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Concerning 1844 and the IJ

Byfaithalone1

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Well he IS interceding for us now -- but at that future point in Rev 15 he will not be.
Then He lied when He promised that He would never cease to intercede for us.

Did you really think that in heaven - Christ will continue to ask the Father to keep forgiving you for your ongoing rebellion even in heaven? Surely you think that it stops at some point.
If it does, it does not stop because Christ is no longer willing and able, for He always lives to intercede for us. If He stops to intercede for man prior to His second coming, then He has lied to us and His promises cannot be trusted.
You have to ignore a lot of scripture to go down that road.
As my posts in this thread have indicated, this is in to in fact the case. In addition to 1 Corinthians 15 (discussed in my last post in this thread), we have the following:
“Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones.’” Matt. 19:27-28

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. He who was seated on the throne said, I am making everything new! Then he said, Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." Rev. 21:1-5
Heb 7 and 8 is where we find the role of Christ IN the heavenly sanctuary AS our mediator as the one who intercedes for us.
"Intercedes for us" is not the same thing as "judges us." Please notice the difference.

BFA
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Rom 2:13 makes it clear that you are justified by works as James said in that future justification "you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" James 2. Romans 2 argues "it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of all mankind." Rom 2:13-16.

First, let me thank you for publicly confirming that you believe that men are (or will be) justified by their works. It seems that SDAism is not always forthcoming in acknowledging its true position on this subject. The doctrine of the investigative judgment clearly reveals that SDAism believes and teaches that men will be justified by their works. I praise God, however, that there are many individual SDAs who reject this position.

Since you've raised it, let's consider what Romans 2-3 says:

"1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11For there is no partiality with God.
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. 17But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
18and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,
19and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
20a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,
21you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
22You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.
25For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.
3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
4May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
"THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."
5But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.)
6May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?
7But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?
8And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come"? Their condemnation is just.
9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. 21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
One might ask how it benefits a man to believe that his current justification is not based on his works if, ultimately, his entrance into Heaven is based upon his works?

If man is justified by faith apart from works of the law, why conclude that man is justified by faith and the works of the law?

BFA
 
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BobRyan

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Originally Posted by BobRyan
Rom 2:13 makes it clear that you are justified by works as James said in that future justification

"you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" James 2.

Romans 2 argues "it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of all mankind." Rom 2:13-16.​


First, let me thank you for publicly confirming that you believe that men are (or will be) justified by their works.

I keep repeating that in my "two justifications" statements. This time will do as well as the others I suppose.

the "Justification future" is clearly based on Rom 2:7,13 and Matt 7. Pretty hard to miss.

It seems that SDAism is not always forthcoming in acknowledging its true position

How so?

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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BFA
Since you've raised it, let's consider what Romans 2-3 says:

"1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?



Since a Romans 2 thread was opened recently just to deal with this topic in full detail I will respond to your Romans 2 comments there.

in Christ,

Bob

 
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