, which found Adam being subjected to the same identical futility that God placed upon this Creation. Therefore, the garden family’s fall AND Israel’s ‘transgression’ (Romans 11:11) represent an identical ‘subjected to futility’ process originating with God Himself, so the evil seed can be rooted out and destroyed making the provision for the restoration of all things (Acts 3:21) this creation and the Garden Family have been seeking from the beginning. David (Eze. 37:24-28) is Adam and ‘all Israel’ being saved (Rom. 11:26) represents the members of his body (Eve) being restored to Genesis 1:1 perfection through the covenant relationship BOTH have with the Lord God throughout all the ages to come.

Try looking at the principals of the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1-8) in a completely different way by realizing Elijah is the ‘spirit witness’ (Adam) and Moses is the ‘water witness’ (Eve) standing on either side of Christ (blood witness) summing up BOTH into Himself (Eph. 1:9-10 = heavens and earth). Moses has a myriad of people baptized into his body (1Cor. 10:1-5), just like those of us "baptized into Christ" (Gal. 3:27) ‘IN Christ Jesus’ (Eph. 2:6) represent the members of Christ’s body (1Cor. 12:27) even now by obeying the Gospel. Elijah went up to heaven without seeing death (2Kings 2:11), because he (Adam) represents all the angels (from the heavens) also baptized into his body, even if we can only extrapolate this knowledge by a careful examination of all the types. Figure 2 shows God (on top in golden yellow) AND the Word (F+S+HS) upon the altar facing your right (God Restoring His Son) AND The Adamic Creation (heavens, heaven and earth) below Him also facing your right with the heavens (containing the angels) representing Adam’s spirit, the Kingdom of Heaven representing Adam’s soul and the New Earth representing Adam’s physical body (Eve) being restored. The “Body of Moses” stands upon the ‘sea of glass’ (Rev. 4:6, 15:2) AND the “Body of Elijah” (their angelic greater half) stands upon the invisible sea directly on the other side of the Lamb where ‘we’ (Body of Christ) have already been seated as the members of His BODY. This means that ‘our’ angelic (Adam) and human (Eve) halves are restored to immortality (1Cor. 15:51-53) at our Rapture (1Thes. 4:16-17), as the ‘blood witnesses’ (IN Christ’s body) judging our water (men) and spirit (angel) witness counterparts standing and working in anticipation of joining us IN Christ via the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:5-10) that ends every age. That’s right! Men stand in Eve’s position of being deceived and their angelic counterparts stand in Adam’s position of not being deceived, until as members of the Kingdom ‘Bride’ (John 3:29) THEY eventually join us by works (James 2:20-24) IN Christ Jesus in the ‘center of the throne’ (Rev. 7:17) and in the ‘blood witness’ central section of New Jerusalem.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Notrash]

Hi Notrash:
Terral

Hi Terral,
Post IGNORED:
To Holdon and LDG,

 

[Terral]

Hi Notrash:

Notrash >> If that similarity was designed by God to show that as long as Satan and rebellion or jealousy towards God exists, man through "law" and temptation will fail irregardless if it is one rule to an individual or multiple rules to a group effort.

The similarities definitely exist, but God’s plan includes the restoration of ‘all things’ (try to wrap your head around what ALL means . . .) for ‘her seed,’ but God’s wrath and condemnation for the members of “your seed” going into the lake of fire. This is the reason God allows the tares (your seed) and the wheat (her seed) to be sown together (Matthew 13:30) for the “time of the harvest” where the tares are burned up and the wheat is put into the barn. Eve represents the entire visible universe (the earth) where the wheat and tares are being sown, but only the wheat is allowed to be reunited with the Adamic (angelic) greater half to receive immortality; which finds this creation eventually obtaining the glory of the children of God being conformed to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:29).

Notrash >> Thus the land promise to Israel was "FOREVER" just as Adam was born into a promised "FOREVER", but both were conditional on obedience.

No sir. This is where Notrash appears to be falling for the delusions created by this false Replacement Theology nonsense. The Lord God (Christ) is working with Adam (Elijah/David), Eve (Moses/Bathsheba) and Israel, so that ‘all Israel will be saved’ and ‘all things’ are eventually restored. Adam’s fall (like Israel’s) is just part of the ‘subjected to futility’ process, according to the will of God Himself.

Notrash >> Where the law is, sin abounds' and both were forcast for failure as long as Satan and Law both exist.

Your statement here represents a problem we run into, when members make their posts using no Scriptural references to support the substance of their convictions. Anyone can return to Post #25 to see a ton of Notrash’s opinion, but a reluctance to support anything using God’s Living Word. Satan will continue to ‘exist’ in the lake of fire (Rev. 20:11-15), but with no influence as the ‘prince of the power of the air’ (Eph. 2:2) or the “god of this world” (2Cor. 4:3-4) that he enjoys today as we speak. A reading of David (Adam) ruling ‘forever’ proves your statement above being absolutely false.

"My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons' sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."'" Ezekiel 37:24-28.

“My ordinances” and “My statues” will be observed by the disciples of David’s forever kingdom on earth ‘as it is’ in heaven. The difference will be the location ‘where’ the Lord God writes those ordinances, not on tablets of stone, but upon the tablets of men’s hearts. Look again at the diagram above to realize “New Jerusalem” represents Adam’s new heart (administration) where the heavens (angels) and earth (men) are eventually summed up throughout all the ages to come. That process of restoration beginning (Rev. 21:1+) marks the time that God will also give His earthly hosts a brand new heart (mirroring this Adamic Creation), so each disciple of David's kingdom can then walk in “My ordinances” and “My statutes” to observe them. Men currently are predisposed to SIN and stumbling around in the darkness, because Satan is the ‘god of this world’ and this creation remains in a very much ‘fallen’ (darkness = Gen. 1:2) condition ruled by the evil powers of ‘this darkness’ (Eph. 6:12).

Notrash >> Those in Christ, are not under law, but under grace through faith, just as Adam/Eve came under faith by believing in the seed of the woman and agreeing to bear children and received the sign of clothing of animal skins.

We disagree. “Her seed” represents all the members of Eve’s body and even those to incarnate as men and women throughout all the ages to come. Adam and Eve continue to be given animal skins (skins of men and women) in the principals described above, so the Lord God (Christ) can continue dealing with His “son of God”; until as David he sits on an earthly throne ‘forever.’ The Lord God will also bring Israel along through many trials and tribulations, but to eventually become joined to Him through the covenant of marriage.

Notrash >> So also, the nation of Israel received the 'sign' of circumcision as a nation. But because the failure of the nation was forecast and foreknown, this pointed towards a time of the New Covenant, when through the blood of Christ, individuals with faith in Him, can enter "with hats off" and face to face into the holy of holies and direct father/son relationship with "The Ancient of Days" through the sin sacrifice atonement of our older Brother and Lord Jesus. We now become a 'spiritual nation' of those circumcised of the heart (mind) and having a direct (hats off) communion with the Father.

The problem with your theory is that Israel receives the “Holy Spirit” (water witness = Helper) from the Holy of Holies (see diagram) within a Levitical framework called the “ministry of death” (2Cor. 3:7) and the “ministry of condemnation” (2Cor. 3:9). Paul’s conclusion is that, “what had glory, in this case has NO GLORY because of the glory that surpasses it” (2Cor. 3:10), which finds Israel of the flesh receiving the short end of the stick; until they graduate from this ‘water witness’ compartment into the Heavenly Promised Land where “I and the Father are One” (John 10:30) on the ‘blood witness’ side of the First Veil. In other words, you are attempting to ascribe “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3) characteristics of “Grace Doctrine” for the “BODY of Christ” to a Prophetic Kingdom ‘BRIDE’ that must obtain those things by WORKS (James 2:20-24) over a very, very long period spanning MANY ages to come. This is the way God intends to make Israel jealous (Deut. 32:21, Romans 10:19, 11:11) that seems to have escaped your notice . . .

Notrash >> The Spiritual "all Israel" sons of God through and in Christ are now both Individually saved from the judgment of Sin invoked by Adam, and corporately saved as a 'nation' unto a eternal promised land and heavenly inheritance.

Again, maybe we can know your authority for making such interpretations, if Notrash would kindly support his statements using Scripture. Israel (AS A NATION) is to be raised up and led into the land of Israel (Eze. 37:11-12) and live in that earthly kingdom FOREVER (Eze. 37:24-28), according to the truth of God’s Living Word. If you want to see a blank stare from anyone, then simply begin talking to a practicing Jew about going to heaven. :0)

Notrash >> I don't know yet if that manifestation of the heavenly inheritance is on this earth after it being remade by fire, or in some other dimension or place?

This entire universe is remade again and again and again throughout all the ages to come with Israel living on the New Earth AND the “BODY of Christ” living in “Jerusalem above” (Gal. 4:26) the Heavenly Counterpart.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Hi Notrash:

Notrash >> Hi Terral, Post IGNORED: To Holdon and LDK,

Your name appears atop my two posts above (#27 + #29), because we have points of disagreement on this “Conditional or Unconditional” Topic. However, my posts are written for the benefit of the ‘unbiased’ third party reader judging everyone writing on this thread, whether Notrash wishes to begin supporting his assertions with Scripture or not. Anyone finding anything errant in any of my posts is welcome to ‘quote >>’ that to offer your opposing views using Scripture (2Tim. 2:15). Since Notrash has no supported rebuttal arguments to offer, then perhaps we are in complete agreement. :0)

If Notrash or anyone 'quotes >>' from my work to offer opposing arguments using Scripture, then you can bet the house the LAST thing on my mind is to ignore them . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Notrash]

Hi Notrash:

Your name appears atop my two posts above (#27 + #29), because we have points of disagreement on this “Conditional or Unconditional” Topic. However, my posts are written for the benefit of the ‘unbiased’ third party reader judging everyone writing on this thread, whether Notrash wishes to begin supporting his assertions with Scripture or not. Anyone finding anything errant in any of my posts is welcome to ‘quote >>’ that to offer your opposing views using Scripture (2Tim. 2:15). Since Notrash has no supported rebuttal arguments to offer, then perhaps we are in complete agreement. :0)

If Notrash or anyone 'quotes >>' from my work to offer opposing arguments using Scripture, then you can bet the house the LAST thing on my mind is to ignore them . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

My questions and observations had nothing to do with your posts. I know your positions from before and do not read your posts. My observations and ideas were directed toward LDK and Holdens contributions as well as the OP.
Cheers,
Not rash.

 

[Terral]

Hi Notrash:

Notrash >> My questions and observations had nothing to do with your posts.

We agree. Notrash’s posts (like #25) are written under TubaFour’s “Conditional or Unconditional” Promised Land Topic with the errant statements addressed line by line in Post #27. Therefore, my supported arguments against your observations have everything to do with Notrash’s posts on this thread. If Notrash wishes to address individual members on any unrelated subject, then the Private Messaging System appears to be working just fine. Otherwise, your errant comments on ‘this topic’ are open to challenge by any registered member interested in writing on this topic . . .

Notrash >> I know your positions from before and do not read your posts.

If that were the truth, then we would not be having this one-sided conversation. The fact is that Notrash has voiced his unsupported opinions on this topic and now cannot defend anything using Scripture (2Tim. 2:15), which represents the ‘same old story’ from our previous encounters on similar topics in this same Dispensationalism Forum. My distinguished debating adversary can save us all this fuss by simply posting the Bible interpretations that he ‘can’ defend using Scripture AND by standing upon those convictions when another registered member makes these kinds of challenges to his explanations. If anyone here sees one thing wrong in any of my posts, then please take a moment to ‘quote >>’ that to show everyone ‘the truth’ using God’s Living Word. My only choice will be to offer supported defending arguments, OR to submit to the truth coming from your direction in the event that you expose my nakedness. However, your reluctance to defend one word of your testimony is a sign that Notrash was not serious about writing on this topic in the first place. Thank you for allowing everything from my rebuttal to remain standing . . .

Notrash >> My observations and ideas were directed toward LDK and Holdens contributions as well as the OP.

Really? Please forgive, but you quoted nobody to begin making these grandiose assertions in Post #25, which represents a ‘grandstanding’ attempt to influence these readers using Notrash’s unsupported opinions apart from quoting one verse of Scripture at all. Placing another party’s name atop your post has nothing to do with Notrash supporting his assertions using Scripture, OR defending those views when challenged by another member writing on TubaFour’s Topic. You give yours and I will do the same and everyone here can judge us both. Right? Of course. However, that process of determining which side is ‘approved’ (1Cor. 11:19) works only if ‘both sides’ are willing to defend the substance of their interpretations using Scripture. We show ourselves approved to God by rightly dividing the word of truth (2Tim. 2:15). Right? Correct again – but that means Notrash must make some attempt to support his statements, which we both know Notrash is unwilling or unable to do. Thanks again and God bless you,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[holdon]

The Spiritual "all Israel" sons of God through and in Christ are now both Individually saved from the judgement of Sin invoked by Adam, and corporately saved as a 'nation' unto a eternal promised land and heavenly inheiritance. I don't know yet if that manifestation of the heavenly inheiritence is on this earth after it being remade by fire, or in some other dimension or place?

What you mean by "spiritual Israel" etc. are just those that are saved through faith in God.
Before Abraham, Israel didn't exist and there was no mention of a land to be given or inherited, yet people were saved.
Outside the Israel of the Old Testament there were still people saved and did not belong to Israel. (Nor were all saved that were from Israel.)
So, it is now in this dispensation between Pentecost and the Rapture: those that believe are not included into Israel, but into the Church.
Still, other groups will be saved after the Rapture (the Church being gone) and not be included into Israel.
This all results in different groups, not thrown together by some poor interpretation of Scripture, but all saved on the same basis: faith in God.

But talking about a "Church from Adam onward" or "Israel from Adam onward" is not Scriptural. Nor does it make one the other.

 

[Notrash]

But talking about a "Church from Adam onward" or "Israel from Adam onward" is not Scriptural. Nor does it make one the other.

Talking of the church, in the sense of the church being the Family of God in Christ, from Adam onward seems to be Scriptural. Abel was pronounced 'righteous' by Christ and a prophet.
Matt 23:25, That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Heb 11:4. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

And Moses is said to have suffered for the reproach of Christ, not only for the benefit of 'his people'.
By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Even though Christ had not appeared "in the flesh", Israel was to testify towards Christ. Moses' reproach for his people was all about that, not about some superior God chosen race.

Technically speaking though, your likely correct.

The main point is to notice a similarity of the conditional Eternal life offered to Adam kept to the positive side in the Garden before sin arrived and the conditional "forever" land/nation covenant that was also posessed and kept to the positive side through the time of Joshua, but then after his descendants apparently were not taught the laws and did not follow everything that was commanded them nor did they know the wandering in the wilderness nor the captivity in Egypt failed to drive out the people from their cities under Judah.

 

[holdon]

Talking of the church, in the sense of the church being the Family of God in Christ, from Adam onward seems to be Scriptural. Abel was pronounced 'righteous' by Christ and a prophet.
Matt 23:25, That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Heb 11:4. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

And Moses is said to have suffered for the reproach of Christ, not only for the benefit of 'his people'.
By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Technically speaking though, your likely correct.

The main point is to notice a similarity of the conditional Eternal life offered to Adam kept to the positive side and kept in the Garden before sin arrived and the conditional "forever" land/nation covenant that was also posessed and kept to the positive side through the time of Joshua, but then after his descendants apparently were not taught the laws and did not follow everything that was commanded them nor did they know the wandering in the wilderness nor the captivity in Egypt failed to drive out the people from their cities under Judah.

As far as conditionality goes, different frameworks exist. I tried to show this somewhere earlier in this thread I believe. There is a land promise to Abraham and his seeds conditional upon circumcision. Then there are more specific land promises to Isaac and Jacob and further in Sinai. These can be seen more or less as concentric frames. Breaking the Sinai frame does not necessarily mean breaking the Jacob frame, etc..
Later in the yet to be established New Covenant with the houses of Israel and Jacob, the conditionality of the old covenants will be removed/fulfilled because God will circumsize all their (Israel's) hearts, write His law on their hearts and thus give them the land forever.

 

[Notrash]

Later in the yet to be established New Covenant with the houses of Israel and Jacob, the conditionality of the old covenants will be removed/fulfilled because God will circumsize all their (Israel's) hearts, write His law on their hearts and thus give them the land forever.

This underlined part is quite the contention of disagreement. The principles underlying the contention are the source of the discussion in the Hermeneutic thread.

This is a good topic begun by Tuba4. It deserves some study into weather that land dimensions to Abraham was part of a prophecy of what was to happen in 400 yrs and thus perhaps the conditionality of giving the land to the descendants was not discussed at that time, or if it was an actual unconditional promise as many prefer to think.

Abraham himself was given 'all the land that he could see' as part of his reward of faith.
Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

To whom does God refer to as His "seed" and is forever a conditional forever? Notice that this is not part of the statements given to Abraham when he was obedient in coming out of Ur.
12:1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Abraham here appears to be a type of Christ Himself which I never previously considered.
Shortly after this statement,
Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite [was] then in the land. And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Then Abram asks "And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
God's response with the dark vision is And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land [that is] not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites [is] not yet full. And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Then we go to Chapter 17 with the command for Abram to walk with God and be perfect before him, and the covenant of circumcision.

So there is much to digest and contemplate especially with Pauls refinement that the promises are fulfilled in Christ.

 

[Victorious1]

Hi TubaFour:

The New Covenant is for the houses of Israel and Judah (Hebrews 8:8) having nothing to do with the members of “Christ’s body” (1 Cor. 12:27 = that’s us) at all. The Gentiles coming to God through the restoration of the Tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-18) will obtain a relationship with God through that New Covenant that is still ‘future,’ by obeying the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt. 24:14) going to the whole world.

Hello Terral,
Unless I am misunderstanding your above statement, the New Covenant has everything to do with the Body of Christ. God opened the door for the Gentiles to partake of the New Covenant, which actually belonged to Israel. However, they rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah, and lost out on the blessings of the New Covenant which now belong to the Gentiles/Jews who believe.

Matthew 26:28:
For this is my blood of the new testament [Gr. diatheke = covenant], which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

I Corinthians 11:25:
After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament [diatheke covenant] in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.

It is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ that our sins are remitted and we are saved, born again of God's Spirit. Every born-again Christian (Jew or Gentile) make up the Body of Christ. So how can you say that the New Covenant has nothing to do with the Body of Christ?

The New Covenant actually came into effect on the day of Pentecost with the receiving of God's gift of holy spirit by Jews and Gentiles which is still occurring in this Age of Grace.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Hi Notrash,

What are there diffences in the words Promise, Prophecy, fulfilled prophecy, (400 yrs later), covenant and conditional covenant.

These terms are not synonymous. A covenant is a formal, ratified agreement between two parties. The terms of a covenant often contain specific promises. These promises might be fulfilled, others might have an ongoing fulfillment and still others are yet to be fulfilled.

Is there a similarity between Gods' offer or promise to the nation of Israel of an "Eternal" land Grant based on a conditional covenant, and the Eternal Life that Adam was born into but was meant to be kept (at that time) by a condition of not eating of the fruit of knowledg of good AND evil.?

Dude, Adam wasn't born.

Once Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, that was it. They were forced out of Eden and never returned. The nation of Israel on the other hand has been exiled and then they returned to the land. What is the basis for which the Israelites return to the land?

Its Gen 15:9-21. This covenant was "cut" as an unconditional covenant. Abraham asked God how he could be sure he would possess the land. God's response was to ratify the covenant through sacrifices. And God said to Abraham in verse 18, "To your descendants I give this land..."

Thus the land promise to Israel was "FOREVER" just as Adam was born into a promised "FOREVER", but both were conditional on obedience. Where the law is, sin abounds' and both were forcast for failure as long as Satan and Law both exist.

From a dispensationalist view, the land promise to Israel will be fulfilled in the millennial kingdom, which lasts 1,000 years. After that comes the eternal state.

Those in Christ, are not under law, but under grace through faith, just as Adam/Eve came under faith by believing in the seed of the woman and agreeing to bear children and recieved the sign of clothing of animal skins. So also, the nation of Israel recieved the 'sign' of circumcison as a nation. But because the failure of the nation was forecast and foreknown, this pointed towards a time of the New Covenant, when through the blood of Christ, individuals with faith in Him, can enter "with hats off" and face to face into the holy of holies and direct father/son relationship with "The Ancient of Days" through the sin sacrifice atonement of our older Brother and Lord Jesus. We now become a 'spiritual nation' of those circumcised of the heart (mind) and having a direct (hats off) communiion with the Father.

The contrast of covenants in the Bible is not between the Abrahamic covenant and the New, but between the Mosaic covenant and the New covenant.

LDG

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

This is a good topic begun by Tuba4.

And I hope Tuba4 can come back. His questions and comments are most welcome here.

It deserves some study into weather that land dimensions to Abraham was part of a prophecy of what was to happen in 400 yrs and thus perhaps the conditionality of giving the land to the descendants was not discussed at that time, or if it was an actual unconditional promise as many prefer to think.

I don't think there is any question that Gen 15:9-21 should be treated as an unconditional covenant - its in the royal land grant type of the ANE covenant. And there are no conditions. Gen 17 though is a conditional covenant in the suzerain-vassal type of ANE covenant. The Gen 17 covenant that God made with Abraham does have conditions.

Abraham himself was given 'all the land that he could see' as part of his reward of faith.
Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

To whom does God refer to as His "seed" and is forever a conditional forever? Notice that this is not part of the statements given to Abraham when he was obedient in coming out of Ur.

"Seed" is a reference to Abraham's offspring or descendants. More specifically, its to the descendants through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as progressive revelation made clear later in Scripture.

12:1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Abraham here appears to be a type of Christ Himself which I never previously considered.

Dispensationalists interpret the "earth be blessed" as related to the present age ongoing spread of the gospel, and that those accepting Christ - Abraham's descendant - are also "blessed" by him.

So there is much to digest and contemplate especially with Pauls refinement that the promises are fulfilled in Christ.

Yes. But one must be careful to keep in mind progressive revelation, and interpret the passages in Genesis as they stand on their own. These passages' meaning do not depend entirely on the NT - they already had significant meaning for Abraham and his descendants.


LDG

 

[Terral]

Hi Victorious1:

Terral Original >> The New Covenant is for the houses of Israel and Judah (Hebrews 8:8) having nothing to do with the members of “Christ’s body” (1 Cor. 12:27 = that’s us) at all. The Gentiles coming to God through the restoration of the Tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-18) will obtain a relationship with God through that New Covenant that is still ‘future,’ by obeying the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt. 24:14) going to the whole world.

Victorious >> Unless I am misunderstanding your above statement, the New Covenant has everything to do with the Body of Christ. God opened the door for the Gentiles to partake of the New Covenant, which actually belonged to Israel. However, they rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah, and lost out on the blessings of the New Covenant which now belong to the Gentiles/Jews who believe.

Matthew 26:28: For this is my blood of the new testament [Gr. diatheke = covenant], which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

We most certainly disagree. You were shown Scripture (Heb. 8:8) proving the “New Covenant” will be made between the Lord God and the Houses of Israel and Judah, but then choose to misinterpret elements of “Prophecy” AND apply those things to the Mystery “BODY of Christ” (Eph. 4:12 = that’s us) never addressed even once by Christ in the Four Gospels ANYWHERE. For who has Christ died in Matthew 26? Nobody. How many Gentiles are seated with Christ observing the “Lord’s Passover” (Exodus 12:11, Leviticus 23:5, Numbers 9:5) in keeping with Levitical Ordinances of Mosaic Law??? None! How many people in the Four Gospels are ‘saved’ by God’s ‘grace’ through ‘faith’ in the ‘blood’ sacrifice having access to the ‘redemption’ that is “IN Christ Jesus”?? ZERO! I challenge everyone here to find just one, because NONE exist in your Bible anywhere. The ONLY “Gospel” of the Four Gospels and early Acts (before Paul’s conversion) is the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Gospel #1), which is God’s tool for gathering members to the Prophetic Kingdom “Bride” (John 3:29 = Church #1). The Lord’s Last Passover Supper is where Christ is making the ‘provision’ for the “New Covenant” (Heb. 8:8) for the Houses of Israel and Judah ONLY, as ‘they’ remain under Mosaic Law until heaven and earth pass away (Matt. 5:18).

Many fail to realize that the Kingdom of Israel will indeed be restored (Acts 1:6-7), when Elijah returns (Matt. 17:10-11) to restore all things, as the “prophet” of Acts 3:19-26. That marks the time that the Lord God will effect the “New Covenant” (Heb. 8:8), when the Temple (Eze. 40+) and Kingdom (Eze. 47-48) are restored. Israel of the Old Testament (and today) did not realize meaning of the types and symbols of everything contained within the Tabernacle of Moses and Temple environment, which includes the anointings (spirit witnesses), sacrifices (blood witnesses) and washings (water witnesses) symbolizing things IN HEAVEN. :0) Try to open yourself to the truth that a “True Tabernacle” exists IN HEAVEN above AND that the “Tabernacle of David” (Acts 15:16-18) is an earthly COPY. God’s Living Word is dispensing these things to Israel and the Levitical Priesthood right here beginning in Hebrews 8 where you were shown the New Covenant applies to the Houses of Israel and Judah:

“Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a High Priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister in the sanctuary and in the TRUE TABERNACLE, which the Lord pitched, not man.” . . . Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; who serve A COPY and SHADOW of the HEAVENLY THINGS, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "See," He says, "That you make all things according to the PATTERN which was shown you on the mountain." Hebrews 8:1-5.

At this point you are to realize that every wall, veil, post, door, piece of furniture, pot and pan inside the Tabernacle of Moses and Temple has a “HEAVENLY” counterpart, even if Israel of the flesh has no clue (even today) what these things symbolize. Christ coming to ‘fulfill the Law’ (Matt. 5:17-19) has everything to do with raising Israel’s consciousness concerning what every precept of Mosaic Law means, as He (the Lord God) followed “My servant” to “His Temple,” as what??? :0) That’s right! “. . . The Messenger of the Covenant.” Malachi 3:1.

"Behold, I am going to send My messenger [John the Baptist = Elijah = Matt. 11:14], and he will clear the way before Me (Jesus Christ is the Lord God of the OT). And the Lord [Jesus is Lord! = Romans 10:9], whom you seek, will suddenly come to His Temple [the earthly copy]; and the “Messenger of the Covenant” [speaking at the Lord’s Supper you quoted above] in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 3:1.

Jesus Christ is sitting with His “Jewish” Disciples observing the “Lord’s Passover” like every practicing Jew keeping Mosaic Law to “Fulfill Prophecy” and those things “seen” by the OT prophets like Hosea (Christ is the Lord speaking about Israel):

"In that day I will also make a covenant for them [Heb. 8:8] With the beasts of the field, The birds of the sky And the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword and war from the land, And will make them lie down in safety. I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and in justice, In lovingkindness and in compassion, And I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness. Then you will know the Lord.” Hosea 2:19-20.

Jesus Christ is the Bridegroom having the “Bride” (John 3:29 = Church #1) offering Israel the “Gospel of the Kingdom” having NOTHING to do with the Gentiles at all in the Four Gospels. MANY of you are deluded into believing the New Covenant has application to the “His BODY” Church (Col. 1:24), because you FAIL to realize the vast importance of Christ’s words right here:

“But He answered and said, "I was sent ONLY to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel." Matthew 15:24.

Repeat Christ’s words out loud again and again and again, until the ‘true context’ of ALL His Four Gospel teachings to the Kingdom “Bride” begin sinking in. Israel was supposed to ‘accept’ Jesus Christ as the Lord God AND obey the “Gospel of the Kingdom” going to Israel ONLY.

“These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do NOT go in the way of the Gentiles, and do NOT enter any city of the Samaritans [half Jews]; but rather go to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Matthew 10:5-7.

You can run over to Acts 2 and the Day of Pentecost to see Peter still going to ISRAEL ONLY (Acts 2:14, 22, 36) the very same way, even if those blinded by Denominationalism want to also take these Kingdom teachings totally out of context and apply them to the Mystery “BODY of Christ” (Church #2) that did NOT even exist for anyone to address them. Paul tells you that his “my gospel” is “according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY” (Rom. 16:25), but men want to carry his “Jesus Christ and Him Crucified” (1Cor. 2:2) Gospel Message back into the Four Gospels in support of their errant “One Gospel” MYTH. Locate the ‘true context’ of Christ’s “New Covenant” teachings for Israel ONLY at His Last Lord’s Passover Supper and the truth of this matter will become self evident. How many times does Paul use the term “Bride” (numphe #3565) in all of his Thirteen Epistles combined? Zero! We are the Mystery “BODY of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) the OT prophets and Israel NEVER EVEN SAW coming down the tracks. :0) Paul specifically hands down the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37-38) that “when you meet together, it is NOT to eat the Lord’s Supper” (1Cor. 11:20), because he is speaking to “Christ’s BODY” (1Cor. 12:27) to whom all of his Epistles to the Gentiles are addressed. This leads us to the question of why Paul speaks about the New Covenant in his Gentile Epistles:

Victorious1 Quoted >> I Corinthians 11:25: After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament [diatheke covenant] in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.

If ‘we’ (Christ’s body) are not to meet together for eating the Lord’s Passover Supper, then why is Paul giving instructions about keeping the Lord’s Passover Supper? :0) This Corinthian Congregation has a mixed audience comprised of members of the Prophetic Kingdom BRIDE, under Mosaic Law (Matt. 5:18, James 2:10) ‘and’ the Mystery BODY of Christ NOT under Mosaic Law (Romans 6:14, Col. 2:16-17). Members of Peter’s Kingdom Bride Church MUST obey the Levitical Ordinances of Mosaic Law and observe the Lord’s Passover Supper (like Christ in Matt. 26 and Luke 22) on the same day every year the way Jews have been doing from the beginning. The Jews have four ceremonial cups (with their Elijah 5th cup addition) contained within the Seder Supper (Lord’s Passover Supper) for signs of deliverance, but Gentiles have never been under Mosaic Law (Rom. 2:14-15) and these things have absolutely NO application to Paul’s Gentile Dominant “BODY of Christ” at all. Paul is addressing the Bride members within the Corinthian Congregation claiming to be “of Apollos” and “of Cephas” (1Cor. 1:12) saved via the “Gospel of the Kingdom” that ARE still under Mosaic Law AND do practice the Lord’s Passover Supper just once ever year.

[Continued]