• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟93,346.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
John Calvin is the one who says God has condemned people already. You said your not a Calvinist
Calvinism is not the only theology that sees some sinners as condemned before conception. The theology of our Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) contends that all persons created in HIS image were created before the creation of the physical universe* with a free will and an equal ability and rtunity to put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour to become HIS elect chosen ones
OR
with an equal ability and opportunity to put their faith against HIM as being a liar and therefore a false god, ignoring HS warning this would be an unforgivable sin
and that if HE ever proved that HE is their creator god, this unforgivable sin would put them in hell forever.

* which they saw as per Job 38:7 with Rom 1:18-20.

People only become sinful by choosing by their free will to rebuke YHWH as a liar or by rebelling against HIS commands if they accepted HIM as their GOD.
No one inherits another's sin.
No one dies for another's sin.
Only sinners (either elect sinners or non-elect sinners) are born as human, ie are sown into this world by the Son of Man or the devil, Matt 13:36-39.

OUR decisions about where to put our faith separated us into the elect who put their faith in HIM, the damned already who repudiated HM by faith and the sinful elect who rebelled against HIS call to come out from among their friends who were now condemned so the judgement could proceed but they would not and the judgement was forced into postponement:
Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to the explanation of this parable, ie, no more metaphor, in verses 36-39]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that saves a sinner from the judgment is a mature holiness!

Thus the sins of the good seed, aka the sheep gone astray into sin, separated them from the holy elect and are the cause of the continued suffering of mankind on this earth under Satan.

PCE also contends that rather than GOD having NO reason to elect some and pass over others as some Calvinists clam, HE chose those who put their faith in HIM to be elected to salvation no matter how they might sin in the future and to be HIS Bride after this reality was cleansed from all evil. HE also passed over for salvation all those who repudiated HIM as a false god driven by an evil megalomania as for ever unfit to ever be a proper Bride for HIM, consigning them to hell on the spot.

AS you can see this is hardly Calvinism at all, until we get to the salvation of sinners which is pretty straight forward orthodoxy.
 

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Calvinism is not the only theology that sees some sinners as condemned before conception. The theology of our Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) contends that all persons created in HIS image were created before the creation of the physical universe* with a free will and an equal ability and rtunity to put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour to become HIS elect chosen ones
OR
with an equal ability and opportunity to put their faith against HIM as being a liar and therefore a false god, ignoring HS warning this would be an unforgivable sin
and that if HE ever proved that HE is their creator god, this unforgivable sin would put them in hell forever.

I'd avoid all Calvins.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: ByTheSpirit
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bling
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Calvinism is not the only theology that sees some sinners as condemned before conception. The theology of our Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) contends that all persons created in HIS image were created before the creation of the physical universe* with a free will and an equal ability and rtunity to put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour to become HIS elect chosen ones
OR
with an equal ability and opportunity to put their faith against HIM as being a liar and therefore a false god, ignoring HS warning this would be an unforgivable sin
and that if HE ever proved that HE is their creator god, this unforgivable sin would put them in hell forever.

* which they saw as per Job 38:7 with Rom 1:18-20.

People only become sinful by choosing by their free will to rebuke YHWH as a liar or by rebelling against HIS commands if they accepted HIM as their GOD.
No one inherits another's sin.
No one dies for another's sin.
Only sinners (either elect sinners or non-elect sinners) are born as human, ie are sown into this world by the Son of Man or the devil, Matt 13:36-39.

OUR decisions about where to put our faith separated us into the elect who put their faith in HIM, the damned already who repudiated HM by faith and the sinful elect who rebelled against HIS call to come out from among their friends who were now condemned so the judgement could proceed but they would not and the judgement was forced into postponement:
Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to the explanation of this parable, ie, no more metaphor, in verses 36-39]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that saves a sinner from the judgment is a mature holiness!

Thus the sins of the good seed, aka the sheep gone astray into sin, separated them from the holy elect and are the cause of the continued suffering of mankind on this earth under Satan.

PCE also contends that rather than GOD having NO reason to elect some and pass over others as some Calvinists clam, HE chose those who put their faith in HIM to be elected to salvation no matter how they might sin in the future and to be HIS Bride after this reality was cleansed from all evil. HE also passed over for salvation all those who repudiated HIM as a false god driven by an evil megalomania as for ever unfit to ever be a proper Bride for HIM, consigning them to hell on the spot.

AS you can see this is hardly Calvinism at all, until we get to the salvation of sinners which is pretty straight forward orthodoxy.
It is not that John Calvin said it. It is what the Apostle John said:
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" (John 3:18).

So condemnation does not result from a person choosing to sin. It is the state of a person who does not believe in Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0

martymonster

Veteran
Dec 15, 2006
3,435
938
✟202,995.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Calvinism is not the only theology that sees some sinners as condemned before conception. The theology of our Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) contends that all persons created in HIS image were created before the creation of the physical universe* with a free will and an equal ability and rtunity to put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour to become HIS elect chosen ones
OR
with an equal ability and opportunity to put their faith against HIM as being a liar and therefore a false god, ignoring HS warning this would be an unforgivable sin
and that if HE ever proved that HE is their creator god, this unforgivable sin would put them in hell forever.

* which they saw as per Job 38:7 with Rom 1:18-20.

People only become sinful by choosing by their free will to rebuke YHWH as a liar or by rebelling against HIS commands if they accepted HIM as their GOD.
No one inherits another's sin.
No one dies for another's sin.
Only sinners (either elect sinners or non-elect sinners) are born as human, ie are sown into this world by the Son of Man or the devil, Matt 13:36-39.

OUR decisions about where to put our faith separated us into the elect who put their faith in HIM, the damned already who repudiated HM by faith and the sinful elect who rebelled against HIS call to come out from among their friends who were now condemned so the judgement could proceed but they would not and the judgement was forced into postponement:
Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to the explanation of this parable, ie, no more metaphor, in verses 36-39]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that saves a sinner from the judgment is a mature holiness!

Thus the sins of the good seed, aka the sheep gone astray into sin, separated them from the holy elect and are the cause of the continued suffering of mankind on this earth under Satan.

PCE also contends that rather than GOD having NO reason to elect some and pass over others as some Calvinists clam, HE chose those who put their faith in HIM to be elected to salvation no matter how they might sin in the future and to be HIS Bride after this reality was cleansed from all evil. HE also passed over for salvation all those who repudiated HIM as a false god driven by an evil megalomania as for ever unfit to ever be a proper Bride for HIM, consigning them to hell on the spot.

AS you can see this is hardly Calvinism at all, until we get to the salvation of sinners which is pretty straight forward orthodoxy.


Honestly, you are free to just believe so much scripture, if you just ditch the false doctrine of eternal punishment.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Honestly, you are free to just believe so much scripture, if you just ditch the false doctrine of eternal punishment.
Neither does God's justice.
Would you want to share heaven with President Putin? What would you think of God's justice if people like Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, and others who committed acts of genocide ended up in heaven alongside faithful Christian believers?
 
Upvote 0

martymonster

Veteran
Dec 15, 2006
3,435
938
✟202,995.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Neither does God's justice.
Would you want to share heaven with President Putin? What would you think of God's justice if people like Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, and others who committed acts of genocide ended up in heaven alongside faithful Christian believers?


Do you think you less deserving of eternal punishment, than these people that you mentioned? Why did you single them out?
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Do you think you less deserving of eternal punishment, than these people that you mentioned? Why did you single them out?
We all deserve to be subject to the eternal wrath of God. That is why John meant by those who don't believe in Christ are condemned already. God is totally holy, and cannot abide sin of any form. This means that there will be nothing or no one unholy in heaven. The Scripture says that without holiness no one will see the Lord.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

ByTheSpirit

Come Lord Jesus
May 17, 2011
11,460
4,690
Manhattan, KS
✟198,594.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We all deserve to be subject to the eternal wrath of God. That is why John meant by those who don't believe in Christ are condemned already. God is totally holy, and cannot abide sin of any form. This means that there will be nothing or no one unholy in heaven. The Scripture says that without holiness no one will see the Lord.

So does that by extension mean unless a person obeys Christ into holiness they will also not enter Gods Kingdom?

What I mean is someone prays the sinners prayer but never changes their lifestyle, is such a person still going to heaven? Or is Heaven only for those who repent and obey the leading if the Spirit
 
Upvote 0

martymonster

Veteran
Dec 15, 2006
3,435
938
✟202,995.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
We all deserve to be subject to the eternal wrath of God. That is why John meant by those who don't believe in Christ are condemned already. God is totally holy, and cannot abide sin of any form. This means that there will be nothing or no one unholy in heaven. The Scripture says that without holiness no one will see the Lord.


Show me the verse that says we are all deserving of being tortured without end?
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
So does that by extension mean unless a person obeys Christ into holiness they will also not enter Gods Kingdom?

What I mean is someone prays the sinners prayer but never changes their lifestyle, is such a person still going to heaven? Or is Heaven only for those who repent and obey the leading if the Spirit
The sinner's prayer has sent many people to hell for the reason you stated. True conversion to Christ is a genuine transformation of heart and spirit which leads to forsaking the works of the flesh and walking in the light with Christ, producing the fruit of the Spirit. Repentance is all about what we stop doing the things that offends the Lord and grieves the Spirit. True conversion, an act of the Holy Spirit in us, creating a new heart, an enlivened spirit, and involves all our sin past and future wiped out as if it never existed, and that our corrupted righteousness is totally covered by the pure righteousness of Christ in the form of the "wedding garment" that Jesus spoke about in the Scriptures. It is more than putting on the "badge" of Christian profession, joining a church, talking the talk, adopting a moral lifestyle and doing religious acts to show how spiritual one is.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Show me the verse that says we are all deserving of being tortured without end?
Eternal Wrath: This is the final wrath of God unleashed upon those who die without grace when they are sent to an everlasting hell. We see this in Revelation 20:11-15 and in other places such as Revelation 14:11, Matthew 25:41-46, Mark 9:42-48, and Luke 16:19-31.
 
Upvote 0

martymonster

Veteran
Dec 15, 2006
3,435
938
✟202,995.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Eternal Wrath: This is the final wrath of God unleashed upon those who die without grace when they are sent to an everlasting hell. We see this in Revelation 20:11-15 and in other places such as Revelation 14:11, Matthew 25:41-46, Mark 9:42-48, and Luke 16:19-31.


So, no actual verse, eh.
 
Upvote 0

RickReads

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
3,433
1,068
60
richmond
✟72,331.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
So, no actual verse, eh.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: martymonster
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
So, no actual verse, eh.
Revelation 14:11: and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
So, no actual verse, eh.

Matt 25: 41-43: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

I think these verses make it quite clear.
 
Upvote 0