Conditional Nature of EGW's Prophecies

[NightEternal]

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[RC_NewProtestants]

There are a couple of questions we must ask before we conclude that Jonah preached a message which was not fulfilled.

1. Why does the Bible use the term "overturned or overthrown" for what was to happen to Nineveh? Notice it does not say destroyed. Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. (KJV)
Jonah 3:4 On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned." (NIV)

Could overturned refer to a change in the peoples attitude toward God? Here is what Strong's says about the word overthrown: 2015 haphak (haw-fak'); a primitive root; to turn about or over; by implication, to change, overturn, return, pervert:
KJV-- X become, change, come, be converted, give, make [a bed], overthrow (-turn), perverse, retire, tumble, turn (again, aside, back, to the contrary, every way).

IF you use that fourth one in the KJV usage it works real well (be converted).

2. Do we know all that Jonah said as he preached to the people of Nineveh? Did he preach the possibility of repentance? Did God want him to mention the possibility of repentance? Should we assume that Jonah only said those 8 words to the people of Ninevah?

We do know that Jonah himself knew that God would not necessarily cause harm to the people if they repented. Jonah 4:2 He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. (NIV)

These are just a few of the things you need to consider before you say that Jonah presented an unfulfilled prophecy. This among other things is why I don't think it is a good idea to try and compare the prophesies of Jonah and Ellen White or other such as the most recent prophet hopeful among Adventists Soophaphone Sirivongsack ( Soo).

What about the frequently heard SDA comment that all Prophecy is conditional?
There is no place in the Bible that says that all prophecy is conditional. Is there such a thing as conditional prophecy, yes and there are several examples, but Jeremiah gives us the overriding principle on how conditional prophecies work. Jeremiah 18:7-10 “At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.” (KJV)

The conditions expressed here apply to nations and kingdoms only. This does not apply to every prophecy that God sends. Now we can easily see that Jonah is dealing with a kingdom.

The other area of conditional prophecy we must consider is who determines the conditions if they are not mentioned in the prophecy. If a so called prophet says such and such will happen and then it does not happen. Is it up to the prophet to say that conditions were not met? Are we to just assume that if the prophecy does not occur than that is evidence that the untold conditions were not met?

Surely we can see the circular reasoning if the so called prophet can explain away their unfulfilled predictions. If that was the case then the test in Deut. is worthless. Deuteronomy 18:22” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.” (NIV)

In the story of Jonah it is likely that Jonah lost his office as a prophet hence Jonah’s anger with God. God explains to Jonah at the end of the story .Jonah 4:9-11 But God said to Jonah, "Do you have a right to be angry about the vine?" "I do," he said. "I am angry enough to die." But the LORD said, "You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?" (NIV)

The loss of being called a prophet is a small price to pay for the redemption of kingdom. The story of Jonah paved the way for a far greater understanding of the compassion of God, as Jeremiah said above and as Joel also attested. Joel 2:13 Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in
love, and he relents from sending calamity. (NIV)

For those hung up on unfulfilled prophecies of Jeremiah and Ezekiel, this verse above covers those prophecies too. But even further back God presented Israel with Conditions, Exodus 19:5-6 “Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites." (NIV)

As you read Ezekiel you read many of the possibilities for Israel had they followed God, but they did not. God clearly made it known that Ezekiel's message was to go to a rebellious people. Ezekiel 2:4-5 The people to whom I am sending you are obstinate and stubborn. Say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says.' And whether they listen or fail to listen-- for they are a rebellious house-- they will know that a prophet has been among them. (NIV)

In short the story of Jonah is not an adequate example of failed prophecy.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

There are different areas of new theology. They did not come in overnight. George Knight writings were gathered mostly from non-adventists.

"New theology" refers to only a few areas
1. nature of christ
2. daniel 8:14
3. last generation theology

all the ultra -conservatives stuff



Show a quote from EGW where she reversed her position on the "shut door".[/quote] if she never reversed her postiton you are in trouble. you clearly don't know what the shut door is.

 

[OntheDL]

If she never reversed her postiton you are in trouble. you clearly don't know what the shut door is.

Ok, then enlighten me with her quote where she reversed her position on this. I'm still waiting for a quote from you.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Ok, then enlighten me with her quote where she reversed her position on this. I'm still waiting for a quote from you.

Ok I will I will give you first had statment in secquencial order. I will give you her statment after the fact that the eailer statements contradict. You are treading on dangerous ground you may have to change your mind after this. Are you ready for this trip. it could change your life. But......I will do it when I get up tommorw. it is way to late and I am tired. we can deal with after some sleep. we aren't going anywhere.

 

[OntheDL]

Ok I will I will give you first had statment in secquencial order. I will give you her statment after the fact that the eailer statements contradict. You are treading on dangerous ground you may have to change your mind after this. Are you ready for this trip. it could change your life. But......I will do it when I get up tommorw. it is way to late and I am tired. we can deal with after some sleep. we aren't going anywhere.

Ok, just give me a quote that says in the end EGW abandoned her original stance on the shut door please. Still waiting.

 

[djconklin]

Your answer is Scary. What an excuse. That is a blatant attempt to Alter & Ignore Evedience {sic}.

Since I did NOT alter or ignore any evidence ...

We're still waiting for the proof.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

We're still waiting for the proof.

The post is not about your objection to my objections, but the evidence in support of the claim that EGW's prediction are conditional.

Your rasied and objection and I met it. Now back to the original Thread topic. If you have something to contribute then please do so.

thank-you

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Ok, just give me a quote that says in the end EGW abandoned her original stance on the shut door please. Still waiting.

do you know what her original stance was. That must first be established before we can see if she abandoned or not.

please list what you understand her postion to be.

Thank-you

 

[OntheDL]

Can you provide a quote or no?

Don't answer my question with a question.

Still waiting.......

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Could those who claim that a prophet's predictions were conditinal {sic} please show where in the writing that Jonah placed a condition on his prediction.

God Himself placed conditions on prophecies like Jonah's:

JER 18:7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
​

There is the condition in Jonah's confession. He already knew that God was not going to do anything. That is why he ran. He wanted them to die.
Jonah 4 Jonah's Anger at the Lord 's Compassion 1 But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3 Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live."


sophia7 has posted the Jeremiah. Quote that is the basis for this.

There you have 2 scriptural passages that show condition
1. Shows the condition... if you stop doing evil, I won't punish you.

2. shows that Jonah knew what God was up to.


I think I have adequately answered you questions. Now it is your turn to answer mine.

Where is the condition in Ellen Whites predictions?

Close, but since it was after the prediction and not in the prediction itself we'll have to disallow it.

Your answer is Scary. What an excuse. That is a blatant attempt to Alter & Ignore Evedience. That is totally dishonest of you. IF THAT IS ALL YOU HAVE YOU ARE IN TROUBLE.

You make the claim that it is EGW is just like Jonah and when we show you the evidence for the conditions of Jonah, you invaldate it. That is just amazing and shows what mind set you have. if people cannot see the dishonesty in what you said then there is no hope for them.

This is a Serious Matter. I and otherS are looking for reason to Stay an SDA not Leave and you are giving us reason to leave. Your answers are only showing us how week The SDA postion is and encouraging people to reject what you say.

If you could give me something as clear as that in the writing of EGW that was current with the event. then I might be able to believe.

Second the context is God destroying People. the bible says god does not want to destroy people.

both of ellen's prediction, under question, are about jesus return. Jesus says no one knows the time of his coming except the Father. Ellen said she knew when Jesus was coming back
1. at the end of the shut door period in 1851
2. Before the Death of some of the people @ the 1856 Conference in battle creek.

I have not been shown that either of these were conditional in nature.

If you have evidence please share it. Ellen clearly taught that she knew when jesus was coming.

Bliblical principals @ issue that make things conditional

Jonah
1. Does God want to kill people not. God is slow to anger abounding in love

EGW
1. Do people know when Jesus is coming back or not
"No one know the Day or the hour of the coming of the son of Man ,Except the Father in Heaven. "

there is a clear difference between the 2

Since I did NOT alter or ignore any evidence ...

Jonah's prophecy is very clear and there is NO conditional element in the prophecy.

I did a study on Jonah while in the seminary--the miminum page limit was 15 pages--my bibliography was 15 pages.



It is good that you noticed the words. However, they are not in Jonah--which is one of the prerequistes that we have been given. Now, if it legit to use Jeremiah's words with Jonah then it is also legit to use them with Ellen G. White. But, those who try to defend EGW will not be allowed to do so.

We're still waiting for the proof.

Lets REVIEW

1. I asked for proof of EGW conditions in her predictions.
Instead of giveing me proof, you tried to change the subject, by shifting the burden of proof on to me.
2. I took and met you objection, by dealing with the eveidence in the book of Jonah. You avoided using the evidence in EGW to answer my objection
3. You invalatated Jonah's own explination said it was not allowed. I ask you to present evidece for EGW and you won't allow that either.
4. I asked a question, you changed the subject.

5. NOW you are asking me to give you proof of something. Hum looks like minipulation and avoidence to me. HUM Not much EVEDIENCE FOR ELLEN. LOOKS like a week postion to me

 

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin
We're still waiting for the proof.

Lets REVIEW

1. I asked for proof of EGW conditions in her predictions.
Instead of giveing me proof, you tried to change the subject, by shifting the burden of proof on to me.

Actually, you claimed that I "Alter & Ignore Evedience." That's what I'm looking for the proof for. If you read post #27 You would have noticed what I was responding too. And since you made the claim, you do have the burden of proof.

 

[djconklin]

I'm still looking for the evidence. I didn't "alter" any evidence. And since I noted the biblical texts it cannot be honestly said that I ignored them either.

Do you have any evidence?

I'm still waiting for an apology.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Please bring your evidence foreward to show that EGW prediction on the "shut door" and the "1856" are conditional

Thank-you

 

[djconklin]

BTW, did you know that even the term "shut-door" has changed meaning over time?

When you apologize for your mis-leading post then we can deal with it.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

As far as the "shut door" elvolving and changing that would be consistant with "reinvinting history" why do they keep having to change the term. to confuse the real meaning.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

This is the start of it.
From the offical EGW website. the white estate

Show a quote from EGW where she reversed her position on the "shut door"

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/shutdoor.html

pay carful attention to the 1847 letter to joseph bates about the FEB 1845 vision she had while working with Iseral Damon. She referes to a mother as "very spiritual" This woman had lost faith in the "shut door" movement it was ellen Whites vision that helped this women to be "established" in the faith of the "Shut Door"
the door of mercy being shut on oct 22 1844.

The vision is God through Ellen establishing belief in the the "shut door" what ever it is.

 

[higgs2]

Hi folks. This thread is spiraling downward into insults and personal comments. We are closing it for review. SHould we open it back up, you will need to stay on topic and treat each other with courtesy and respect.

 

[No Swansong]

Dear members of the SDA forum.

Recently this thread Conditional Nature of EGW's Prophecies has come to the attention of the moderating team of the SDA forum. While we feel that this thread is indeed an important thread and should be opened, it has degraded into an argument that has little to do with the actual subject. For this reason I would like to remind the principles involved in the thread of CF Rule 2.1:

2.1 No Flaming

You will not "flame" other members or groups of members. Flaming includes, but is not limited to:
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This is not an accusation towards any particular member. We will be cleaning up the thread and it will remain open so long as all of us can discuss and debate amicably and within the rules of the forum.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Can you provide a quote or no?

Don't answer my question with a question.

Still waiting.......

Yes and it is in the above post