Community group proposes oversight board with power to remove police superintendent and set policy

[faroukfarouk]

Isn't Illinois undergoing a fall in population?

 

[RDKirk]

If I'm reading the article correctly, the members of the district councils who elect the oversight board.

Yeah, pretty much how the Soviet Union worked.

And the Soviet Union collapsed under that weight.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's kinda funny - the author talked about the commission having the authority to set policy right at the beginning of the article. You said you stopped reading there, and I somehow skipped right over it.



Audio post production / sound design. These days it's predominantly games, but there's also theater, live music / HOW. I'm trying to get into developing and selling sound fx libraries, but that's turning into more of a pain in the butt than I expected. But anyways...


FWIW, I don't see this as a foolproof plan but I also don't see it as necessarily terrible either. I suspect that its success will come down to how well it's executed.

Regarding the idea of outside oversight - yes, it's easy for people outside an industry to play armchair quarterback. Yes, that's a danger here. LEO has to deal with it. Game devs have to deal with it. Audio guys (which is more how I identify myself) have to deal with it. And yes, many times, that outside judgment is ill-advised and unproductive.

Ok...

However...

It's also easy for people/organizations - particularly ones as insular/siloed as law enforcement (and game devs and audio guys... especially audio guys) to get tunnel vision, caring only about the things that immediately affect them, and losing perspective of the big picture and how they fit into it. This is a constant struggle in creative industries, because your success is directly tied to how effectively you can communicate something to your audience. It doesn't matter how much you love a certain feature or piece of artwork or piece of music, if it doesn't read to the audience in a certain way, it has to go.

I suspect law enforcement (or most other jobs, for that matter) doesn't have that sort of feedback mechanism pushing them to maintain a "big picture" perspective that serves the audience.

Well...I wouldn't say it doesn't have that mechanism, it's just not a direct line. It filters down from those authorities like a mayor who answer directly to the public...and turns into a rather simple and direct message (You need to focus your attention on this or that)...

You also need to consider how you get to respond to some of that outside criticism...If it's blatantly wrong, you can simply explain to that person why they're blatantly wrong. You get to squash an obviously wrong suggestion and I would like to imagine that afterwards, you gain credibility as a professional who knows what they're doing.

For a cop, it doesn't work that way...because the suggestions he's getting are emotional ones (Why couldn't you just shoot him in the leg? You didn't need to kill him). So even if he calmly and politely explains why he can't have his officers shoot people in the legs, next month another idiot will be asking why they didn't just shoot that guy in the leg.

Any organization that deals with that sort of thing regularly will inevitably come to the conclusion that the people they serve aren't all that bright, only care about emotional concerns, and really shouldn't be making decisions on policing.

That one point aside...yeah, I think they do get tunnel vision, they do become insular, and I'd even add that because of those things...they're reactionary, instead of proactive.

After a while, you wind up thinking you're still serving the big picture, when in reality, you're mostly advocating for yourself.

I'm sure you mean something by this...but I'm not sure what lol.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Ok...

Well...I wouldn't say it doesn't have that mechanism, it's just not a direct line. It filters down from those authorities like a mayor who answer directly to the public...and turns into a rather simple and direct message (You need to focus your attention on this or that)...

Which I would argue isn't really the same thing. Because while the mayor may be listening to the people, (s)he may also be looking out for their own political considerations. There are ways to placate the people and protect votes without actually fixing anything.

You also need to consider how you get to respond to some of that outside criticism...If it's blatantly wrong, you can simply explain to that person why they're blatantly wrong. You get to squash an obviously wrong suggestion and I would like to imagine that afterwards, you gain credibility as a pr professional who knows what they're doing.

For a cop, it doesn't work that way...because the suggestions he's getting are emotional ones (Why couldn't you just shoot him in the leg? You didn't need to kill him). So even if he calmly and politely explains why he can't have his officers shoot people in the legs, next month another idiot will be asking why they didn't just shoot that guy in the leg.

Any organization that deals with that sort of thing regularly will inevitably come to the conclusion that the people they serve aren't all that bright, only care about emotional concerns, and really shouldn't be making decisions on policing.

That one point aside...yeah, I think they do get tunnel vision, they do become insular, and I'd even add that because of those things...they're reactionary, instead of proactive.

This is why I said it's probably going to come down to execution. If you put morons on the panel, then yes, you'll wind up with this. But if you pack it with people who know what they're doing, then maybe you won't.

I'm sure you mean something by this...but I'm not sure what lol.

Basically, I'm talking about thinking that what you're focused on is really the most important thing for you to be focusing on. If I'm a sound designer, maybe I'm really hung up on this one cool sound I'm working on. If I'm a game designer, maybe it's a particular gameplay feature. Maybe whatever that thing is represents the pinnacle of achievement within my discipline, and I advocate for it because I think my discipline and my work and my contributions are important to the quality of the end product. But if I'm so focused on my stuff, I can lose sight of how accommodating me and my goals can be detrimental to the project as a whole. Maybe implementing my <thing> takes too much time/money away from other stuff in the schedule/budget. Maybe my thing takes up too much memory. Maybe it isn't fun or it's not consistent with the rest of the player experience.

A comparable situation in law enforcement would be arrest stats (or convictions for prosecutors). Now, arrests and convictions are obviously important for the safety of a community, but they're not the be-all-end-all, and if a PD or a DA gets too hung up on making numbers (whether motivated by their own desires or by pressure from a political administration) they can wind up making things worse by incarcerating too many people and fomenting distrust with the public. At that point, they're not serving justice or the greater good, they're serving their own myopic goals.

 

[Dave-W]

Given the attitude that certain "cultures" are immoral or inferior, the notion that they giving them any sort of power to direct the police is frightening to some.

Indeed.

That is why in the US Constitution the prez is not directly elected by the people, nor were Senators originally. They were selected by the state legislatures.

As US founding father Alexander Hamilton said: "the masses are a$$es."

 

[RDKirk]

This is why I said it's probably going to come down to execution. If you put morons on the panel, then yes, you'll wind up with this. But if you pack it with people who know what they're doing, then maybe you won't.

That kind of panel is not going to get the quality of people being proposed, because such persons have better things to do with their time, their social capital, and their lives than hold judgment over police.

They will get people who have specific political agendas.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Indeed.

That is why in the US Constitution the prez is not directly elected by the people, nor were Senators originally. They were selected by the state legislatures.

As US founding father Alexander Hamilton said: "the masses are a$$es."

Correct. And while everywhere else in Illinois, school board members are elected by the people, in Chicago they are hand picked by the mayor and serve at his behest. Create another layer of bureaucracy in Chicago and all you've done is create another layer of corruption.

 

[Dave-W]

while everywhere else in Illinois, school board members are elected by the people, in Chicago they are hand picked by the mayor and serve at his behest.

And in Baltimore MD, they are picked by the County Executive.

 

[iluvatar5150]

And in Baltimore MD, they are picked by the County Executive.

<pedantic>

Baltimore City doesn't have a county executive. School board members are selected by the mayor and the governor.

BoardDocs® Policy: Table of Contents

https://www.boarddocs.com/mabe/bcps...Board Membership - Appointment FINAL 2016.pdf


</pedantic>

 

[Dave-W]

Baltimore County. (different than the city)

Prince George county (next door) also picks their school board by the country executive.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Which I would argue isn't really the same thing. Because while the mayor may be listening to the people, (s)he may also be looking out for their own political considerations. There are ways to placate the people and protect votes without actually fixing anything.

Which often happens when the people don't understand what they're talking about.

This is why I said it's probably going to come down to execution. If you put morons on the panel, then yes, you'll wind up with this. But if you pack it with people who know what they're doing, then maybe you won't.

Yeah...but isn't this about accountability to the public? Either you've got accountability to the public, or you don't. There's nothing to say these people don't have their own political aspirations either...

Basically, I'm talking about thinking that what you're focused on is really the most important thing for you to be focusing on. If I'm a sound designer, maybe I'm really hung up on this one cool sound I'm working on. If I'm a game designer, maybe it's a particular gameplay feature. Maybe whatever that thing is represents the pinnacle of achievement within my discipline, and I advocate for it because I think my discipline and my work and my contributions are important to the quality of the end product. But if I'm so focused on my stuff, I can lose sight of how accommodating me and my goals can be detrimental to the project as a whole. Maybe implementing my <thing> takes too much time/money away from other stuff in the schedule/budget. Maybe my thing takes up too much memory. Maybe it isn't fun or it's not consistent with the rest of the player experience.

Ok. Arguably though...this is already a consideration for police. For example, they almost never would get a search warrant on a suspected drug user...instead, they go after the dealers. That's why there's different levels to a police department...including those administrators responsible for looking at the big picture.

A comparable situation in law enforcement would be arrest stats (or convictions for prosecutors). Now, arrests and convictions are obviously important for the safety of a community, but they're not the be-all-end-all, and if a PD or a DA gets too hung up on making numbers (whether motivated by their own desires or by pressure from a political administration) they can wind up making things worse by incarcerating too many people and fomenting distrust with the public. At that point, they're not serving justice or the greater good, they're serving their own myopic goals.

Incarcerating too many criminals? If they were incarcerating a lot of innocent people, I could understand how that might be a problem....but I've never heard of it.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Incarcerating too many criminals? If they were incarcerating a lot of innocent people, I could understand how that might be a problem....but I've never heard of it.

Issue A would be cops writing up questionable charges or citations.

Issue B would be them going on fishing expeditions to look for violations and doing more harm than good in the process. Freddie Grey would be a prime example of that. The only thing he was witnessed doing was running away. Maybe they were legally permitted to stop him just because of that, but it's hard to argue that the decision to do so resulted in a net positive.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Issue A would be cops writing up questionable charges or citations.

Issue B would be them going on fishing expeditions to look for violations and doing more harm than good in the process. Freddie Grey would be a prime example of that. The only thing he was witnessed doing was running away. Maybe they were legally permitted to stop him just because of that, but it's hard to argue that the decision to do so resulted in a net positive.

I'll be honest...it's been so long since the Freddie Grey case, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't arrested for "running away"...that's not really a charge unless we're talking about felony evasion.

I'm with you 100% on bogus citations though...they should be fought. I think if everyone were to decide they had enough and everyone fought these things, thery would change. That's work though...and a lot of people won't put in the effort.

Last time I read a statistic on it...75% or so black people agreed the reason of their last stop was valid. While that doesn't mean they agree every stop is valid....It also doesn't make the other 25% invalid.

All it really shows is that the snapshot of traffic stops the survey took indicates most people of color (and I'm bringing them up because it's so often claimed to be unfair against them) agree they were pulled over for valid reasons more often than not.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I'll be honest...it's been so long since the Freddie Grey case, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't arrested for "running away"...that's not really a charge unless we're talking about felony evasion.

Even the official report says it got started when he took off after seeing a couple bike cops.

Death of Freddie Gray - Wikipedia

The worst thing they ever pinned on him was having a pocket knife that may or may not have been illegal, which is a joke because you can get spring assist knives anywhere.

 

[SummerMadness]

Citizens should have the power to fire the police chief if he refuses to serve the community. When police argue that they cannot police without harassing the citizens, that is a sign that the officer does not view citizens as citizens worthy of constitutional protections, rather they are subjects that must be kept to heel. I assume this attitude would change if more of the citizens vulnerable to police overreach were property owners.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Even the official report says it got started when he took off after seeing a couple bike cops.

Death of Freddie Gray - Wikipedia

The worst thing they ever pinned on him was having a pocket knife that may or may not have been illegal, which is a joke because you can get spring assist knives anywhere.

True...but they are illegal in some places. If you think it's a bad law...fine...but you can't fault officers for enforcing the law.

 

[iluvatar5150]

True...but they are illegal in some places. If you think it's a bad law...fine...but you can't fault officers for enforcing the law.

The knife wasn't what initiated the stop. The running was. They only found the knife afterwards.

Anyways, my point was to use this as an example of following the letter of the law but doing more harm than good.