Concerning a specific Luther quote

[Llucid]

alright, so I've been doing some research and came across a quote from Martin Luther that has put me in a state of shell shock. Here it is:

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly. For he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here, we have to sin. This life is not the dwelling place of righteousness but, as Peter says, we look for a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. … Pray boldly—you too are a mighty sinner." - Martin Luther

How does this fit in with repentance? How does this apply to the Holy nation of God, the Royal Priesthood that we are called to be?

 

[Anoetos]

alright, so I've been doing some research and came across a quote from Martin Luther that has put me in a state of shell shock. Here it is:

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly. For he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here, we have to sin. This life is not the dwelling place of righteousness but, as Peter says, we look for a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. … Pray boldly—you too are a mighty sinner." - Martin Luther

How does this fit in with repentance? How does this apply to the Holy nation of God, the Royal Priesthood that we are called to be?

First of all, Luther is not encouraging Melanchthon to sin. He is talking about human sinfulness being "bold"; i.e. it is something very large and requires a great savior.

The point of the passage is about the all surpassing sufficiency of the redemption we have in Christ.

Luther, more than anyone else I can think of from the era was prone to hyperbolic statements like these. They make him something of an easy target for those who would pick low hanging fruit as it were.

He was responsible for a lot of errors but this is not one of them in my opinion. He is merely encouraging Philip Melanchthon his friend and protege to a lively faith in a Very Great Christ Whose sacrifice was sufficient to cover even the "boldest" sins.

In another way what he is saying is not to worry too much about sin, Christ has won the victory.

I find no fault with it.

 

[Llucid]

"In another way what he is saying is not to worry too much about sin"

This is what I'm speaking of. If sin separates us from God, how can we not worry about it?

 

[Anoetos]

"In another way what he is saying is not to worry too much about sin"

This is what I'm speaking of. If sin separates us from God, how can we not worry about it?

Because Jesus has solved the problem, He has bridged the gap, there is no condemnation for us who are in Him, we have been redeemed and reconciled to God through Him. All is well.

 

[Llucid]

I definitely agree that Christ's sacrifice paid for the penalty of sin, and that we are forgiven. But what about the relationship with God that we are called to experience during this life, a relationship that we are free to pursue once we repent and sin no more? Aren't we to try to be Holy as He is Holy?

 

[Anoetos]

I definitely agree that Christ's sacrifice paid for the penalty of sin, and that we are forgiven. But what about the relationship with God that we are called to experience during this life, a relationship that we are free to pursue once we repent and sin no more? Aren't we to try to be Holy as He is Holy?

Of course and I don't see that Luther is denying that.

 

[Anoetos]

Anyhow, this is a bit weird, a former Lutheran now Catholic defending Luther...



Why don't you take your question/comment/interest to the Theologia Crucis forum and ask Luther's ecclesial progeny?

 

[Llucid]

"As long as we are here, we have to sin"

"This life is not the dwelling place for righteousness"


These above statements take a clearly fatalistic view concerning the Holy life. It's as if there's no point in even trying, because you can't accomplish it.

 

[Anoetos]

Luther is just being thoroughly Augustinian. He is saying that sin is inescapable in this life.

Another point he is pressing is the eschatological hope, that true and final sanctification will only be realized in glory. This is, actually, a Protestant commonplace.

As a Catholic, I cannot completely agree, but I certainly do see that there is in heaven a perfection of all things inaccessible to us in this life.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

If one accepts the doctrine of original sin, then we must accept that we sin boldly no matter how we try not to. We all fail daily because of the old Adam that dwells in us.

Since salvation comes from faith alone (Sola Fide), we are to rejoice in our faith.

Trying obsessively to keep the law to justify ourselves just bogs us down in pietism and legalism. Pharisees as it were. This then also becomes an even bolder sin in that we end up putting our own efforts before the salvation won for us by Christ.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Anyhow, this is a bit weird, a former Lutheran now Catholic defending Luther...

Don't feel bad, I frequently end up defending my RCC brothers and sisters with anti-catholic protestants and reformed types.

Why don't you take your question/comment/interest to the Theologia Crucis forum and ask Luther's ecclesial progeny?

I are one. Stop by for a visit any time, we even welcome a bit of friendly debate!

Anoetos, don't you be a stranger either! Fallen or not, we still love ya!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Quiet all of a sudden. Did I say something?

 

[tz620q]

Quiet all of a sudden. Did I say something?

In the land of the stone throwers, people run from the man in the armor.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Anyhow, this is a bit weird, a Catholic defending Luther...

... and doing a good job.






.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Don't feel bad, I frequently end up defending my RCC brothers and sisters with anti-catholic protestants and reformed types.

DOES feel weird, doesn't it!

I'm grown tired of posting in the "Catholics worship Mary!" type threads - but I still do.


True story (some of you have heard before). I was homeschooled, and this was done via a group affliated with a large Baptist school. Anyway, the high school group was entirely dominated by "Evangelical" and fundamentalist types. While I don't recall any "anti-Catholicism", a lot of myths abounded. I was known for being very active in the RCC, and one day, out of the blue, the Rosary came up. I mentioned that I had one and had prayed it on several occasions. You could have heard a pin drop. (I was regarded as spiritual, informed and of course the girls regarded me as cute as could be - but my wonderings in Catholicism provided an on-going mystery to the group). Anyway, the leader (a Baptist minister and vice principal of the school) ask me to tell the group about the Rosary. So I did. And I asked if they wanted me to bring it and show them how it works the next month, and that request was made. So I did. Now, YES, the ".... pray for me now and at the moment of my death" thing caused some discussion - but I noted that was added AFTER Luther and that I usually prayed it without that part. NOT ONLY did no one seem to have a problem with the Rosary (with that modification) but where SHOCKED by how biblical and sound it was.

Mark, this is EXACTLY why I'm at CF. Myths can be debunked. And even if agreement is not reached (and I don't have that on my agenda - or expectation), mutual understanding can be advanced. And not infrequently is.

I are one. Stop by for a visit any time, we even welcome a bit of friendly debate!

Anoetos, don't you be a stranger either! Fallen or not, we still love ya!

.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Mark, this is EXACTLY why I'm at CF. Myths can be debunked. And even if agreement is not reached (and I don't have that on my agenda - or expectation), mutual understanding can be advanced. And not infrequently is.










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Me too!