Concerning Saints

[xfisherman]

By the way,can anyone find any instances of someone praying to a Saint in the Bible,if there is none,this praying to Saints is a man made invention.

 

[narnia59]

By the way,can anyone find any instances of someone praying to a Saint in the Bible,if there is none,this praying to Saints is a man made invention.

Luke 16:27 shows someone in Hades praying to a saint -- the rich man and Abraham. Most modern translations don't use the word 'pray' but instead ask or beg. But if you check a concordance you find the same Greek word (erōt&#333 is what Christ uses in the Gospel of John when he says this:

John 17:9 I pray for them. I don't pray for the world, but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

John 17:15 I pray not that you would take them from the world, but that you would keep them from the evil one.

John 17:20 Not for these only do I pray, but for those also who believe in me through their word

It's a good example of how the word "pray" does not have the limitations within Scripture (speaking to God alone) as some like to place on it. Either all communication with God is not prayer, or all "prayer" is not limited to communication with God. It's also interesting that one could believe that those in heaven can 'hear' those in Hades but not those on earth -- how does that make sense?

The other example is the Biblical truth that when we ourselves pray, we are lifted into the presence of God in the heavenly Jerusalem. Hebrews 12:22-24 portrays how we as Christians pray as compared to that of Moses not being able to touch the holy mountain. It says that we have come to the spirits of righteous men made perfect. The view that in order for saints to hear us they have to somehow be monitoring the entire world contradicts this Scriptural undertanding -- they don't have to come to us -- we go to them and come into their presence every time we pray.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

Add to that St. Paul's insistence that Christ has united heaven and earth into himself (Eph 1:9-10) that we live with him whether awake or asleep (1 Thess 5:10), and that there is no division in the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:25) -- Scripture seems pretty clear that the idea that fellow Christians on earth can pray for us but those in heaven cannot creates a division that Scripture says isn't there.

 

[Rhamiel]

By the way,can anyone find any instances of someone praying to a Saint in the Bible,if there is none,this praying to Saints is a man made invention.

I believe that it is a tradition from the Apostles that has been handed down
St.Paul tells us to follow what he tells us in letter and in word
this verbal tradition can be seen in the actions of the early church

 

[chilehed]

...I believe all people can become Saints and do not need to go through an official system of canonization...

This is exactly the position of the Catholic Church. There are a lot more saints in heaven than those who have been canonized.

...or have to be Christian...

The Catholic Church holds out the possibility that non-Christians may be able to attain heaven, by the grace of God and the work of Christ, in a way that we are not aware of. Any such people who are in heaven are also saints, just as much as those who have been canonized.

 

[Erose]

Degrees, no. Titles, yes. Remember; we are all saints, but the Babe Ruth's of the bunch are recognized as Saints.
Although some of those who are not yet officially recognized are sometimes called "Blessed". An example is Fr. Seraphim (Rose) of Platina who reposed in the 1980s. Though he is not yet officially recognized as a Saint, much of the laity and clergy believe that he shall be at some time and may refer to him as "Blessed Seraphim Rose".

Martyrs, heiromartyrs, confessors, fools-for-Christ, Equals of the Apostles, myrrh-gusher, right-believing, etc; are all titles for saints which can give you a good idea of what the saint did and whom he/she was.

Pretty much identical the the Catholic method. There are two steps to being canonized as a saint: blessed and saint.

 

[Erose]

By the way,can anyone find any instances of someone praying to a Saint in the Bible,if there is none,this praying to Saints is a man made invention.

There is a ton of instances in the OT where people prayed to angels. What about Jesus in the Garden with Moses and Elijah? Here are two saints that Jesus himself is praying to. We also have the passage in the book of Revelations of the Elders bringing to the Thrown of God the prayers of the saints on earth. Rev 5: [8] And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

 

[PaladinValer]

All Christians are saints. Some are recognized as Saints after they pass away. In the end, eventually, probably all who experience heaven will be considered Saints.

 

[Chrysostoma]

There is a ton of instances in the OT where people prayed to angels. What about Jesus in the Garden with Moses and Elijah? Here are two saints that Jesus himself is praying to. We also have the passage in the book of Revelations of the Elders bringing to the Thrown of God the prayers of the saints on earth. Rev 5 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:[/I]

I'm with you on the prayers of the saints in the book of Revelation, but I think you may have confused the Transfiguration (which is when Jesus talks with Moses and Elijah) and the prayer of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. Perhaps you could point us more directly to your reference?

In Christ,
Chrysostoma