Concerning Hell

[Zaac]

I don't think that was the point. The point is that the accounting you propose is utterly unfair -- a large majority of humanity will fail the accounting simply because of an accident of birth. It is not an accounting if God chooses for us whether we will pass or fail.

God has never said that He was fair. He says he is a JUST God. And there is nothing unjust about His judgment.

If CHristians will get off their patushkas and GO!, those who you think are disadvantaged by birth will have an opportunity.

ANd YOU decide whether or not you pass or fail, and it's a ONE question test.

 

[Catholicism]

God has never said that He was fair. He says he is a JUST God. And there is nothing unjust about His judgment.

If CHristians will get off their patushkas and GO!, those who you think are disadvantaged by birth will have an opportunity.

ANd YOU decide whether or not you pass or fail, and it's a ONE question test.

How can God not be fair, yet be just? (Being just is giving someone the minimum of what they disserve, isn't fairness the same thing?) Sorry that just doesn't make sense.

As for if whether or not people who have never had a chance to know God personally go to hell. I like to relate to the book The Last Battle by C.S. Lewis. That is a good example of how God might judge those people. So I think it wise to trust in God’s mercy in this matter.

 

[Zaac]

How can God not be fair, yet be just? (Being just is giving someone the minimum of what they disserve, isn't fairness the same thing?) Sorry that just doesn't make sense.

You have ascribed to God a definition of just that is not Biblical.

I didn't say God is not fair. I said that He has never said that He is fair. He has never said that His intent is to be fair. There is a HUGE differene between being fair and being JUST. They are NOT the same thing.

 

[Ledifni]

God has never said that He was fair. He says he is a JUST God. And there is nothing unjust about His judgment.

Oh yes there is. If we are sent to Hell for no reason other than being born to the wrong parents, then his judgement is unjust.

 

[Ledifni]

As for if whether or not people who have never had a chance to know God personally go to hell. I like to relate to the book The Last Battle by C.S. Lewis. That is a good example of how God might judge those people. So I think it wise to trust in God’s mercy in this matter.

There are many things I dislike about C.S. Lewis, but his belief about Hell is not one of them. In fact, I judge from the story in The Last Battle that Lewis would go a step further than forgiveness because of one's birthplace. It seems to me that he is saying that anyone who works towards righteousness and the Kingdom of God is a loyal servant of God and recipient of Christ's salvation, even if he does not know it. That would include even those who know about Christianity and do not believe it, I think, which is what I would expect of a just God.

A just God would care more about people's choices than about whether they believe in him. Doesn't an all-powerful being who so desperately needs the praise and admiration of us tiny humans seem a bit petty to you?

 

[WittyBanter]

I propose that if God allows 1 person - just 1 - to burn in Hell forever with NO CHANCE of being saved, then he is NOT just, fair, or good. Think about it - it would the ethical equivalent of you taking a person and for no reason at all locking them in a torture chamber and inflicting punishment on them forever. What would you think of that person?
So unless you can tell me every last person on earth has at least had the chance to be saved, I am afraid that God is not just in the least.

 

[Catholicism]

A Man chooses to suffer in eternal torment because he chooses to reject God and all His goodness. If you have nothing that is good (no rest, no comfort, no peace) then eternal torment is your only option. What hell is I'm not exactly sure. But I think that it is more of a state of mind or being, not really a place.

 

[Sosorius]

A Man chooses to suffer in eternal torment because he chooses to reject God and all His goodness.

Incorrect. A man who has never known of God, such as the people whom I spoke of earlier, never had that choice. Shall they burn for it all the same?

Grateful Heart, in perhaps a Christian sense, I do indeed care for the other people. I was apparently under the false impression that Christians also cared for humanity. What you are suggesting is akin to forgetting that Hitler was the proprietor of mass genocide simply because I did not happen to be one of his targets. I do indeed care about the eternal torture of another human being in a very deep sense, and if you are Christian I believe you should as well. If you are not Christian, then even simple ethics should push you to. I would not care if someone across a vast ocean stubbed his toe, got a divorce, or got beat up in a school yard fight. But eternal torture? I am disturbed when I hear of any torture. Eternal torture would most certainly perturb me.

 

[joemaloy]

Seems that christians that believe in sending some one to Hell and being burned and tortured is justise for the unbeliever, but sending a murderer/rapist to the gas chamber is not.

Need to get on one side of the road or other.
I dont believe that God has a "GRAY" area, and neither should "christians"

A god that does thing just because, "I am God" is also selfish.

Creating a species that MOST are going to be burned in hell, IS selfish and unjustified.

If God cant UNCREATE a person so they dont have to Burned forever is NOT ALLPOWERFULL.

God has to be this or that, NOT both otherwise he is a hippocrite.

Which side of the road are you going to chose that your God comes from.

What truth are you going to believe in, cause the bible isnt telling the whole truth.

 

[grateful heart]

Why are we arguing with heathens who do not even believe in our God let alone Hell? seems like a waste of time

 

[Sosorius]

Why are we arguing with heathens who do not even believe in our God let alone Hell? seems like a waste of time

That is an excellent question. Therein, you may stop posting now. Given that the forum is apparently for Christian interaction with non-Christians, you seem to have walked into the wrong room anyways. If you can not do what the forum requires, then leave the forum. If you can not do what Christianity requires, leave Christianity. I can promise you, however, that no second ever spent defending your God was a "waste of time," and I am saddened that you think such. Dedicating yourself in a half-hearted manner to your religion is a waste of time. I would rather, and I believe your God agrees with me in this, see a Christian write many paragraphs of information that I will never even consider to be true than simply say "this seems like a waste of time."

 

[grateful heart]

That is an excellent question. Therein, you may stop posting now. Given that the forum is apparently for Christian interaction with non-Christians, you seem to have walked into the wrong room anyways. If you can not do what the forum requires, then leave the forum. If you can not do what Christianity requires, leave Christianity. I can promise you, however, that no second ever spent defending your God was a "waste of time," and I am saddened that you think such. Dedicating yourself in a half-hearted manner to your religion is a waste of time. I would rather, and I believe your God agrees with me in this, see a Christian write many paragraphs of information that I will never even consider to be true than simply say "this seems like a waste of time

Opinions vary

 

[joemaloy]

Why are we arguing with heathens who do not even believe in our God let alone Hell? seems like a waste of time

Now I NEVER said I didnt believe in God, I just said something more is going on than the bible alone is saying.

I dont think MY God is arrogant enough to create a species while "all knowing" that most are going to burned and tortured forever.

And if you or anyone else believes in God; "Just because" is no different than believeing in god so you wont go to hell.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

Secondly that God's absolute foreknowledge is the same as 'pre-programming' all his creatures so that they are simply incapable of making any kind of free moral choice and therefore of being morally responsible for their own actions. The truth however is quite different. Although God is omniscient this would only have an adverse effect upon our choices (moral or otherwise) if we also had access to God's omniscient foreknowledge, but since we don't it is absolutely irrelevent to our choice as finite creatures whether God is omniscient or not. God's omniscient foreknowledge neither adversely nor 'pro-versely' (?!) influence our choices. The knowledge may well be God's but the moral choice is ours and it is for that reason that God is totally justified in holding us as his creatures morally accountable for our actions.
Simonline.

that makes no sense... in that in your system God is the Creator. This means that he created you with a foreknowledge of how you would chose... if he was simply kicked back somewhere and knew everything, we have a moral responsibility... but he supposedly created us knowing what would happen... in essence, creating us in such a way that we would chose either heaven or hell... if god is creator and knows all, he is responsible for the actions of the whole of his creation . to demonstrate:
1. somone ELSE creates a robot with artificial intelligence. i somehow know that this robot will kill people... the deaths of those people are not my responsibility (except insofar as I had the power to stop the robot, which raises further problems if god is omnipotent)
2. I create a robot with artificial intelligence. It is programmed to choose, but I already know (because I know everything) that it will kill people. I know this before I even create it. In this case the killings are clearly my responsibility. This responsibility grows when it is found out that I am all powerful, and could have created the robot in a way that it DIDN'T kill people.
When the robot returns to me, I install him with a chip that makes him feel pain at all times to punish him for killing the people.


this is absurd. a god who has all knowledge and all power surely IS responsible for any action or "sin" of his creation. he had the power and foreknowledge to create them in any way that he saw fit, and he created them in such a way that they would chose this sin.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

no takers?

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

yup... we're right... either no hell or evil god... (or no hell AND no evil god)


next discussion?

 

[joemaloy]

OR an Evil God and a Hell, doh!! We are all screwed now.

 

[Catholicism]

First off, Free will does not stop becoming "free" by God being omniscient. Just because God knows what we are going to do, does not mean that we do not have a choice. The complaint of those who say that if God knows what we are going to do then we don't have "real" freedom is stating that God's foreknowledge of an event somehow limits the event and the choice of the individual. This implies that God is performing an action upon the even or individual.

Secondly, Hell was originally created for Satan and his angels. It also will contain those who still reject God after the final judgment.

Thirdly, is it unjust for God to send people to hell? Sin is wrong and it should and will be punished. What would you have God do to those who purposely oppose Him and do evil? Should he ignore that which is wrong? Should he turn His head and not be holy and righteous?



Fourthly, No one is predestined to go to hell. To say people are predestined to go to hell is like saying they do not have a free will.

God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen. (CCC, 1037)

Fifthly, if God were to eliminate all evil at this very moment who would still be here in another moment? So in a sense, he would either have to destroy us or erase our free will to prevent us from doing evil. Now of course God has done something about this evil by sending His Son to die for us, which allows all sins to be forgiven.

I’m sorry is this is a little sketchy and not very detailed. I’m not very good with details and so forth. In many ways this post is rather basic.:o

 

[Catholicism]

OR an Evil God and a Hell, doh!! We are all screwed now.

An evil God makes no sense because he would not of created us if he were evil.

 

[joemaloy]

Why not, He is going to burn you in hell just because he CAN , and there aint nothing you going to do about it.

And creating a species in knowing that 80% are going to burned in hell aint evil,arrogant,selfish.

If he had any common sence he WOULD NOT have created us.

Would you allow a child by FREE CHOICE pick up a can of gas and pour it on her/his self and light a match, even if that child knew the conseqences? I THINK NOT!