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TKA_TN

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The RCC makes that claim. They say only a validly ordained Priest, through Apostolic Succession, can rightly administer the Eucharist.

The Lutheran Confessions tell us that a rightly called and ordained Pastor can administer the Eucharist and that Jesus is present “in, with, and under” the elements of bread and wine. It’s not done by the Priest, but it’s Jesus’ Words if Institution that make Him present in the Eucharist.

Catholics will say that only Catholics (and EO) only have Jesus in the Eucharist, because that’s their teaching.

Lutherans claim to have Jesus in the elements based on the Confessions.

I’d argue we both have Jesus in the Eucharist, we just get there differently.
 
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FaithT

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The RCC makes that claim. They say only a validly ordained Priest, through Apostolic Succession, can rightly administer the Eucharist.

The Lutheran Confessions tell us that a rightly called and ordained Pastor can administer the Eucharist and that Jesus is present “in, with, and under” the elements of bread and wine. It’s not done by the Priest, but it’s Jesus’ Words if Institution that make Him present in the Eucharist.

Catholics will say that only Catholics (and EO) only have Jesus in the Eucharist, because that’s their teaching.

Lutherans claim to have Jesus in the elements based on the Confessions.

I’d argue we both have Jesus in the Eucharist, we just get there differently.
Thanks! Anyone else?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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The Catholic Church maintains that the Priesthood in most of the Lutheran Church is neither valid nor licit (legal). The Lutheran Churches that are in apostolic succession, they consider their Clergy, valid, but not licit.
The RCC makes that claim. They say only a validly ordained Priest, through Apostolic Succession, can rightly administer the Eucharist.

The Lutheran Confessions tell us that a rightly called and ordained Pastor can administer the Eucharist and that Jesus is present “in, with, and under” the elements of bread and wine. It’s not done by the Priest, but it’s Jesus’ Words if Institution that make Him present in the Eucharist.

Catholics will say that only Catholics (and EO) only have Jesus in the Eucharist, because that’s their teaching.

Lutherans claim to have Jesus in the elements based on the Confessions.

I’d argue we both have Jesus in the Eucharist, we just get there differently.

While this is the correct answer, the Catholic Church will not admit such.

One might say that Lutherans that do not have "Apostolic Succession" as defined by the Catholic Church have, and continue to ordain in Apostolic Succession "in extremis", through Consistory ordination. You could cite the election of St. Ambrose by the laity as Bishop of Millan. He was consecrated by other Bishops some time after he was "elected" (early example of Congregationalism).

Interesting fact; Missouri Synod does not claim AS, but at the installation of president Harrison, the Bishop of Kenya participated in the laying on of hands. The Bishop of Kenya has AS through, either the Church of Norway or Finland (I don't recall which).

Regardless, our Eucharist is as valid as theirs regardless of what they claim and how many seeds of doubt they try to sew.
 
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FaithT

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The Catholic Church maintains that the Priesthood in most of the Lutheran Church is neither valid nor licit (legal). The Lutheran Churches that are in apostolic succession, they consider their Clergy, valid, but not licit.


While this is the correct answer, the Catholic Church will not admit such.

One might say that Lutherans that do not have "Apostolic Succession" as defined by the Catholic Church have, and continue to ordain in Apostolic Succession "in extremis", through Consistory ordination. You could cite the election of St. Ambrose by the laity as Bishop of Millan. He was consecrated by other Bishops some time after he was "elected" (early example of Congregationalism).

Interesting fact; Missouri Synod does not claim AS, but at the installation of president Harrison, the Bishop of Kenya participated in the laying on of hands. The Bishop of Kenya has AS through, either the Church of Norway or Finland (I don't recall which).

Regardless, our Eucharist is as valid as theirs regardless of what they claim and how many seeds of doubt they try to sew.
Is there Scripture I can use that supports your last sentence?
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Is there Scripture I can use that supports your last sentence?
It is not what is in Scripture that supports this beyond the command of Jesus Christ to do it, and do it often, the assurance that it forgives sin. What does support our position this the complete absence of, or indication of Apostolic Succession as defined by Rome.
The Small Catechism distills and explains Scripture very simply. Article VI, The Sacrament of the Altar:

VI. The Sacrament of the Altar

As the head of the family should teach it in a simple way to his household.

What is the Sacrament of the Altar?

It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, under the bread and wine, for us Christians to eat and to drink, instituted by Christ Himself.

Where is this written?

The holy Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and St. Paul, write thus:

Our Lord Jesus Christ, the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread: and when He had given thanks, He brake it, and gave it to His disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is My body, which is given for you. This do in remembrance of Me.

After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Take, drink ye all of it. This cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you for the remission of sins. This do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of Me.

What is the benefit of such eating and drinking?

That is shown us in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins; namely, that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.

How can bodily eating and drinking do such great things?

It is not the eating and drinking, indeed, that does them, but the words which stand here, namely: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins. Which words are, beside the bodily eating and drinking, as the chief thing in the Sacrament; and he that believes these words has what they say and express, namely, the forgiveness of sins.

Who, then, receives such Sacrament worthily?

Fasting and bodily preparation is, indeed, a fine outward training; but he is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins.

But he that does not believe these words, or doubts, is unworthy and unfit; for the words For you require altogether believing hearts.​
For many years, and still in some places, the Catholic Church still withholds the precious blood from it's membership; this is another non-biblical practice just like AS.

Tradition is fine as far as it goes, but where it falls down is when it is at odds with Scripture. When it is something that is man made like AS or follows human logic such that if the bread is Christ's body, the consuming it alone will give one both His body and His blood, what ever reasons are given, they do not stand up to Scripture.

In the CC, Tradition often trumps Scripture; in Lutheranism, Tradition must pass the test of Scripture: if it is neither conflicts with Scripture, nor is prohibited by Scripture, there is nothing wrong with retaining many of our traditions. If it is at odds with Scripture, or prohibited by Scripture; out it goes. This traditions which have been retained are one of the reasons Lutheranism often appears to the outsider to be as "Catholic" or more "Catholic" than the Catholic Church. I hope this helps.

Mark
 
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FaithT

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It is not what is in Scripture that supports this beyond the command of Jesus Christ to do it, and do it often, the assurance that it forgives sin. What does support our position this the complete absence of, or indication of Apostolic Succession as defined by Rome.
The Small Catechism distills and explains Scripture very simply. Article VI, The Sacrament of the Altar:

VI. The Sacrament of the Altar

As the head of the family should teach it in a simple way to his household.

What is the Sacrament of the Altar?

It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, under the bread and wine, for us Christians to eat and to drink, instituted by Christ Himself.

Where is this written?

The holy Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and St. Paul, write thus:

Our Lord Jesus Christ, the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread: and when He had given thanks, He brake it, and gave it to His disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is My body, which is given for you. This do in remembrance of Me.

After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Take, drink ye all of it. This cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you for the remission of sins. This do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of Me.

What is the benefit of such eating and drinking?

That is shown us in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins; namely, that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.

How can bodily eating and drinking do such great things?

It is not the eating and drinking, indeed, that does them, but the words which stand here, namely: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins. Which words are, beside the bodily eating and drinking, as the chief thing in the Sacrament; and he that believes these words has what they say and express, namely, the forgiveness of sins.

Who, then, receives such Sacrament worthily?

Fasting and bodily preparation is, indeed, a fine outward training; but he is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins.

But he that does not believe these words, or doubts, is unworthy and unfit; for the words For you require altogether believing hearts.​
For many years, and still in some places, the Catholic Church still withholds the precious blood from it's membership; this is another non-biblical practice just like AS.

Tradition is fine as far as it goes, but where it falls down is when it is at odds with Scripture. When it is something that is man made like AS or follows human logic such that if the bread is Christ's body, the consuming it alone will give one both His body and His blood, what ever reasons are given, they do not stand up to Scripture.

In the CC, Tradition often trumps Scripture; in Lutheranism, Tradition must pass the test of Scripture: if it is neither conflicts with Scripture, nor is prohibited by Scripture, there is nothing wrong with retaining many of our traditions. If it is at odds with Scripture, or prohibited by Scripture; out it goes. This traditions which have been retained are one of the reasons Lutheranism often appears to the outsider to be as "Catholic" or more "Catholic" than the Catholic Church. I hope this helps.

Mark
I don’t think any of that is going to sway a Catholic to understanding. I think they may say that it’s impossible for a mere man without AS to confect the Eucharist.
And quite frankly, since I’m a new Lutheran who’s still learning about this myself, I don’t know what to say when they tell me their POV. I’ve even been told that I’m a Catholic and always will be Catholic.
 
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tampasteve

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I don’t think any of that is going to sway a Catholic to understanding. I think they may say that it’s impossible for a mere man without AS to confect the Eucharist.
Coming from a Catholic background, I agree. One is not going to sway a Catholic that is a staunch believer to the Lutheran point of view so easily. To me it happened because I started questioning other aspects of the RCC, and that led to accepting the Lutheran view eventually. Essentially once I questioned other Doctrines, the Doctrine on the Eucharist followed.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Coming from a Catholic background, I agree. One is not going to sway a Catholic that is a staunch believer to the Lutheran point of view so easily. To me it happened because I started questioning other aspects of the RCC, and that led to accepting the Lutheran view eventually. Essentially once I questioned other Doctrines, the Doctrine on the Eucharist followed.
I don’t think any of that is going to sway a Catholic to understanding. I think they may say that it’s impossible for a mere man without AS to confect the Eucharist.
And quite frankly, since I’m a new Lutheran who’s still learning about this myself, I don’t know what to say when they tell me their POV. I’ve even been told that I’m a Catholic and always will be Catholic.

In many ways I envy people like you two. I grew up as a cradle Lutheran and have been immersed in our traditions, theology and dogmatics all of my life. Your experience must be a bit more like that of the first Lutherans; discovering the Bible in a new, but basic light. Today, much of Lutheranism are struggling to retain and restore many of the traditions and practices of our Church that were gradually lost due to the influences of American Evangelical Protestantism.

Apart from AS, which has virtually no support in Scripture, the Eucharist, Baptism and Confession practices and doctrines are very close. Some of the Dogmas associated with these sacraments, not so much.

Issues such as Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, the invocation of Saints, the veneration of relics (questionable and otherwise), merits and indulgences.

Papal infallibility and supremacy are another story; both of which, the Eastern Orthodox are on the same page. The EO has it's Patriarchs, we have our Synodical Presidents and Bishops, The Catholic Church has it's Patriarch, the Pope.

Rome denies AS to the Anglicans and the ELCA/ELCIC, but accepts that of the Scandinavian and some Eastern European State Churches. It seems it is a standard, not equally applied.

Like the first Catholic converts; Martin Luther and the other reformers; maybe we should not be so concerned about what others who's hearts have been hardened to God's infallible word, and be more committed to growing in His truth and grace. The Augsburg Confession was intended to be a conciliatory document, but as we know, the ears of the Catholic Princes were closed, just as those of many Catholics today are.

Like St. John the Baptist, Luther, and lets not forget our Lord Jesus, we often find ourselves being "a voice calling in the wilderness". Be mindful that we are called as Christians to proclaim the faith, but we can not bring about conversion; that is the exclusive job of the Holy Spirit.

God bless you both as you grow in the faith.
 
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FaithT

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In many ways I envy people like you two. I grew up as a cradle Lutheran and have been immersed in our traditions, theology and dogmatics all of my life. Your experience must be a bit more like that of the first Lutherans; discovering the Bible in a new, but basic light. Today, much of Lutheranism are struggling to retain and restore many of the traditions and practices of our Church that were gradually lost due to the influences of American Evangelical Protestantism.

Apart from AS, which has virtually no support in Scripture, the Eucharist, Baptism and Confession practices and doctrines are very close. Some of the Dogmas associated with these sacraments, not so much.

Issues such as Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, the invocation of Saints, the veneration of relics (questionable and otherwise), merits and indulgences.

Papal infallibility and supremacy are another story; both of which, the Eastern Orthodox are on the same page. The EO has it's Patriarchs, we have our Synodical Presidents and Bishops, The Catholic Church has it's Patriarch, the Pope.

Rome denies AS to the Anglicans and the ELCA/ELCIC, but accepts that of the Scandinavian and some Eastern European State Churches. It seems it is a standard, not equally applied.

Like the first Catholic converts; Martin Luther and the other reformers; maybe we should not be so concerned about what others who's hearts have been hardened to God's infallible word, and be more committed to growing in His truth and grace. The Augsburg Confession was intended to be a conciliatory document, but as we know, the ears of the Catholic Princes were closed, just as those of many Catholics today are.

Like St. John the Baptist, Luther, and lets not forget our Lord Jesus, we often find ourselves being "a voice calling in the wilderness". Be mindful that we are called as Christians to proclaim the faith, but we can not bring about conversion; that is the exclusive job of the Holy Spirit.

God bless you both as you grow in the faith.
It’s not that, so much as a lack of knowledge on my part to explain it.....and then they sew seeds of doubt in me about my new faith.
 
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tampasteve

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It’s not that, so much as a lack of knowledge on my part to explain it.....and then they sew seeds of doubt in me about my new faith.
I would let them know that Lutherans and Catholics are not as far apart as they probably think. The Catholic Church and Lutherans (not LCMS, but none the less the theology in this case is solid for LCMS too, I believe) have agreed on several points documented in the agreement Declaration on the Way:
  • Lutherans and Catholics agree in esteeming highly the spiritual benefits of union with the risen Christ given to them as they receive his body and blood in Holy Communion.
  • Lutherans and Catholics agree that tin the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, Jesus Christ himself is present: He is truly, substantially, as a person, and he is present in his entirety, as Son of God and a human being.
  • Both traditional Catholic and traditional Lutheran approaches, then, different as they are in expression, affirm Christ;s real, substantial presence in the sacrament. In the faith of both churches, when one received the Eucharistic elements or species, one truly receives the body and blood of Christ in a sacramental way, and so comes into communion with Christ, in order to be on pilgrimage with him.
  • The ecumenical discussion has shown that these two positions must no longer be regarded as opposed in a way that leads to separation.
The document also allows for Lutherans to partake of communion in "grave and pressing needs":

Already local Catholic bishops, given the principles stated in 129-21 of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity's Directory for the Application of the Principles and Norms for Ecumenism, can develop their considerations of "grave and pressing need" to receive the Eucharist. This should be done in light of (a) the full possibilities of the principles stated in the Directory and (b) the spiritual good of Lutherans well-disposed to receive the Eucharist, especially for those in Catholic-Lutheran marriages who attend church regularly, those who make retreats in Catholic retread houses and similar venues, those gathered for ecumenical meetings, and so forth.

In my own life experience my Grandfather (a Lutheran) was given last rights and communion by a Catholic priest when he was in the hospital before he died. The priest knew he was Lutheran and not Catholic.
 
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tampasteve

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Rome denies AS to the Anglicans and the ELCA/ELCIC, but accepts that of the Scandinavian and some Eastern European State Churches. It seems it is a standard, not equally applied.
I always found this odd as well. I have never really seen a good answer on why they think it is not valid.
Like the first Catholic converts; Martin Luther and the other reformers; maybe we should not be so concerned about what others who's hearts have been hardened to God's infallible word, and be more committed to growing in His truth and grace. The Augsburg Confession was intended to be a conciliatory document, but as we know, the ears of the Catholic Princes were closed, just as those of many Catholics today are.

Like St. John the Baptist, Luther, and lets not forget our Lord Jesus, we often find ourselves being "a voice calling in the wilderness". Be mindful that we are called as Christians to proclaim the faith, but we can not bring about conversion; that is the exclusive job of the Holy Spirit.
Wonderfully written :)
God bless you both as you grow in the faith.
and to you on your faith pilgrimage as well.
 
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FaithT

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It’s not that, so much as a lack of knowledge on my part to explain it.....and then they sew seeds of doubt in me about my new faith.

I guess the real problem is that when a Catholic says something about Catholicism vs Lutheranism, it still makes me wonder just how a pastor without the elaborate ordination and AS can confect the Eucharist.
That,plus my church is very contemporary, not at all like a Mass. I’ve only seen my pastor wear his collar, briefly, then he removed it.
I’m not complaining....the contemporary form it follows is what attracted me. But i just wonder how the pastors can turn the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus without the fancy ordination and AS.
 
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tampasteve

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I guess the real problem is that when a Catholic says something about Catholicism vs Lutheranism, it still makes me wonder just how a pastor without the elaborate ordination and AS can confect the Eucharist.
Let us start at in both traditions it is the Holy Spirit, working through the pastor or priest, that effects the change to the matter (bread and wine). Being that as it is, in the Catholic Tradition it is the Bishop that confers the succession to enable the priest by laying on of hands. In the Lutheran Tradition we also lay hands for ordination, but in the LCMS lay people can (but it is not advised) effect the change so long as they are commissioned by the community, the "church" to do so. In both cases the "Church" is conferring authority to the person, it is a understanding of how that authority is passed. I would posit that if it is the Holy Spirit effecting the change, through the person with authority, then a succession from St. Peter is not necessary, even if it would be preferred (assuming AS is a thing).

I think I got that right......any LCMS please correct me if I am understanding it incorrectly.

That,plus my church is very contemporary, not at all like a Mass. I’ve only seen my pastor wear his collar, briefly, then he removed it.
I’m not complaining....the contemporary form it follows is what attracted me. But i just wonder how the pastors can turn the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus without the fancy ordination and AS.
Even in the RCC the vestments don't affect the validity of the Eucharist, it is just tradition (small T) that can change based on place and time, even if it has been standardized more or less. I like a high church, or at least a middle-high service with vestments and the like, but that is really just preference.
 
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FaithT

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Let us start at in both traditions it is the Holy Spirit, working through the pastor or priest, that effects the change to the matter (bread and wine). Being that as it is, in the Catholic Tradition it is the Bishop that confers the succession to enable the priest by laying on of hands. In the Lutheran Tradition we also lay hands for ordination, but in the LCMS lay people can (but it is not advised) effect the change so long as they are commissioned by the community, the "church" to do so. In both cases the "Church" is conferring authority to the person, it is a understanding of how that authority is passed. I would posit that if it is the Holy Spirit effecting the change, through the person with authority, then a succession from St. Peter is not necessary, even if it would be preferred (assuming AS is a thing).

I think I got that right......any LCMS please correct me if I am understanding it incorrectly.


Even in the RCC the vestments don't affect the validity of the Eucharist, it is just tradition (small T) that can change based on place and time, even if it has been standardized more or less. I like a high church, or at least a middle-high service with vestments and the like, but that is really just preference.

Having said all I have in previous posts, I have to add that the Lutheran belief that the Body and Blood along with bread and wine has always made more sense to me than Transubstantiation. Still, it bothers me that my former priest said I can only get Jesus in the Eucharist at the CC.
 
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tampasteve

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Having said all I have in previous posts, I have to add that the Lutheran belief that the Body and Blood along with bread and wine has always made more sense to me than Transubstantiation. Still, it bothers me that my former priest said I can only get Jesus in the Eucharist at the CC.

I would applaud him for keeping his belief in that, but we just don't see it the same way as the Catholics. I understand why, and that is OK if they want to believe it. The whole Catholic system is based on St. Peter being the head and linchpin to the Church. When one sees it in a different way, the whole belief system starts to be questioned.
 
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FaithT

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I would applaud him for keeping his belief in that, but we just don't see it the same way as the Catholics. I understand why, and that is OK if they want to believe it. The whole Catholic system is based on St. Peter being the head and linchpin to the Church. When one sees it in a different way, the whole belief system starts to be questioned.
What made you see it a different way? (sorry if you already told me)
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Let us start at in both traditions it is the Holy Spirit, working through the pastor or priest, that effects the change to the matter (bread and wine). Being that as it is, in the Catholic Tradition it is the Bishop that confers the succession to enable the priest by laying on of hands. In the Lutheran Tradition we also lay hands for ordination, but in the LCMS lay people can (but it is not advised) effect the change so long as they are commissioned by the community, the "church" to do so. In both cases the "Church" is conferring authority to the person, it is a understanding of how that authority is passed. I would posit that if it is the Holy Spirit effecting the change, through the person with authority, then a succession from St. Peter is not necessary, even if it would be preferred (assuming AS is a thing).

I think I got that right......any LCMS please correct me if I am understanding it incorrectly.


Even in the RCC the vestments don't affect the validity of the Eucharist, it is just tradition (small T) that can change based on place and time, even if it has been standardized more or less. I like a high church, or at least a middle-high service with vestments and the like, but that is really just preference.

Steve, I think you nailed it here. As you wrote, in the CC it is as dependent on "who" answers to "who" and "who" they answer to. As such, the CC is stating that, contrary to Scripture, the validitiy of the Eucharist is dependent on sinful human beings; the Christ's command and the Word of God, and the bread and wine are insufficient for the Eucharist.

The Eucharist is not dependent on those who administer it.

Our Confessions state (and I paraphrase), "word and sacrament remain efficacious even when administered by evil men". I believe St. Augustine said that what matters is what is done, not how it was done.

Thanks Steve for triggering that!
 
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What made you see it a different way? (sorry if you already told me)
About St. Peter? Well, I had a general faith crisis in conjunction with a life crisis and questioned all of Christianity briefly. This led me to research the texts, Jewish Tradition, the early church and the development on the Church out of Judaism. I researched for several years, quite in depth. The Tradition of the successors of St. Peter holding as much influence as the RCC wants us to think just does not hold up historically. That said, I do think the Spirit guided the Church and that eventually led to the Reformation and Lutheranism, so that is why I chose this faith tradition (among other reasons).
 
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FaithT

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About St. Peter? Well, I had a general faith crisis in conjunction with a life crisis and questioned all of Christianity briefly. This led me to research the texts, Jewish Tradition, the early church and the development on the Church out of Judaism. I researched for several years, quite in depth. The Tradition of the successors of St. Peter holding as much influence as the RCC wants us to think just does not hold up historically. That said, I do think the Spirit guided the Church and that eventually led to the Reformation and Lutheranism, so that is why I chose this faith tradition (among other reasons).
Thanks!
 
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FaithT

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The RCC makes that claim. They say only a validly ordained Priest, through Apostolic Succession, can rightly administer the Eucharist.

The Lutheran Confessions tell us that a rightly called and ordained Pastor can administer the Eucharist and that Jesus is present “in, with, and under” the elements of bread and wine. It’s not done by the Priest, but it’s Jesus’ Words if Institution that make Him present in the Eucharist.

Catholics will say that only Catholics (and EO) only have Jesus in the Eucharist, because that’s their teaching.

Lutherans claim to have Jesus in the elements based on the Confessions.

I’d argue we both have Jesus in the Eucharist, we just get there differently.

Catholics claim their teachings are from Christ, passed down through Apostolic succession. Where did Luther get his teachings?
 
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