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Featured Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, Jul 28, 2017.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    12There the doers of iniquity have fallen;
    They have been thrust down and cannot rise.

    Rise from what?

    It doesn't say they "will not rise" but they are not able to rise. It doesn't say that God is unable to make them rise. Next:


    Not in this (NASB) version:

    28The hope of the righteous is gladness,
    But the expectation of the wicked perishes.

    29 The way of the LORD is a stronghold to the upright,
    But ruin to the workers of iniquity.

    30 The righteous will never be shaken,
    But the wicked will not dwell in the land.

    31 The mouth of the righteous flows with wisdom,
    But the perverted tongue will be cut out.


    Scarcely have they been planted, Scarcely have they been sown, Scarcely has their stock taken root in the earth, But He merely blows on them, and they wither, And the storm carries them away like stubble. (NASB)

    Something that still exists is not even annihilated, let alone endlessly annihilated. Next:

    For those blessed by Him will inherit the land, But those cursed by Him will be cut off. (NASB)

    There's no endless annihilation there either. Next:

    Who isn't silent in the grave? Next:


    Yes, i understand those were all lame failed attempts to support endless annihilation.

    Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
    Statement of Faith -- Please Read
     
  2. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    It says they are not able to rise from the grave! The margin says cast off for the grave! Plus you missed Psalms 115:17; the dead praise not God, neither any that go down into silence. Isaiah 38:18 says: the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee, they that go down into the pit cannot hope for your truth. Psalms 88:10-11 says they are for destruction. Not only that but your stubble is misleading: Malachi 4:1 the wicked will be burned up & leave neither root or branch! Malachi 4:3 say they will be trodden down as ashes under the feet! Obadiah 1:18 agrees.
    Your error is great, even Strong does not agree with you, Thayer and Middle Liddle do not agree with you as I have attached their translations below:
    Now, looking at 2 Thessalonian 1:9 DARBY says, "shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction". Strong agrees with that as well as Middle Liddle, Strayer, and many others:
    Screenshot_2017-10-25-08-32-40.png Screenshot_2017-10-25-08-32-40.png Screenshot_2017-10-25-08-23-21.png
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As i said already: "It doesn't say that God is unable to make them rise." Jesus is the Resurrection & the Life & all in their graves will rise, so those now in their graves have not been endlessly annihilated. The verse does not support the endless annihilation viewpoint. Nor does any Scripture passage.

    Malachi 4 was already addressed above. See my most recent response to Jason. And, as i already told you, i already answered you re 2 Th.1:9, here:

    Have you been Utterly Destroyed ? I

    To the contrary all will get life, justification & righteousness:

    Rom.5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
    19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
  4. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    IMG_20171025_090209.jpg
    Romans 5:1; Romans 5:21; you have to be a believer first and then be saved by God's grace through the faith in Christ. UNLESS YOU ARE WICKED AND WISH TO BE ASHES UNDER THE FEET. Malachi 4:3; Psalms 88:11-12
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Souls are not made of "ashes". So the reference to "ashes" tells us nothing about the fate of souls in the afterlife. The passage speaks of what will be on a day, "the day" (v.1), not for eternity.

    Malachi 3:2-4 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. "He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. "Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.

    Burned up does not mean endlessly annihilated out of existence. People are cremated, i.e. burned up, every day. Guess what? Everyone of them will be resurrected back to life. They were "burned up" but not annihilated out of existence forever.

    For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts. (Mal.1:11)

    "...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

    AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

    1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    One of Jesus' 12 diciples, Thomas, doubted His resurrection & refused to believe unless he see Him & put his hands into the holes in His body where He was pierced. To be saved one must believe in Jesus' resurrection (1 Cor.15:1-4), so Thomas wasn't saved. Then Jesus appeared to him & he believed. How many unbelievers will believe when they are raised from the dead?

    Saul of Tarsus, the unbeliever, torturer & serial killer of Christians, believed when Jesus blinded him & spoke to him, before healing his blindness. Eventually everyone will believe in Jesus, confess Him as Lord, worship Him, & repent of their sins.

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    7 Myths About Universalism
     
  7. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    All mankind are inherently "in Adam" because all mankind are literal, physical descendants of Adam. But all mankind are not inherently "in Christ." Paul did not say "because of Adam" or "because of Christ."
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "10, 11. shall not be—literally, "is not"—is not to be found."

    "Shall not be, to wit, in the land of the living. He shall be dead and gone, as this phrase is commonly taken."

    "It shall not be, i.e. his place, and estate, and glory shall be gone..."

    "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be,.... Not that they shall be annihilated or reduced to nothing, because nonentities have no place nor being any where; when they die they shall lift up their eyes in hell; their bodies will rise again at the last day; they shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ...but they shall be no more in the world, and in the same flourishing and prosperous circumstances they were..."

    Psalm 37:10 Commentaries: Yet a little while and the wicked man will be no more; And you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there.

    It is not true that in a "little while" the wicked would be endlessly annihilated. In much longer than "a little while", in fact thousands of years later for those of that time, they will be raised back to life. Next:


    You, O LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel, Awake to punish all the nations; Do not be gracious to any who are treacherous in iniquity. Selah. (NASB)
    And Thou, Jehovah, God of Hosts, God of Israel, Awake to inspect all the nations. Favour not any treacherous dealers of iniquity. Selah. (YLT)

    David prays that God will not be gracious to certain people. Will God listen to him? Love Omnipotent is able to convert those who persist in wickedness such as He did with Saul of Tarsus when He supernaturally blinded him & spoke to him on the road to Damascus. God their Saviour may also punish certain wicked people for their own good, that they may repent & be saved. Rather than being "gracious" to them or showing them "favour" (Psa.59:5).

    Psalm 59:5 says nothing about anyone being endlessly annihilated. Next:


    Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. (Psa.69:28)

    This says nothing about anyone being endlessly annihilated.

    David prays again against his enemies. Will God answer him? God in the flesh said "love your enemies". Next:



    This is David's ill wish or prayer against his enemies. Will God answer him?

    May burning coals fall upon them; May they be cast into the fire, Into deep pits from which they cannot rise. (Psa.140:10)

    On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head. (Rom.12:20)

    Psalm 140:10 says nothing about anyone being endlessly annihilated. Next:


    They can't deliver themselves. But Love Omnipotent can deliver them. With Him all is possible.

    Isa.47:14 says nothing about anyone being endlessly annihilated. Next:


    Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people. (Acts 3:23)

    21whom heaven must receive until the times for restoring all about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.
    22Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you.
    23And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’

    The Greek word for "cut off" above is exolethreuó (Strongs # 1842). In Exodus 31:14 it occurs with the meaning of death. Death is not endless annihilation.

    Spiros Zhodiates says the "word and its syn. never mean extinction, but a change of one's state involving retribution or punishment" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary", p.605).

    There is no endless annihilation spoken of in Acts 3:23.

    Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

    Repay double, not infinitey:

    Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is Bildad talking, not God. Bildad says enemies will be clothed in shame, not endless annihilation:

    Your enemies will be clothed in shame, and the tents of the wicked will be no more. (Job 8:22)

    Those in shame are not annihilated, but living. Bildad says the tents of the wicked, not the wicked themselves, will be no more.

    "This opinion the friends of Job maintain all along, and by this they urge him to forsake his sins, repent, and return to God."


    "He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail."

    This says the wicked shall be silent in darkness, not they shall get endless annihilation.


    "For the wicked is reserved for the day of calamity; They will be led forth at the day of fury. (NASB)

    This tells us about one day, not endless or final destiny.


    5"Behold, God is mighty but does not despise any; He is mighty in strength of understanding. 6"He does not keep the wicked alive, But gives justice to the afflicted.

    God did not keep Sodom alive. Does that mean they are annihilated forever? No.


    50 more lame ones that don't support endless annihilation?
    That reminds me of these 600 that allegedly "expound on the truth of the Reconciliation of All":

    600+ Scriptures Confirming Universal Salvation
     
  10. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    You have left out and replaced words and forgot the verses that proceed and come after the ones you have quoted from. There are many translations and the best way is to examine them all. I am combining your last three posts to save space and answer them: Acts of the Apostles 3:23; And it shall be, every soul that may not hear that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from out of the people. ; a cutting off, or as Aben Ezra explains it here:, "death by the hand of heaven", that is, immediate destruction from God, and so Miamonides syas, Yesod Hattora. c. 9. sect 4. You quoted Romans 12:20 in response to my Psalms 140:10; Let the burning coals fall upon them, let them be cast into the fire, into deep pits, that they rise not again. However, you forgot to quote Romans 12:19 which says, ...for it hath been written, VENGEANCE IS MINE.May I remind you of the Strong definition of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 and here is it by YLT: who shall suffer justice- destruction age during- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength.; pay, (Greek tino. Only here) the penalty (App-177), even everlasting. App-151.
    Matthew 25:46 and these shall go away into everlasting judgement, but the righteous into life eternal, [the angels will be ordered to take and cast them into everlasting burnings.] John 5:29 says And shall come forth , they that have done good , unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the the resurrection of judgement. Revelation 20:15 and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Psalms 69:25 Let their habitation be desolate and let none dwell in their tents. Psalms 69:28 says Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
    Job 21:30 The wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. 21 Yet shall he be brought to the grave and remain in the tomb.
    Revelation 6:16-17 says hide us...from the wrath of the Lamb for the great day of his wrath has come , and who shall be able to stand? Job 36:6 says He preserveth NOT the life of the wicked; but giveth their right to the afflicted [Hebrew margin] Job 36:18 says Because there is wrath beware lest He take thee away with His stroke:THEN A GREAT RANSOM CANNOT DELIVER THEE.
    Consider then, Isaiah 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubbel [straw] the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame; their shall not be a coal to warm at nor fire to sit before it. Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thourghly cleanse His floor, and gather His wheat into the repository; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
    Psalms 1:5 Therefore the wicked will NOT stand in the day of the judgement, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous. Psalms 1:6 For Jehovah knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked shall perish.Psalms 36:12 There are the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast down, and in no way shall they be able to stand [Hebrew margin] [ABP] [DARBY] KJV]
    Psalms 37:38 but the transgressors shall be destroyed together, the future of the wicked shall be cut off. Psalms 37:40 And Jehovah will help them and deliver them; He will deliver them from the wicked and save them, for they trust in Him.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Obviously dead corpses are silent & don't praise God. That applies to both saints & sinners.

    Are you now arguing that everyone who dies is annihilated forever?



    18"For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness. 19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;

    Those corpses in "death" do not praise God, but "the living" give thanks to Him.

    This context says nothing about endless annihilation.


    This passage has many questions, but no answers:

    10 Will You perform wonders for the dead? Will the departed spirits rise and praise You? Selah. 11 Will Your lovingkindness be declared in the grave, Your faithfulness in Abaddon? 12 Will Your wonders be made known in the darkness? And Your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?


    "Then the house of Jacob will be a fire And the house of Joseph a flame; But the house of Esau will be as stubble. And they will set them on fire and consume them, So that there will be no survivor of the house of Esau," For the LORD has spoken.

    This is speaking of earthly punishment in this life, not final destiny. I suggest you read some commentaries here: Index of /commentaries/obadiah



    Thayer was a universalist.

    So were a number of Early Church Fathers, including Origen who was a Greek scholar & Greek was his native language.

    You & others in this thread have posted dozens of verses allegedly supporting endless annihilation, but i have shown that none of them do. Nor is there a single verse in Scripture to support such a theory.

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Correct. Paul did not say in Christ all - are - alive. He said in Christ all - shall be - made alive.

    To be "in Christ" implies salvation.

    Who is the "all" referring to that shall be made alive "in Christ"? The context of the first half of the parallel in the verse tells us. It is all those who were "in Adam", i.e. all mankind.

    "AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive." (1 Cor.15:22)

    What Paul doesn't say is:

    AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall [a few] be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Fifteen Reasons for Preaching Christian Universalism
     
  13. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You are still ignoring the part of your quote which says "in Christ." And you are misunderstanding or misrepresenting who the all is. All "in Adam" and "all in Christ." You might wish to familiarize yourself with the many occurrences of "in Christ" in the NT. See e.g.,Romans 8:1, Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 1:2, 2 Corinthians 2:14. Especially
    2 Corinthians 5:17
    (17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
    Therefore if any man be not in Christ, he is not a new creature: old things are not passed away' behold all things do not become new.
    No, zero, none of the occurrences state/imply that all mankind will be "in Christ." When Paul wrote those words all mankind were already "in Adam" but all mankind were not already in Christ and there is nothing about Paul's statement which states or implies that all mankind shall be in Christ and thus made alive.
     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Paul says:

    "AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive." (1 Cor.15:22)

    What Paul doesn't say is:

    in Adam ALL die [but only those few who lived and believed] in Christ shall be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Even your own comments don't support endless annihilation.

    Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people. (Acts 3:23)

    21whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.
    22Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you.
    23And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’

    The Greek word for "cut off" above is exolethreuó (Strongs # 1842). In Exodus 31:14 it occurs with the meaning of death. Death is not endless annihilation.

    Spiros Zhodiates says the "word and its syn. never mean extinction, but a change of one's state involving retribution or punishment" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary", p.605).

    There is no endless annihilation spoken of in Acts 3:23.


    Vengeance is vengeance, not endless annihilation. Here is vengeance:

    Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    That says repay double, not infinitey or endlessly.

    Repayment (vengeance) is harmonious with salvation and with universal reconciliation:

    "Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness." (Micah 7:9)

    "And what about judgment? "In the first judgment recorded in Scripture, mercy goes hand in hand. If Adam is to die, mercy follows; the serpent's head is to be bruised (Gen 3:15). So, too, even the vengeance of eternal fire on Sodom ends in her restoration (Jude 7, Ezek 16:53-55). We thus understand the striking juxtaposition of mercy and judgment in God's revelation of himself to Moses (Exod 34:6-7)...[f]ew more beautiful illustrations of the view I am urging can be found than that afforded by the story of Achan, stoned by a terrible judgment..in the Valley of Achor (Josh 7:24-25); for if we turn to Hosea 2:15 we shall find this promise, 'I will give her the Valley of Achor for a door of hope' -- words pregnant with suggestion."

    "The Prophets are full of similar teaching. Note Isaiah connecting the words of comfort and pardon to Israel with her having received 'double for all her sins' (Isa 40:1-2). So it is said, 'Zion shall be redeemed with judgment' (Isa 1:27)...this connection of judgment and salvation runs through the Bible....So in Ezekiel 24:13-14, it is said of Israel, 'You shall not be purged of your filthiness any more, till I have satisfied my fury upon you.'"

    Christ Triumphant, Part Three: Universalism Asserted on the Authority of Scripture




    And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (CLV)
    And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life. (Ro)
    "And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life." (ED)
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." (YLT)

    The "eternal" (eonian) fire that burned Sodom went out long ago. It was not eternal:

    Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

    "...Likewise, the Presbyterian Bible scholar, M. R. Vincent, in his extensive note on aiõn/aiõnios states: “Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.” "

    Philo was contemporary with Christ & we have this translation of his words which use the same words Christ used at Mt.25:46:

    "It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment [kolasis aiónios] from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct." Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

    If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious.

    "In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called
    chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father,
    so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively
    and individually” (Strom. 7.16)."

    https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/09/15/from-here-to-eternity-how-long-is-forever/

    "...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
    Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology

    Earlier in the book of Matthew the same author wrote:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.


    Judgement is judgement, not endless annihilation. Judgement is a good thing:

    "My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)


    That says cast into the LOF, not cast into endless annihilation.

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).



    What makes you - imagine - any endless annihilation there?

    What makes you - imagine - any endless annihilation there? Those who are blotted out of life, or killed, God makes alive again:

    "See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand. (Deut.33:29)


    A day of wrath is a day of wrath, not endless annihilation:

    "For the wicked is reserved for the day of calamity; They will be led forth at the day of fury." (NASB)

    One can suffer the Lord's wrath & be saved:

    "Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness." (Micah 7:9)


    all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out (Jn.5:28-29)

    New American Standard Bible
    "While he is carried to the grave, Men will keep watch over his tomb. (Job 21:31)

    "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).

    Death is abolished (v.26). God becomes All "in" all (1 Cor.15:28). Even in all who were in Adam (v.22).

    "Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."


    "Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness." (Micah 7:9)


    He preserved not the life of wicked Pharoah, but set His afflicted people (Israel) free. Yet Pharoah is not annihilated forever, but will be raised (Jn.5:28-29) & saved (1 Cor.15:22-28).

    "Ab. Ezra interprets it, The years of the wicked shall be shortened." e.g. Pharoah, Sodom, the world in Noah's day, etc

    "Verse 6. - He preserveth not the life of the wicked. There is no special providence over the life of the wicked, as Job had supposed, or pretended to suppose (Job 21:7; comp. Job 12:6). On the contrary, God "overturneth" wicked men "in the night, so that they are destroyed; he striketh them as wicked men in the open sight of others" (Job 34:25, 26)."


    New American Standard Bible
    "Beware that wrath does not entice you to scoffing; And do not let the greatness of the ransom turn you aside.

    New International Version
    Be careful that no one entices you by riches; do not let a large bribe turn you aside.


    They are - already - like - stubble & have been - already - burned, yet live:

    New American Standard Bible
    "Behold, they have become like stubble, Fire burns them; They cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame; There will be no coal to warm by Nor a fire to sit before!

    English Standard Version
    Behold, they are like stubble; the fire consumes them; they cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame. No coal for warming oneself is this, no fire to sit before!

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Behold they are as stubble, fire hath burnt them, they shall not deliver them- selves from the power of the dames: there are no coals wherewith they may be warmed, nor fire, that they may sit thereat.

    Young's Literal Translation
    Lo, they have been as stubble! Fire hath burned them, They deliver not themselves from the power of the flame, There is not a coal to warm them, a light to sit before it.

    "...they shall be no more able to stand before the fire of divine wrath, or before the judgments of God, by the hands of the Medes and Persians, than stubble can stand before a consuming fire".



    Wheat is useful to the farmer for food. Chaff is useless, unless it is used for fuel. That occurs by burning it, as in Mt.3:12. Of course burned chaff is not annihilated but changed into something else. This verse does not address the final destiny of people's souls. It doesn't even mention the word "soul", let alone any soul is ever annihilated & God Himself is powerless to resurrect that soul. Neither does it state the wheat & chaff represent different people rather than 2 parts of one person. In fact the previous verse said they would be baptized in the "Holy Spirit and fire" (v.11). Not one or the other. That is salvation. And it was spoken to the Pharisees & Sadduccees whom John called a "generation of vipers" (v.7).

    Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

    All sinners are wicked until they are saved. When all sinners are saved, then there will be no more wicked. All will be "in the assembly of the righteous".

    The - way - of the wicked shall perish, i.e. his sinful ways, his wickedness. Then he will be saved.

    Psalm 72

    11Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

    12For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.

    13He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.

    14He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.




    New International Version
    See how the evildoers lie fallen-- thrown down, not able to rise!

    New American Standard Bible
    There the doers of iniquity have fallen; They have been thrust down and cannot rise.

    King James Bible
    There are the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast down, and shall not be able to rise.

    Rise from what?

    It doesn't say they "will not rise" but they are not able to rise. It doesn't say that that God is unable to make them rise.

    Death is abolished (v.26). God becomes All "in" all (1 Cor.15:28). Even in all who were in Adam (v.22).

    "Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

    Cut off, but not forever. Cut off when the dead saints are raised & they are left dead. Until their resurrection. Cut off when cast into the lake of fire, the second death, but not forever. Only till death is abolished & God becomes all in all (1 Cor.15:22-28, etc).

    Or the verse merely refers to their "posterity" (compare the LXX & the Vulgate):

    But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off. (Psa.37:38, NASB)

    posterity: the descendants of a person.
    "God offered Abraham a posterity like the stars of heaven"

    “Posterity” could also be translated as “end” or even “future.” Even as “future,” their offspring could be intended (cf. Prov 24:20)".

    Strongs Hebrew 8045, shamad, "destroyed"...e.g. as in death in this mortal life, as in Genesis 34:30:

    Then Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, "You have brought trouble on me by making me obnoxious to the Canaanites and Perizzites, the people living in this land. We are few in number, and if they join forces against me and attack me, I and my household will be destroyed.[8045]" (Gen.34:30)

    Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God.........................Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"
    Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return.....How can one return from "destruction?"
    Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts..........................."All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"
    Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him......................."All" nations!
    Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God..........................Are you catching on?
    Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God.........................That sounds wondrous.
    Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things......................I wish we would believe that.
    Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him.............For what purpose?
    Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him...............Praise His name!
    Ps 145:9 He is good to all..................................Including your worst enemies.
    Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works.................Let's start believing that.
    Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall.............................Who hasn't fallen in sin?
    Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him........................For "eternal torment?"
    Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him..........................If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?

    http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalist.html
    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
  16. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Strongs G1842 eξολοθρευω = Extirpate; Destroy
    Nahum 1:3 The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will NOT at all acquit the wicked... 2 Thessalonians 1:8 ..taking vengeance on them that know not God and obey not the gospel of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Jude 1:7 Sodom and Gomorrha ...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. " eternal means unending, perpetural, would you like the definition again?
    Yes the answer is obvious because geneology has an end and αιωνιον Strong's G166 means Perpetual; κολασις = Strong's G2851 from G2849 penal infliction; as in 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9; who shall pαy a penalty of destruction everlasting αιωνιον!
    Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living and not be written with the righteous. Revelation 20:15 And whoever was not written in the book of Life were cast into the lake of fire. Psalms 1:5-6 Therefore the ungodly will not stand in the judgement not sinners in the assembly of the righteous; For the Lord knows the way of the righteous; but the way of the ungodly shall perish, Job 21:30-32 The wicked is reserved to the day of destruction, they shall be brought forth for the day of wrath. 2 Peter 2:6; 2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to reserve the unjust to the day of judgement to be pruned; Psalms 35:5-6; 2 Peter 3:7; day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men Matthew 25:41; 1 Timothy 6:9 ολεθρος destruction;
    I don't know where you get your information, but it is certainly
    not Strong. Acts of the Apostles 3:23: So, let us look at some others you don't want to quote:
     

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    Last edited: Oct 27, 2017
  17. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    "...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
    How does Origen define eternal? See below Origen quoting Paul [14 times]. Please note, unlike your copy/paste from tent-r-us, I have correctly cited the specific writing for each quote. One again I cannot find anywhere Origen said “life after aionios life.” Can you show me where this "quote" can be found?
    • Origen De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. I.
    [1]28. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence;(cf. 2 Cor 4:18) while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages.
    Origen Against Celsus. Book VI.Chap XIX
    Our Paul, moreover, educated by these words, and longing after things “supra-mundane” and “super-celestial,” and doing his utmost for their sake to attain them, says in the second Epistle to the Corinthians: “For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which [2]are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are unseen are eternal.” (cf. 2Co_4:17, 2Co_4:18)
    Chap. XX.
    Now, to those who are capable of understanding him, the apostle manifestly presents to view “things which are the objects of perception,” calling them “things seen;” while he terms “unseen,” things which are the object of the understanding, and cognisable by it alone. He knows, also, that things [3]“seen” and visible are “temporal,” but that things cognisable by the mind, and “not seen,” are “eternal;” (cf. 2 Cor 4:18) and desiring to remain in the contemplation of these, and being assisted by his earnest longing for them, he deemed all affliction as “light” and as “nothing,”
    • Origen De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. 1
    [4]23. For perhaps as those who, departing this world in virtue of that death which is common to all, are arranged, in conformity with their actions and deserts - according as they shall be deemed worthy - some in the place which is called “hell,” others in the bosom of Abraham, and in different localities or mansions; so also from those places, as if dying there, if the expression can be used,134 do they come down from the “upper world” to this “hell.” For that “hell” to which the souls of the dead are conducted from this world , is, I believe, on account of this distinction, called the “lower hell” by Scripture, as is said in the book of Psalms: “Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell” (Cf. Psa_30:3 and Deu_32:22)
    • Origen De Principiis. Book II. Chap. I.
    6. Certainly, what some say of this world, that it is corruptible because it was made, and yet is not corrupted, because the will of God, who made it and holds it together lest corruption should rule over it, is stronger and more powerful than corruption, may more correctly be supposed of that world which we have called above a “non-wandering” sphere, since by the will of God it is not at all subject to corruption, for the reason that it has not admired any causes of corruption, seeing it is the world of the saints and of the thoroughly purified, and not of the wicked, like that world of ours. We must see, [5]moreover, lest perhaps it is with reference to this that the apostle says, “While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are unseen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2 Cor 4:18-5:1)
    • Origen De Principiis. Book III.Chap. V
    4. It seems worth while, then, to inquire what is meant by this new term; and I am, indeed, of [6]opinion250 that, as the end and consummation of the saints will be in those (ages) which are not seen, and are eternal, we must conclude (as frequently pointed out in the preceding pages), from a contemplation of that very end, that rational creatures had also a similar beginning. And if they had a beginning such as the end for which they hope, they existed undoubtedly from the very beginning in those (ages) which are not seen, and are eternal.
    • Origen De Principiis. Book III. Chap. VI
    [7]4. Respecting the body also, the apostle has said, “ We have a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens,” (2Co_5:1) i.e., in the mansions of the blessed. And from this statement we may form a conjecture, how pure, how refined, and how glorious are the qualities of that body, if we compare it with those which, although they are celestial bodies, and of most brilliant splendour, were nevertheless made with hands, and are visible to our sight. But of that body it is said, that it is a house not made with hands, but eternal in the heavens. Since, then, those things “which are seen are temporal, but those things which are not seen are eternal,” (2Co_4:18) all those bodies which we see either on earth or in heaven, and which are capable of being seen, and have been made with hands, but are not eternal, are far excelled in glory by that which is not visible, nor made with hands, but is eternal.(cf. 2 Cor 5:1);
    [8]6. And in this condition, also, we are to believe, that by the will of the Creator, it will abide for ever without any change, as is confirmed by the declaration of the apostle, when he says, “ We have a house, not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”(cf. 2 Cor 5:1)
    • Origen De Principiis. Book I Chap VI
    [9]4. But since Paul says that certain things are visible and temporal, and others besides these invisible and eternal, (cf. 2 Cor 4:18) we proceed to inquire how those things which are seen are temporal - whether because there will be nothing at all after them in all those periods of the coming world, in which that dispersion and separation from the one beginning is undergoing a process of restoration to one and the same end and likeness; or because, while the form of those things which are seen passes away, their essential nature is subject to no corruption.
    • Origen De Principiis. Book II.Chap III
    6. We must see, moreover, lest perhaps it is with reference to this that the apostle says, “While we [10]look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are unseen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians 4:18-5:1) And when he says elsewhere, “Because I shall see the heavens, the works of Thy fingers,” (Psa_8:3) and when God said, regarding all things visible, by the mouth of His prophet, “My hand has formed all these things,” (Isa_66:2) He declares that that eternal house in the heavens which He promises to His saints was not made with hands,(cf. 2 Cor 5:1) pointing out, doubtless, the difference of creation in things which are seen and in those which are not seen.
    • Origen Against Celsus. Book III. Chap. XLVII.
    But it is probable that what is written by Paul in the first Epistle to the Corinthians, (cf. 1Co_1:18, etc.) as being addressed to Greeks who prided themselves greatly on their Grecian wisdom, has moved some to believe that it was not the object of the Gospel to win wise men. Now, let him who is of this opinion understand that the Gospel, as censuring wicked men, says of them that they are wise [11]not in things which relate to the understanding, and which are unseen and eternal; (cf. 2 Cor 4:18) but that in busying themselves about things of sense alone, and regarding these as all-important, they are wise men of the world: for as there are in existence a multitude of opinions, some of them espousing the cause of matter and bodies, and asserting that everything is corporeal which has a substantial existence, and that besides these nothing else exists, whether it be called invisible or incorporeal, it says also that these constitute the wisdom of the world, which perishes and fades away, and belongs only to this age, while those opinions which raise the soul from things here to the blessedness which is with God, and to His kingdom, and which teach men to despise all sensible and visible things as existing only for a season, and to hasten on to things invisible, and to have regard to those things which are not seen, - these, it says, constitute the wisdom of God.
    • Origen Against Celsus. Book VI Chap. XIX
    Our Paul, moreover, educated by these words, and longing after things “supra-mundane” and “super-celestial,” and doing his utmost for their sake to attain them, says in the second Epistle to the [12]Corinthians: “ For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are unseen are eternal.”(cf. 2Co_4:17, 2Co_4:18)
    Chap. XX.
    Now, to those who are capable of understanding him, the apostle manifestly presents to view “things which are the objects of perception,” calling them “things seen;” while he terms “unseen,” things which are the object of the understanding, and cognisable by it alone. He knows, also,
    [13] that things “seen” and visible are “temporal,” but that things cognisable by the mind, and “not seen,” are “eternal;”(cf. 2 Cor 4:18). and desiring to remain in the contemplation of these, and being assisted by his earnest longing for them, he deemed all affliction as “light” and as “nothing,” and during the season of afflictions and troubles was not at all bowed down by them, but by his contemplation of (divine) things deemed every calamity a light thing, seeing we also have “a great High Priest,” who by the greatness of His power and understanding “has passed through the heavens, even Jesus the Son of God,” who has promised to all that have truly learned divine things, and have lived lives in harmony with them, to go before them to the things that are supra-mundane; for His words are: “That where I go, ye may be also.”
    • Origen Against Celsus. Book VII Chap. XXXII.
    Then, again, as there is “a tabernacle” and “an earthly house” which is in some sort necessary for this [14]tabernacle, Scripture teaches us that “the earthly house of this tabernacle shall be dissolved,” but that the tabernacle shall “be clothed upon with a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2Co_5:1)
    • Origen De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. I
    36. And not only so, but because the nature of Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit, whose intellectual light alone all created things have a share, is incorruptible and eternal, it is altogether consistent and necessary that every substance which partakes of that eternal nature should last for ever, and be incorruptible and eternal, so that the eternity of divine goodness may be understood also in this respect, that they who obtain its benefits are also eternal.
    • Origen [a.d. 185-230-254.] De Principiis. Preface of Rufinus.
    5. After these points, also, the apostolic teaching is that the soul, having a substance and life of its own, shall, after its departure from the world, be rewarded according to its deserts, being destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its actions shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishments, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this: and also, that there is to be a time of resurrection from the dead, when this body, which now “is sown in corruption, shall rise in incorruption,” and that which “is sown in dishonour will rise in glory.” (1Co_15:42-43)
    6. And when He says to those on His right hand, “Come, ye blessed of My Father,” etc.; “for I was an hungered, and ye gave Me to eat; I was athirst, and ye gave Me to drink,” (Mat_25:34) it is exceedingly manifest that He gives the promises to these as being deserving of praise. But, on the contrary, to the others, as being censurable in comparison with them, He says, “Depart, ye cursed, into everlasting fire! ” (Mat_25:41)
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2017
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sodom ceased burning long ago. It is not suffering eternal fire.

    The proper translation is important. Compare the "Interlinear" for Jude 7 via this site:

    Jude 1 Interlinear Bible

    The Interlinear there says it is not "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", as your version says, but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aionion".

    Similarly, a literal version reads:

    7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen,
    experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLNT)

    "7 The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)" (Concordant Commentary of the New Testament, p.376)
    Concordant Commentary on the New Testament

    "We likewise subscribe to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, who "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). This occurred many centuries ago. How poor a passage to apply to that which is thousands of years hence!"

    "The word "set forth" is, literally, "lying before." The term "example" or specimen, is from the word show. These are readily comprehended if we apply them to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah today. Their destruction was so complete that their exact location is in dispute. Now the preponderance of opinion places them under the shallow end of the Dead Sea. No one can visit this terrible desolation without fully appreciating the force of these words."

    "But we are asked to forget this solemn and forceful scene for an "example" which no one can see, and which is not at all "set forth" or "lying before" us. We are asked to forget the fire (Gen.19:24) which destroyed these cities so that the smoke of the plain went up like the smoke of a furnace. The justice or "vengeance" of this fire is all too evident to this very day. It is a powerful reminder of God's judgment which should deter those who are tempted to follow a similar path. This fire is called "eternal." Just now the plain is covered by water, not fire. It was an eonian fire, as is witnessed by its effect for the eon."

    "Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

    "2 Peter 2:6 gives a parallel passage, where we read that God condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them for an example. This is perfectly plain, unless we try to distinguish between the cities and the people, and make conscious cinders suffer from flames beneath the waters of the Dead Sea."

    "If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example, but as no one has ever seen them, and no one can see them, they are no example at all. The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God's eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon. When Jerusalem is restored, they will be restored."

    A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Seven

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  19. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This verse does not say that the suffering was eternal or that the punishment was eternal. Only the fire was eternal
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If that were true, then one could argue that Mt.25:41 & 18:8 do not say anyone's sufferings will be eternal. They only say the fire is eternal.

    Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
    http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
     
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