Conditional immortality

[Setyoufree]

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Gen 5:5 "Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died."

God said "you will surely die".

Why did it take so long?

Because Adam was perfectly made straight from the hands of his creator. Also the earth was perfect. There was no disease or pollution.

How could Adam die? Wasn't he immortal?

Go to Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever (i.e., be immortal)." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Apparently when God created Adam & Eve he didn't create them immortal. They had conditional immortality. As long as they remained faithful to God they had immortality through the tree of life.

 

[Shiny Gospel Shoes]

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Gen 5:5 "Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died."

God said "you will surely die".

Why did it take so long?

Because Adam was perfectly made straight from the hands of his creator. Also the earth was perfect. There was no disease or pollution.

How could Adam die? Wasn't he immortal?

Go to Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever (i.e., be immortal)." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Apparently when God created Adam & Eve he didn't create them immortal. They had conditional immortality. As long as they remained faithful to God they had immortality through the tree of life.

The question, "Why did it take so long?"; there are two ways of looking, from man's perspective, or God's perspective, thus from man's it seems long, but unto God:

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8
​

Adam lived in that day [1st 1,000 years] "with" God, and fell to sleep just short [930] of the full day, 1,000 years.

The more important question comes when asking why are there the first and "second" deaths in the first place? And to really answer the question about the state of the dead or why any of it matters, we should consider the only death that matters, the death of Jesus Christ - it is then that the state of the dead and its importance is made known, even moreso than not being deceived by satans lie in the Garden, "not surely die".

 

[BobRyan]

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Gen 5:5 "Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died."

God said "you will surely die".

Why did it take so long?

He and Eve had eaten from the tree of life in the days/weeks/years before they sinned.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Setyoufree]

Anyway, the idea that fallen mankind is immortal, is a heresy.

 

[squint]

He and Eve had eaten from the tree of life in the days/weeks/years before they sinned.

in Christ,

Bob

Wow. You learn something new everyday. I didn't know the SDA had that clunker in their theology garage.

You understand that to think there was a tree that granted eternal life in the Garden of Eden makes one a POLYTHEIST?

Think about it and get back to me.

 

[Steeno7]

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Gen 5:5 "Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died."

God said "you will surely die".

Why did it take so long?

Because Adam was perfectly made straight from the hands of his creator. Also the earth was perfect. There was no disease or pollution.

How could Adam die? Wasn't he immortal?

Go to Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever (i.e., be immortal)." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Apparently when God created Adam & Eve he didn't create them immortal. They had conditional immortality. As long as they remained faithful to God they had immortality through the tree of life.

They died in the day that they ate, they died spiritually. Physical death is the result of spiritual death. As we see a little later when they are barred from the tree of life, so as to not eat from it and live forever.

 

[squint]

The question, "Why did it take so long?"; there are two ways of looking, from man's perspective, or God's perspective, thus from man's it seems long, but unto God:

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8
​

Adam lived in that day [1st 1,000 years] "with" God, and fell to sleep just short [930] of the full day, 1,000 years.

The more important question comes when asking why are there the first and "second" deaths in the first place? And to really answer the question about the state of the dead or why any of it matters, we should consider the only death that matters, the death of Jesus Christ - it is then that the state of the dead and its importance is made known, even moreso than not being deceived by satans lie in the Garden, "not surely die".

Satan usually mixes truth with lies. There is no reason that Satan couldn't have had some truth in that statement. After all Adam was Gods son, so, can GOD DIE?

There are limitations to what can 'really' happen to Gods children. Can they die physical death? Of course. Eternal death? Only if you want to make God a killer of His own children, which is very very unlikely.

Logic and reason are the good friends of honest theologians.

s

 

[squint]

Anyway, the idea that fallen mankind is immortal, is a heresy.

Paul was very specific about the condition of Adam in 1 Cor. 15.

He tells us that Adam was sown in corruption, weakness, dishonor and a natural body.

The fact is God never had any intentions of leaving his son, Adam, in a wet pile of dust for eternity, period.

God has an 'order.' Paul again spells out this order in 1 Cor. 15. First the natural, then the spiritual.

Adam was the first natural man, and became a 'last Adam' when he departed his dust body and returned to God, his Father.

s

 

[Setyoufree]

After all Adam was Gods son, so, can GOD DIE?

Adam was God's unfallen creation, not a creation of Deity. When Adam fell he began dying, physically.

Eternal death? Only if you want to make God a killer of His own children, which is very very unlikely.

Eternal death is equivalent to the 2nd death, which is goodbye to life forever because you have rejected God and therefore any hope of a resurrection.

 

[Setyoufree]

Adam was the first natural man, and became a 'last Adam' when he departed his dust body and returned to God, his Father.

s

That's what I term "spiritual voodoo"

Sin brought mortality. To state we are somehow immortal is equivalent to stating we are sinless.

 

[squint]

That's what I term "spiritual voodoo"

I cited 1 Cor. 15 where Paul tells us explicitly how Adam was made.

Is Paul's presentation spiritual voodoo?

Sin brought mortality. To state we are somehow immortal is equivalent to stating we are sinless.

Adam was Gods son. Did God bear a son that was a deformity?

You get the picture?

All of Israel were also taught to be Gods children.

Most of orthodoxy considers mankind to be Gods children. This is not some new development in theology.

s

 

[Setyoufree]

I cited 1 Cor. 15 where Paul tells us explicitly how Adam was made.

"The last Adam" refers to Christ, not Adam.

Adam was Gods son. Did God bear a son that was a deformity?

Adam wasn't Deity. God's Son, Christ, is Deity..not Adam. Get the picture?

 

[Mama Kidogo]

After all Adam was Gods son, so, can GOD DIE?



s

I'm sure He did, on a Cross in Jerusalem.

 

[The Lorax]

That's what I term "spiritual voodoo"

Sin brought mortality. To state we are somehow immortal is equivalent to stating we are sinless.

If sin brought mortality, what was the purpose of the tree of life?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Wow. You learn something new everyday. I didn't know the SDA had that clunker in their theology garage.

You understand that to think there was a tree that granted eternal life in the Garden of Eden makes one a POLYTHEIST?

Think about it and get back to me.

Yep, it is one of their mainstays. One of their theologians wrote a two volume work (about 1,400 pages long) called "The Conditionalist faith of our Fathers" on the subject. I may be mistaken but I think it is considered heterodox in CF so this thread will likely be lifted out of GT and into the heterodox & unorthodox sub forum.

 

[Setyoufree]

If sin brought mortality, what was the purpose of the tree of life?

God created man immortal, but not unconditionally....It was through the tree of life. Hence conditional immorality. The evidence that mankind sinned was mortality set in.

1 Cor 15:54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Clearly this side of the fall we are mortal.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Why does this thread remind me of this:

Munchkin Coroner - YouTube

 

[squint]

Yep, it is one of their mainstays. One of their theologians wrote a two volume work (about 1,400 pages long) called "The Conditionalist faith of our Fathers" on the subject. I may be mistaken but I think it is considered heterodox in CF so this thread will likely be lifted out of GT and into the heterodox & unorthodox sub forum.

crickets

 

[squint]

I'm sure He did, on a Cross in Jerusalem.

Adam was a son of God.

Jesus was a son of God.

Both died physical deaths.

Are they dead?

One.Both.Neither???

 

[squint]

"The last Adam" refers to Christ, not Adam.

When did Jesus become God? He always was God.

"-the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

Adam wasn't Deity. God's Son, Christ, is Deity..not Adam. Get the picture?

Adam, the son of God. Luke 3:38