Condemnation. Why?

[Zaac]

Well its because many posts show complete and utter hatred for gays. Its not the media its from hearing what other Christians talk about its from reading these boards.

If you're going to say that based upon the posts on this board, then righteously judging, you would have to conclude that gays hate Christians too.

You have probably see very little hate on anybody's part in this forum. What you have seen is people, much like you, who assume that Christians hate gays just because they tell them same-sex sexuals acts are a sin.

For just about anything on here that you could use as a justification of Christians hating gays, I could go to the same thread, show you the same kind of comment toward a Christian, and many would not brand it as hate.

I have seen Christians be thrown out of church because they were brave enough to admit they were gay.

What does that have to do with this forum? Yeah it's wrong if they are not disciplining heterosexual and homosexual fornicators equally. There is a Church discipline process that should be followed that many churches do not.

It just doesnt seem right to me. Its not only chased the gay person away from church its also chased away their families because they no longer want to go somewhere that would ban their child.

By the Church discipline process, if the person does not want to confess their sin and repent and be restored to the body, the church has the Biblical authority to remove the person from the fellowship.

But this needs to be consistent across the board.

 

[Zaac]

Now the differences. You admit that the things you were and are doing are sins, but those who don't believe that homosexuality is a sin aren't admitting that their actions are sinful.

So the question would be, if someone won't admit that something is a sin can they truely be saved? I have posted this as a question before on this site, and been told I am comdemning by asking the question and asking for scriptures to support any answers.

Which is exactly why I said that such a person needs to truly examine whether or not he has a relationship with Jesus Christ. If you don't think what you're doing is sin, then when did repentance take place and of what did it take place for?

I hope this helps answer why some people believe the way they do. I'm not speaking for everyone, but for myself and why I am concerned that many are being deceived and will be turned away from the doors of heaven when they leave this world. If I didn't love them, then I can assure you I wouldn't be concerned about where they speand eternity. It isn't some I am a better Christian than anyone, because NONE, let me repeat that NONE of us are worthy of the eternal life we receive from our Lord and Saviour.

I would consider any debates about this and other subjects a waste of my time if I didn't care deeply about souls. Yet, it is amazing how that concern and caring is considered hateful. I guess it just makes the scriptures which say good will be considered bad and bad good have true meaning to me. I never thought I would see the day that not wanting someone to go to hell would be considered a terrible thing. Yet, here I am considered a hateful bigot for caring.

This is what happens when political correctness rules the day. It's time for God's Church to stand up.

 

[dayhiker]

dayhiker, I'd much rather folks be irritated by the truth that is God's Word than to be left to wallow in their sin. I am to live in obedience to Christ, not to what men want me to do.

If you're committing fornicative homosexual acts, you are living in sin. And if you don't believe that, you haven't read your Bible.



Biblically that would be untrue. If we didn't live in sin, there would never be another sin committed by us. Christians confess and epent of their sin.

Well, Zaac, I've read my Bible for over 50 years.
I've not seen once were the Bible says a fornicator committs homesexual acts. Nor have I read where the Bible says "If we didn't live in sin, there would never be another sin committed by us."

I have read the Book of Ephesis were the Bible says over and over again that the the Christian Ephesians are "in Christ." So I must say I have some problems seeing how you get some of your Biblical statements you talk about so much.

dayhiker

 

[Zaac]

Well, Zaac, I've read my Bible for over 50 years.
I've not seen once were the Bible says a fornicator committs homesexual acts. Nor have I read where the Bible says "If we didn't live in sin, there would never be another sin committed by us."

Then have you read where God says 18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 1 Cor. 6:18

Have you read where He says 1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[a] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 1 Cor. 7:1-2

Have you read where He says 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. 1 John 1:8-10

But as with all things, God's Word means nothing to the heart that makes up it's mind to live in sin

I have read the Book of Ephesis were the Bible says over and over again that the the Christian Ephesians are "in Christ." So I must say I have some problems seeing how you get some of your Biblical statements you talk about so much.

If you are a Christian, you are in Christ. What's difficult about that?

 

[dayhiker]

savedandhappy1,
I dont think anyone would say its loving to want someone to go to hell. Nor do I think anyone would say someones actions trying to keep a person from going to hell is unloving. So I believe peoples intentions are good.

To me I see some Christians taking verses that are that aren't in my mind very dogmatic about exactly what they are refering to and being willing to comdemn Christians with those verses.

Take smoking that has been mentions. I don't see anywere in the Bible that it says smoking is a sin. Now I'd say its has a short term benifit at best that can lead to cancer. But I can say the same type of thing about driving a car. I can be in an accident any time and be hurt for life, or even die. But I don't see driving a car to be a sin.

I've experienced this type of thing over and over again as a Christian. I was in a Sunday School class just over a year ago when a woman said watching football was a sin. I said I don't think so. Then she decided it wasn't a sin either.

So I follow my understanding of what Jesus was saying to the pharisees about all their man made traditions. Jesus intentionally broke their traditions of men over and over and was killed for doing so. Why, because the pharisees were sure these tradtions were equal to God's word. Yet, I see some people wanting to make man made rules today and burdens on people heads again today. To me that isn't following Jesus' example.

dayhiker

 

[dayhiker]

Zaac,
Those are very good verses. But I didn't see anything about homosexual acts in them.

1 John 1:8-10 is what I believe, I read your post to say if we live in sin. This verse says we sin, we fall short, sometimes? once in a while? To me to live in sin is to go out with a mean spirit and intetionally hurt people.

As Christians loving in Christ, we do things out of love. Now sometimes because we are human those things that we went for to be loving turn out not to be loving. So they were sin. But that wasn't our intent. Yes, I repent, say I'm sorry when I mess up, or sin. That's not living in sin in my book. To me a sinner, unsaved person lives in sin, they are the sinner. They too need to repent as you so forcefully said.


dayhiker

 

[Miracle Storm]

Let me try and point out the differences I see here. You say you smoke and know that it is a sin, but can't seem to quit, right? You say you were a drunkard, and that Praise the Lord you were freed from this addiction, right?

I Praise the Lord with you on the freedom you have received from the Lord!!!!!!

Now the differences. You admit that the things you were and are doing are sins, but those who don't believe that homosexuality is a sin aren't admitting that their actions are sinful.

That doesn't equate them being not saved. I'm sick of seeing other judge the hearts of other people.
Point out the sin. I have no problem with that. I do it as well. I show Scripture that condemn homosexuality, but not the person as being without salvation through Christ.

So the question would be, if someone won't admit that something is a sin can they truely be saved? I have posted this as a question before on this site, and been told I am comdemning by asking the question and asking for scriptures to support any answers.

My answer to you would be, "Yes, they can be saved even if they are in denial of some sin in their life, no matter what that sin is."
Many Christians are in denial and it is a slow walk. We are all at different places in our walk with Christ. It is our duty to point out sin. Directing people in the way they should go
Romans 7:7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law.
Romans 3:19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Romans 3:21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

I was shown a scripture in Hebrews that I feel answered the question for me, and I will try and find it to post.

I hope this helps answer why some people believe the way they do. I'm not speaking for everyone, but for myself and why I am concerned that many are being deceived and will be turned away from the doors of heaven when they leave this world. If I didn't love them, then I can assure you I wouldn't be concerned about where they speand eternity. It isn't some I am a better Christian than anyone, because NONE, let me repeat that NONE of us are worthy of the eternal life we receive from our Lord and Saviour.
I would consider any debates about this and other subjects a waste of my time if I didn't care deeply about souls. Yet, it is amazing how that concern and caring is considered hateful. I guess it just makes the scriptures which say good will be considered bad and bad good have true meaning to me. I never thought I would see the day that not wanting someone to go to hell would be considered a terrible thing. Yet, here I am considered a hateful bigot for caring.

There will probably be post saying what a liar I am and how .........well this is really all I am going to say. Hope this helps you understand some peoples thoughts.

I have no doubt of your concern for others.

If you're going to say that based upon the posts on this board, then righteously judging, you would have to conclude that gays hate Christians too.

Okay, I read through your posts and you didn't even understand the OP from what I gather or my second post to you.
That bolded part right there. What are you saying to all homosexuals? Your not saying hey buddy/lady, your stuck in sin and you need to repent cause a man reaps what he sows. Are you not in fact implying that all people that sin in such a way are not saved? How do you think it is portrayed to them?
Unless you meant to say "gay Christians" Which I don't understand why you would do that.
Damn! I just want people to get it through their heads.
Don't tell people that are saved that they couldn't possibly be because they still have sin in their life.
Go ahead, condemn the sin, but don't you condemn that person by telling them they are not Christian because of sin. That's not your place. But of course you can do what you want, but that is not a loving rebuke. That is condemnation, when in fact you may very well be talking to a fellow brother or sister in Christ, but discount them as one.

Romans 10:6
But the righteousness that is by faith says:
"Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]"
(that is, to bring Christ down)
7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]"
(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8But what does it say?
"The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]


Again I believe homosexuality to be sin, but I'm tierd of seeing the "Your not a Christian" crap!

 

[savedandhappy1]

savedandhappy1,
I dont think anyone would say its loving to want someone to go to hell. Nor do I think anyone would say someones actions trying to keep a person from going to hell is unloving. So I believe peoples intentions are good.

I don't believe it would be loving either if someone wanted someone to go to hell.

To me I see some Christians taking verses that are that aren't in my mind very dogmatic about exactly what they are refering to and being willing to comdemn Christians with those verses.

I will have to say I don't understand what you are trying to say here, sorry.

On condemning tho I will say I have been accused of this because I say that homosexuality is a sin. I have been called names and told I was deceived by the devil, and even told I am of the devil. So I guess I would have to ask who is condemning who? Is someone saying that lying or stealing is a sin to someone who lies or steals condemning and judging? If it is than I am I guess.

Take smoking that has been mentions. I don't see anywere in the Bible that it says smoking is a sin. Now I'd say its has a short term benifit at best that can lead to cancer. But I can say the same type of thing about driving a car. I can be in an accident any time and be hurt for life, or even die. But I don't see driving a car to be a sin.

Doing things that will harm the body, which is the temple of God, could be one reason some believe it to be a sin. Also, doing anything to access is a sin, so I guess some would say that smoking over a certain amount would be a sin.

Smoking and driving a car is like comparing apples to oranges to me, sorry. There isn't a label on a car that says it is dangerous to our health or that it causes cancer. I just don't see any comparison here.

So I follow my understanding of what Jesus was saying to the pharisees about all their man made traditions. Jesus intentionally broke their traditions of men over and over and was killed for doing so. Why, because the pharisees were sure these tradtions were equal to God's word. Yet, I see some people wanting to make man made rules today and burdens on people heads again today. To me that isn't following Jesus' example.


dayhiker

So you believe that the list of sins, that are listed through out the Bible, that will keep people from inheriting the Kingdom of God are man made rules?

You speak of the examples Jesus gave, which correct me if I am wrong, but He told people to go and sin no more. He didn't say I know you don't believe this is a sin or since you like doing this it is ok I will pretend that it isn't wrong just because I love you.

He didn't change what a sin was or is, He just gave us the payment for them so that we can have forgiveness and eternal life.

 

[savedandhappy1]

That doesn't equate them being not saved. I'm sick of seeing other judge the hearts of other people.
Point out the sin. I have no problem with that. I do it as well. I show Scripture that condemn homosexuality, but not the person as being without salvation through Christ.

I don't believe I have ever condemned the person, but have been told I have because I point out the sin. I have been accused of judging for the same reason, and like you I get sick and tired of it myself.

My answer to you would be, "Yes, they can be saved even if they are in denial of some sin in their life, no matter what that sin is."
Many Christians are in denial and it is a slow walk. We are all at different places in our walk with Christ. It is our duty to point out sin. Directing people in the way they should go
Romans 7:7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law.
Romans 3:19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Romans 3:21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

I don't see how the scriptures above prove what you are trying to say. I see how the law is to make us conscious of sin, but if they don't believe the law is the same today as yesterday than??????????

I wish I could say that yes they are saved, and I will admit that I hope and pray they are, I just can't say that after alot of prayer and studing that that is the case. I don't believe I have ever told someone that they weren't saved tho. I can judge a person by their fruits, but I have never been able to see a persons heart. I can have my concerns and pray for them, but I can't and wouldn't want to keep them out of heaven. The fact is just the opposite, in that I would do anything I could to be sure I see them someday there.

So, here is my concern. If by not admitting something you are doing is a sin, name any sin here, are you not trying to make God into who you want Him to be? If.....................

I'm sorry I am really tired, and so will have to ask that I finish this answer tomorrow. I can't seem to keep track of my thoughts enough to finish the answer, Sorry, Goodnight.

 

[dayhiker]

Smoking and driving a car is like comparing apples to oranges to me, sorry. There isn't a label on a car that says it is dangerous to our health or that it causes cancer. I just don't see any comparison here.

quote]


savedandhappy,
To me the car and smoking aren't apples and oranges, but I've talked to otehrs that would say they are. If we say we aren't to do things that harm the body, then a lot of sports are sin and a lot of jobs are sin. Then it seems to be the poor that live in unhealthy hygiene situations would be sin.
So I can't see that as a definition of sin.
The 1 Cor.6:18-20 verses that mentions mentions that our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit I see as Paul talking about sex with in the idol temple prositutes. So this would be using our body to worship the idol thru sex.
Thus as I understand what Paul is saying doesn't fit smoking ciggaretes.

dayhiker

 

[Zaac]

Zaac,
Those are very good verses. But I didn't see anything about homosexual acts in them.

Dayhiker, what is the Biblical definition of fornication?

1 John 1:8-10 is what I believe, I read your post to say if we live in sin. This verse says we sin, we fall short, sometimes? once in a while? To me to live in sin is to go out with a mean spirit and intetionally hurt people.

What does God say? You notice how all you guys keep coming up with your own individual ideas about what is or is not sin? Yet the thing that you all have in common is that you continue to ignore what GOD says in favor of what YOU think.

As Christians loving in Christ, we do things out of love. Now sometimes because we are human those things that we went for to be loving turn out not to be loving. So they were sin. But that wasn't our intent. Yes, I repent, say I'm sorry when I mess up, or sin. That's not living in sin in my book. To me a sinner, unsaved person lives in sin, they are the sinner. They too need to repent as you so forcefully said.

Again, by your own admission, you're espousing what you believe, or as you say "in your book."

WHAT DOES GOD SAY?

 

[Zaac]

Okay, I read through your posts and you didn't even understand the OP from what I gather or my second post to you.

That bolded part right there. What are you saying to all homosexuals? Your not saying hey buddy/lady, your stuck in sin and you need to repent cause a man reaps what he sows. Are you not in fact implying that all people that sin in such a way are not saved? How do you think it is portrayed to them?

Unless you meant to say "gay Christians" Which I don't understand why you would do that.
Damn! I just want people to get it through their heads.
Don't tell people that are saved that they couldn't possibly be because they still have sin in their life.
Go ahead, condemn the sin, but don't you condemn that person by telling them they are not Christian because of sin. That's not your place. But of course you can do what you want, but that is not a loving rebuke. That is condemnation, when in fact you may very well be talking to a fellow brother or sister in Christ, but discount them as one.

I said what I intended to say. If the poster can deduce that Christians hate gays by the posts in this forum, then the poster should also be able to deduce that those gays hate Christians based upon their language as well.

 

[savedandhappy1]

Smoking and driving a car is like comparing apples to oranges to me, sorry. There isn't a label on a car that says it is dangerous to our health or that it causes cancer. I just don't see any comparison here.

quote]


savedandhappy,
To me the car and smoking aren't apples and oranges, but I've talked to otehrs that would say they are. If we say we aren't to do things that harm the body, then a lot of sports are sin and a lot of jobs are sin. Then it seems to be the poor that live in unhealthy hygiene situations would be sin.
So I can't see that as a definition of sin.
The 1 Cor.6:18-20 verses that mentions mentions that our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit I see as Paul talking about sex with in the idol temple prositutes. So this would be using our body to worship the idol thru sex.
Thus as I understand what Paul is saying doesn't fit smoking ciggaretes.

dayhiker

So you are saying that even tho the Holy Spirit comes and lives in us from the moment we accept Christ as our Saviour, that our bodies aren't really a temple of God unless it has something to do with idols and sex?

I would have you look at 1 Cor. 3:16-17, which speak of something alot deeper than that to me.

The apostle Paul taught, “You are the temple of God” (I Cor. 3:16). The reason he can say that is because we have been redeemed by the death of Jesus Christ. Because of redemption, the Holy Spirit has taken up residence in the redeemed.

Our bodies are sacred temples, holy unto the Lord. God has claimed by means of redemption our bodies, and what He claimed for His holy purpose we must yield to Him. “I beg you, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice” (Rom. 12:1). We will do what the apostle admonishes as we remind ourselves that we are His holy temple. If we have learned that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, we will keep it undefiled. “Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.”

From the moment you believe on Christ as your Savior, the Spirit of God dwells in you (Rom. 8:9). "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" (Romans 8:11). The apostle Paul clearly has in mind the glory of God filling the temple. Therefore, as the glory filled the temple of old, so the Holy Spirit dwells with the believer of Jesus Christ. “He dwells in you.” When a sinner has been born spiritually, God dwells in that holy place and that person can commune in fellowship with the LORD God in holiness. The Holy Spirit is a living person in the Godhead, who literally indwells us. The dwelling of the Holy Spirit in our bodies is a real indwelling of a real individual, spiritual person.

To the obedient disciple, Jesus promised that He and the Father “will come unto him and make our abode with Him” (John 14:23). We are to be God-possessed and indwelled by Him.

The indwelling Holy Spirit, a living person, a divine presence, is God’s means of reconciling the world unto Himself (2 Cor. 5:17).

There is no greater pleasure to the Holy Spirit than to dwell in His temple and do extraordinary work through ordinary people who have learned to make themselves available to Him to reign with “ungrieved” sovereignty.

I hope this makes clearer what I was trying to say last night when I was to tired to think.

 

[UberLutheran]

Well, for starters -- condemnation is lots of fun; and condemning others makes us feel good about ourselves at someone else's expense; and it's a real rush thinking about our going to some place the other person isn't going to - and making sure they know they aren't going there because not only have we condemned them, but we believe we've gotten God to condemn those people as well!

 

[Archivist]

There is no greater pleasure to the Holy Spirit than to dwell in His temple and do extraordinary work through ordinary people who have learned to make themselves available to Him to reign with “ungrieved” sovereignty.

But we all sin, so it is impossible for the Holy Ghost to dwell in any human being with "'ungrieved' sovereignty."

 

[savedandhappy1]

Well, for starters -- condemnation is lots of fun; and condemning others makes us feel good about ourselves at someone else's expense; and it's a real rush thinking about our going to some place the other person isn't going to - and making sure they know they aren't going there because not only have we condemned them, but we believe we've gotten God to condemn those people as well!

I truely hope you are making a very bad joke!!!!

I can't understand how anyone would think it to be fun or that it would make anyone feel good by condemning someone!

Are there really people who think that it is a real rush to think people are going to hell and not heaven, which is what I assume you are saying?

It makes me very sad and it even makes me cry when I speak to people who either don't believe in God or Christ. I spend all night praying for people when they say they don't believe that there is a hell, and that if God would send someone there they wouldn't want to worship Him anyway.

I just don't believe that anyone who has been washed by the blood of Christ could feel any of the things you have stated, I just can't.

 

[savedandhappy1]

But we all sin, so it is impossible for the Holy Ghost to dwell in any human being with "'ungrieved' sovereignty."

I am not sure if you are saying that you don't believe the Holy Spirit comes to live in you like the Bible says He does, or if the "ungrieved sovereignty" is the part you are against. Could you please clear this up for me so I can answer correctly? Thanks.

 

[Archivist]

I am not sure if you are saying that you don't believe the Holy Spirit comes to live in you like the Bible says He does, or if the "ungrieved sovereignty" is the part you are against. Could you please clear this up for me so I can answer correctly? Thanks.

At no point did I say that I do not believe that the Holy Ghost dwells in us. I thought that what I wrote was clear: "we all sin, so it is impossible for the Holy Ghost to dwell in any human being with 'ungrieved' sovereignty." Because we are all sinners, the Holy Ghost is always going to grieve for our sins.

 

[UberLutheran]

I truely hope you are making a very bad joke!!!!

I can't understand how anyone would think it to be fun or that it would make anyone feel good by condemning someone!

Are there really people who think that it is a real rush to think people are going to hell and not heaven, which is what I assume you are saying?

It makes me very sad and it even makes me cry when I speak to people who either don't believe in God or Christ. I spend all night praying for people when they say they don't believe that there is a hell, and that if God would send someone there they wouldn't want to worship Him anyway.

I just don't believe that anyone who has been washed by the blood of Christ could feel any of the things you have stated, I just can't.

I was being very, VERY ironic.

Although I do wonder sometimes if there might be people who are callous enough, and vicious enough to rejoice in the idea that such-and-such is going to end up in Hey-yell (and who get a real rush from those thoughts).

I'm not one of those people, though.

 

[savedandhappy1]

At no point did I say that I do not believe that the Holy Ghost dwells in us. I thought that what I wrote was clear: "we all sin, so it is impossible for the Holy Ghost to dwell in any human being with 'ungrieved' sovereignty." Because we are all sinners, the Holy Ghost is always going to grieve for our sins.

nevermind