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Concerning 1844 and the IJ

A

AndrewK788

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Hey guys,
I've been here over 1 year and have frequented the prog forums but I still don't entirely understand your position on this topic other than you reject it. I'm not wishing to start a debate or anything. I'm just curious what most of you believe.

So concerning 1844 and the investigative judgment, specifically what do you find unbiblical about it? Also, if the IJ is false, exactly what DID happen in 1844? Or do you believe that time prophecy to be falsely interpreted from the beginning?

P.S. please don't answer questions in questions. :wave: As I said, I'm honestly not trying to debate anyone. I'm just curious about your thoughts on this.

God bless

Andrew
 

Avonia

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Hey guys,
I've been here over 1 year and have frequented the prog forums but I still don't entirely understand your position on this topic other than you reject it. I'm not wishing to start a debate or anything. I'm just curious what most of you believe.

So concerning 1844 and the investigative judgment, specifically what do you find unbiblical about it? Also, if the IJ is false, exactly what DID happen in 1844? Or do you believe that time prophecy to be falsely interpreted from the beginning?

P.S. please don't answer questions in questions. :wave: As I said, I'm honestly not trying to debate anyone. I'm just curious about your thoughts on this.

God bless

Andrew
Opinions vary. I believe there was a study in 2002 concluding that 1/3 of all Adventists have questions about the IJ interpretation. This is from memory - I could be wrong.

That it is not "scriptural" is an interesting argument. Our understanding of many issues progresses beyond that of the Bible writers. But, having said that, IJ is quite an interesting doctrine! :)
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Hey guys,
I've been here over 1 year and have frequented the prog forums but I still don't entirely understand your position on this topic other than you reject it. I'm not wishing to start a debate or anything. I'm just curious what most of you believe.

So concerning 1844 and the investigative judgment, specifically what do you find unbiblical about it? Also, if the IJ is false, exactly what DID happen in 1844? Or do you believe that time prophecy to be falsely interpreted from the beginning?

P.S. please don't answer questions in questions. :wave: As I said, I'm honestly not trying to debate anyone. I'm just curious about your thoughts on this.

God bless

Andrew

I find no Biblical basis for the following teachings of Ellen G. White that relate to the investigative judgment:
(1) Christ's judgment precedes His second coming (see Matt. 25:31-36, 2 Timothy 4:1, Luke 19:22-23, John 12:46-48 and 1 Corinthians 4:4-5).

(2) Salvation will one day hinge upon law-keeping or that which a man does (see Titus 3:5, Romans 10:1-4, Galatians 3-5, Romans 7:1-6 and 2 Corinthians 3).

(3) Man's probation closes prior to Christ's second coming and Christ will cease to intercede for man once probation closes (see Matthew 28:20, John 14:18, Hebres 7:24 and 13:5).

(4) Man must reach a state of perfection prior to the second coming and man's character is not changed at the second coming (see 1 Corinthians 15, Matthew 19:27-28, Revelation 21:1-5, Romans 3, Isaiah 64 and Romans 7).

(5) Man forms the character and it is left with man to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement (see Romans 15:16, 1 Corinthians 6:11, 1 Thes. 5:23 and 2 Thes. 2:13).
Further, I find no Biblical basis for the year-day principle that is the basis of the SDA teaching regarding the investigative judgment.

BFA
 
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JonMiller

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It isn't emphasized or discussed in scripture, it isn't at all obvious and isn't directly pointed to, so it can't be important. Additionally, there are several things which suggest that people aren't understanding the temple activities when they say they point to it (See Tall's thread).

Finally, important points:
1. Can the IJ be for God? No! God can judge and do all that instantly, He is omniscient and omnipotent and all that implies. The whole idea of God needing to open up books and judge us is ridiculous. In atheist friend of mine (one who thinks that Christians can be reasonable people and be the result of reasonable decisions, and who considers me to be reasonable) found this quite obvious also (When I was explaining the unique doctrines of SDAs and got to IJ he was like "wait a minute, that doesn't make sense").
2. Can the IJ be for us? No, we don't see it, we don't take part in it, we can't know what is going on with it. If it isn't for us or for God, then why is it important for us to think about it (that is assuming it is even right)? If it is truth, then it is for the angels/other intelligiences and I don't really see why we need to think about it at all.

JM
 
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BobRyan

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Hey guys,
I've been here over 1 year and have frequented the prog forums but I still don't entirely understand your position on this topic other than you reject it. I'm not wishing to start a debate or anything. I'm just curious what most of you believe.

So concerning 1844 and the investigative judgment, specifically what do you find unbiblical about it? Also, if the IJ is false, exactly what DID happen in 1844? Or do you believe that time prophecy to be falsely interpreted from the beginning?

P.S. please don't answer questions in questions. :wave: As I said, I'm honestly not trying to debate anyone. I'm just curious about your thoughts on this.

God bless

Andrew

Also interested in seeing the answer to your post... but while we wait for various members to contribute... I am a bit surprised that there is an assumption that moderate SDAs would reject the distinctive bible-based IJ and 1844 teaching of Adventists.

Seems like a self-defeating position.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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BFA -- good list.

Do you mind if I "borrow" it??:cool:

I find Biblical basis for the following teachings on the investigative judgment:
(1) Christ's judgment precedes His second coming (Dan 7:22, 2Cor 5:10, Rev 22 "My reward is with me")

(2) Future Justification will one day hinge upon what we have done (the good fruit of the good tree) as Christ states in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord lord ... but he who DOES...".

Rom 2:13-16 "Not the hearers of the Law are Just before God but the doers of the Law WILL BE justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge"

(3) Man's probation closes prior to Christ's second coming and Christ will cease to intercede for man once probation closes (see Rev 15:7-8)


Man must "sin not" as John says in 1John 2:1 when the high priestly role of Christ as Mediator in the sanctuary in heaven ends.

(4)Man forms character when "by the Spirit he puts to death the deeds of the flesh" Rom 8:13-16. This is the work that is done via the new creation - new nature -- new heart in cooperation with the Holy Spirit.

It is no longer I who live but CHRIST who lives in me and the life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God Gal 2:20.

(5)The year day principle used by almost every evangelical and protestant denomination working with the 490 day 70 week prophecy of Dan 9 -- is also used by SDAs not only in Dan 9 but also in Dan 8 and Dan 7.


These are all good Bible-based doctrines and could probably each be their own thread.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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tall73

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I see two main objections to the view and a number of smaller objections.

Here is something I wrote up on one of my objections. The simple version is that Jesus fulfilled the Day of Atonement entry and presentation of the sacrifice back at His ascension.

http://ankite.homestead.com/files/Hebews9.pdf
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Do you mind if I "borrow" it??
It depends entirely on what you plan to do with it. Care to share your intentions with us?

(1) Christ's judgment precedes His second coming
In Daniel 7:22, judgment is simultaneous with the coming of the Ancient of Days and with the saints taking possession of the kingdom.

In 2 Corinthians 5:8, judgment is connected with being “at home with the Lord.”

In Revelation 22, Christ’s reward is with Him when He comes. It is presented as being simultaneous with His coming. Note the entire setting of Revelation 22. It doesn’t precede His coming.

So far, what we have seen is that the judgment takes place at Christ’s second coming. We see no Biblical evidence that it precedes Christ’s second coming.

(2) Future Justification will one day hinge upon what we have done (the good fruit of the good tree) as Christ states in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord lord ... but he who DOES...".
What is the kingdom of Heaven? Please conduct a search of every reference to this phrase. The kingdom of Heaven is not solely something we wait for.

Rom 2:13-16 "Not the hearers of the Law are Just before God but the doers of the Law WILL BE justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge"
Yes, Romans 2 relates to men passing judgment on one another, and God’s judgment against those who do. It does not indicate that future justification will hinge on what we have done. Rather, Scripture teaches the following:
“He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” Titus 3:5.

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears our word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24

“All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.” Galatians 3:10-14

“But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:21-26

“If a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.” Galatians 3

“Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.” Romans 10:1-4

“For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.” Rom. 7:5-6

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:16-18

“But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Ephesians 2:4-9

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” Romans 5:1-11.
(3) Man's probation closes prior to Christ's second coming and Christ will cease to intercede for man once probation closes
Note that Romans 15:7-8 says nothing about man’s probation closing or about Christ interceding for man.

Further, 1 John 2:1 does not say that man will be able to "sin not" prior to Christ’s second coming.

Not only are these SDA teachings not based on Scripture, they directly contradict Scripture. Christ’s final parting words before He left this world to return to His Father were as follows: “Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world” (Matt. 28:20). Consider also the following: “I will not leave you comfortless” (John 14:18). “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee” (Hebrews 13:5). “Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He ALWAYS lives to intercede for them” (Hebrews 7:25).

When it comes to the SDA position regarding the close of probation, a man can choose to agree with Scripture or with the denomination, but it is impossible to reconcile the two.

(4)Man forms character when "by the Spirit he puts to death the deeds of the flesh" Rom 8:13-16.
No. This is the Spirit forming the character. In contrast, the SDA denomination teaches that it is left with man to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement.

This is the work that is done via the new creation - new nature -- new heart in cooperation with the Holy Spirit.
Please provide the passage that confirms that sanctification results from man cooperating with the Spirit.

It is no longer I who live but CHRIST who lives in me and the life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God Gal 2:20.
Exactly. In contrast, the SDA denomination teaches that, although God gives the talents, the powers of the mind, we form the character; that it is formed by hard stern battles with self; that conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies; that we will have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain. This is hardly a reliance on Christ living in me. This is a reliance on that which I can do myself.

(5)The year day principle used by almost every evangelical and protestant denomination working with the 490 day 70 week prophecy of Dan 9 -- is also used by SDAs not only in Dan 9 but also in Dan 8 and Dan 7.
This is not, in fact, true. Please conduct further research regarding the way in which non-SDA theologians view the year-day principle. Although there are some who accept it, the vast majority reject it as an unsound method of understanding prophetic books of the Bible.

Unfortunately, there still is no Biblical evidence of the basic tenets of the investigative judgment.

BFA
 
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Adventtruth

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Hey guys,
So concerning 1844 and the investigative judgment, specifically what do you find unbiblical about it?

I find the teachings of 1844 and IJ unbiblical because

(1)the book of Hebrews tells us that Christ fulfilled what the old covenant ritual was teaching, througj the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ.

(2)The book of Colossians tell us that believers are dead to sins daming power, and to law through the body of Christ. The IJ makes Col 3:3 and Col 2:13 unbelievable.

(3) The teaching of the IJ infers the Apostile Paul and all NT saints where in limbo until their names come up in 1844 when the judgment of the dead is complete, thus contradicting the words of Paul and Christ Himself .


(Joh 5:24)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Also, if the IJ is false, exactly what DID happen in 1844? Or do you believe that time prophecy to be falsely interpreted from the beginning?

Nothing happened.

AT:)
 
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BobRyan

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I see two main objections to the view and a number of smaller objections.

Here is a 19 page treatment of one of my objections. The simple version is that Jesus fulfilled the Day of Atonement entry and presentation of the sacrifice back at His ascension.

http://ankite.homestead.com/files/Hebews9.pdf


Well clearly we differ on how long the Holy Place ministry in the heavenly sanctuary lasted vs when the Most Holy Place ministry started.

I doubt that we diiffer on the innauguration event for the heavenly sanctuary at the ascension of Christ - but just how the Holy Place ministry transpired and when the transition between the two took place appears to be a point of difference.

The ministry of Christ certainly gives us greater insight into the Investigative (from books) judgment seen in Dan 7 - but it is not necessary to get the "basics" of the pre-advent "from-books" judgment doctrine of Dan 7.


in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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<< Bob said; Do you mind if I "borrow" it??>.
It depends entirely on what you plan to do with it. Care to share your intentions with us?


Hey -- I thought I "did" share it -- in that re-formatted edited post using your list as the framework.;)


Bob said
(1) Christ's judgment precedes His second coming (Dan 7:22 and Rev 22 "My reward is with me"


BFA

In Daniel 7:22, judgment is simultaneous with the coming of the Ancient of Days and with the saints taking possession of the kingdom.


Well not in Dan 7.

In Dan 7:9 The "Ancient of Days takes His seat"
In Dan 7:10 the "Court sat" (myriads and myriads)
In Dan 7:10 the "books are opened"

In Dan 7:7-11, 21 the little horn "wages war with the saints" for a period of 1260 years vs 25-26 UNTIL the court sits AND a decision is rendered.

In Dan Dan 7:22 "UNTIL judgment is passed in favor of the saints"

And in Dan 7:13-14 the Son of Man comes to the Ancient of Days to receive his kingdom - once the decision is rendered

This demonstrates that the judgment is "from books" that it is "pre-advent" and that it happens AFTER the split of pagan Rome and before the 2nd coming AND that the saints are the subject of that judgment.

Hint "We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" as Paul argues for a judgment that he says is "still future" in Romans 2:13-16.

In Rev 14 the first angel tells us that the judgment takes place while both good and evil people are on earth and before the Rev 19 second coming event.

in Christ,

Bob.
 
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BobRyan

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.

In 2 Corinthians 5:8, judgment is connected with being “at home with the Lord.”

Actually 2Cor 5:8-10 has the judgment connected with "The reward for deeds done in the body whether they be GOOD or BAD".

In Romans 6 Paul has already stated that the "reward" for bad deeds is the 2nd death.

In Romans 2 Paul further clarifies the point between those who "persevere in doing good deeds" Rom 2:7 and those who do not.

There is nothing in this doctrine from Paul about "those who did bad deeds getting less candy in heaven" as it were. Not when we read his chapter-long discussion of that issue in Romans 2.

So far, what we have seen is that the judgment takes place at Christ’s second coming.


Nope. In Dan 7 it takes place and once finished THEN the persecution of the saints end.

In Rev 14 it takes place WHILE both the wicked and the righteous are on earth and BEFORE the messages of the 2nd and 3rd angel are given.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Yes, Romans 2 relates to men passing judgment on one another, and God&#8217;s judgment against those who do.

No it presents a contrast between those who choose to "persevere in doing good deeds" Rom 2:7 vs those who "are selfishly ambitious and refuse to obey the truth" 2:8

The entire argument is "God is not partial" in vs 10

It does not indicate that future justification will hinge on what we have done


The whole point is as seen in vs 13 "it is not the HEARERS that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified" (pointing to future justification) "On the day when according to my Gospel God will judge" vs 16 (A reference to justification FUTURE)


There is the minor point that the Jews who condemn gentiles are missing the "impartial nature" of this judgment of works -- where only "doing" matters and claiming a magic-formula or claming-favored-status due to some supposed bias on God's part in your favor -- is out.

(BTW - Romans 2 deals with "Justification FUTURE" which is in fact the Dan 7 topic as well as the Matt 7 topic of Christ. By contrast Romans 5 deals with "justification PAST" )

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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. Rather, Scripture teaches the following:

&#8220;He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.&#8221; Titus 3:5.

&#8220;I tell you the truth, whoever hears our word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.&#8221; John 5:24
[/quote]

That is a good reference for "justification past" as Paul describes it in Romans 5:1 "having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE pass with God".

The argument for the IJ is NOT "you are not saved until the IJ takes place" -- notice that in the Lev 16 model -- the people had already received forgiveness back when they sinned (Lev 4 and 5) at various points during the year.

We are talking about future judgment in Romans 2 and Dan 7 where the Matt 7 principle of Christ "By their fruits you shall know them... not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father" is being applied with the Dan 7 result "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

&#8220;All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.&#8221; Galatians 3:10-14

Indeed. This is the perspective of the lost person who comes to Christ and sees the law of God as that which condemns them.

But the persepective Paul is arguing in Rom 2:7 (and the one james argues in James 2 and the one that Christ argues in Matt 7 and the one we see being explained in Dan 7) is the issue of "perseverance of the saints". Not the issue of the lost person coming to Christ and seeking salvation -- but the issue of a saint that is either "persevering in doing good works" Rom 2:7 or the case of a lost person who is NOT seeking salvation -- who is still lost in sin and merely supposes themselves to be "a good tree" as Christ argues it in Matt 7.


&#8220;For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. &#8221; Rom. 7:5-6


Again another good reference to the LOST state of man as he views the Law of God. The bible writers never argue that the lost are to "persevere in being lost"

By conrast Romans 6 and Romans 8 and Romans 2 show the "perseverance of the saints" those who are saved, who are born again. "By their fruits you shall know them".

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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3) Man's probation closes prior to Christ's second coming and Christ will cease to intercede for man once probation closes (see Rev 15:7-8)


Man must "sin not" as John says in 1John 2:1 when the high priestly role of Christ as Mediator in the sanctuary in heaven ends.



Note that Romans 15:7-8 says nothing about man’s probation closing or about Christ interceding for man.


You are probably right about Romans 15. I was talking about Revelation 15 and the shutting down of the heavenly sanctuary.

Further, 1 John 2:1 does not say that man will be able to "sin not" prior to Christ’s second coming.

1. He says "these things I write to you that you sin not"... pretty hard to ignore.

2. Paul writes a similar argument in Romans 6.

3. In 1John 2:1 John argues that IF WE do sin we receive forgiveness BECAUSE "we HAVE an Advocate with the Father". Jesus is the "one mediator between God and Man" according to Paul in 1Tim 2:5. He as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary "ever liveth to make intercession for us" Heb 7:25 -- in the heavenly sancuary "As a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle which the Lord pitched and not man" Heb 8:2.

Hence the significance of that Rev 15:7-8 statement showing that as long as Christ is interceeding between God and man - the 7 last plagues of Rev 16 could not be poured out.

BFA
Not only are these SDA teachings not based on Scripture, they directly contradict Scripture. Christ’s final parting words before He left this world to return to His Father were as follows: “Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world” (Matt. 28:20). Consider also the following: “I will not leave you comfortless” (John 14:18). “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee” (Hebrews 13:5).


The Rev 15 argument is not that "Christ leaves us" it is not that "we are without the comforter" -- rather it is that the 1John 2:2 "Advocate" role has ended.

It is only BECAUSE He is able to "save completely" that that Advocate role can even end.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Bob said
(4)Man forms character when "by the Spirit he puts to death the deeds of the flesh" Rom 8:13-16. This is the work that is done via the new creation - new nature -- new heart in cooperation with the Holy Spirit.

It is no longer I who live but CHRIST who lives in me and the life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God Gal 2:20.

Sort of the Phil 2 "work out your own salvation" model that applies only to the saved saint as those who "persevere in doing good deeds" Rom 2:7.

Paul also speaks of it as "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified"

BFA

No. This is the Spirit forming the character.


As was noted in Gal 2 and Romans 8 this is the saved saint walking in the Spirit -- choosing to "buffet my body and make it my slave" as Paul argues in 1Cor 9.

this is the "pressing on" of Phil 3:10-12 in order that I may "attain to the resurrection" vs 11

When Paul speaks of this to Timothy he says "take pains with these things - be absorbed in them...Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching for IN THIS WAY you will insure..." 1Tim 4:15-16 and of course we all know how that text ends.

Please provide the passage that confirms that sanctification results from man cooperating with the Spirit.
Romans 8 already given. "IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh THEN are you the sons of God"


Exactly. In contrast, the SDA denomination teaches that, although God gives the talents, the powers of the mind, we form the character; that it is formed by hard stern battles with self; that conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies; that we will have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain. This is hardly a reliance on Christ living in me. This is a reliance on that which I can do myself.


Interesting spin and paraphrase. I prefer to stick with the actual text of the 28FB when referencing a doctrinal position of Adventists. Then sticking with the bible for either supporting or refuting that position so that the whole thing is as objective as possible.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Well not in Dan 7.
In Dan 7:9 The "Ancient of Days takes His seat"
In Dan 7:10 the "Court sat" (myriads and myriads)
In Dan 7:10 the "books are opened"

In Dan 7:7-11, 21 the little horn "wages war with the saints" for a period of 1260 years vs 25-26 UNTIL the court sits AND a decision is rendered.

In Dan Dan 7:22 "UNTIL judgment is passed in favor of the saints"

And in Dan 7:13-14 the Son of Man comes to the Ancient of Days to receive his kingdom - once the decision is rendered

This demonstrates that the judgment is "from books" that it is "pre-advent" and that it happens AFTER the split of pagan Rome and before the 2nd coming AND that the saints are the subject of that judgment.

Hint "We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" as Paul argues for a judgment that he says is "still future" in Romans 2:13-16.

In Rev 14 the first angel tells us that the judgment takes place while both good and evil people are on earth and before the Rev 19 second coming event.

in Christ,

Bob.
19"Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,
20and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.
21"I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
Which judgment does this passage describe?

According to this passage, does judgment precede the coming of the Ancient of Days and does judgment precede the saints taking possession of the kingdom?

BFA
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Interesting spin and paraphrase.
No spin and no paraphrase. In fact, it's almost a direct quote:
"But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain. Let no one say, we cannot remedy our defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome&#8221; (Christ&#8217;s Object Lessons, p. 331).
BFA
 
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Byfaithalone1

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He says "these things I write to you that you sin not"... pretty hard to ignore.
He also writes that there there is no one righteous, not even one; that the whole world is a prisoner of sin; and that the corruptible does not put on incorruption until the trump of God. Clearly, he understands the chronology.


The Rev 15 argument is not that "Christ leaves us" it is not that "we are without the comforter" -- rather it is that the 1John 2:2 "Advocate" role has ended.
It really is quite simple. The SDA denomination teaches that Christ will cease to intercede on behalf of men. Christ Himself promised that He would never cease to intercede for us. Whom should we believe?



BFA
 
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Byfaithalone1

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That is a good reference for "justification past" as Paul describes it in Romans 5:1 "having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE pass with God".

The argument for the IJ is NOT "you are not saved until the IJ takes place" -- notice that in the Lev 16 model -- the people had already received forgiveness back when they sinned (Lev 4 and 5) at various points during the year.

We are talking about future judgment in Romans 2 and Dan 7 where the Matt 7 principle of Christ "By their fruits you shall know them... not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father" is being applied with the Dan 7 result "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

Let's clarify your statements with a few simple questions.
(1) TODAY, am I justified by grace?

(2) TODAY, am I justified by faith?

(3) TODAY, am I justified by works?

(4) AT THE CLOSE OF MY PROBATION, am I justified by grace?

(5) AT THE CLOSE OF MY PROBATION, am I justified by faith?

(6) AT THE CLOSE OF MY PROBATION, am I justified by works?
Thanks in advance for answering these questions.

BFA
 
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