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Discussion in 'Christian Advice' started by Righthander, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. Dropout_Theologian

    Dropout_Theologian Not an ant in God's glorious library. Supporter

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    I would think God happiest with Christians of differing denominations partaking of the Lord's Supper together. In my eyes you have done no wrong, save for a possible (but overlookable) offense to the host church.
     
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  2. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor Supporter

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    I see his concern as well but that is between him and his Church. He should go to his priest and ask, not this forum.
    Correct and who has said that anyone other than God does it? The priest and the whole church prays to God and asks for the Holy Spirit to consecrate the offering and change it into the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    A person lacking faith in the very words of scripture would say this but thankfully we believe.

    It wasn't just a symbol to the Apostles or to those whom they handed the faith down to. I'll trust them over one who doesn't.
     
  3. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    Agreed; wars are most often the result of not respecting the beliefs and practices of others; such is why my confessional Lutheran family ended up in Canada; we were being persecuted and killed for our beliefs by those who would not respect our theology and sought to impose theirs.
     
  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Nope. All the denominations that figure into this episode we have been discussing believe that a person receives the true body and blood of Christ when communing.

    The controversy is almost totally a matter of something else--whether or not the rules of each of the denominations approves of non-members receiving Communion in their churches.
     
  5. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    You really should not talk about what you do not know.

    The Lutheran Mass uses the same format as the Catholic Mass, the same words of institution, the same ordinairies, the same propers. We don't go as far as trying to define it as Transubstantiation, but we do know that Christ's very body and blood become present for us on the Altar; in, with and under the bread and wine. We also teach and believe what the Bible promises us, that it is a means of Grace, and conveys to the recipients the forgiveness of sins; healing of both body and soul. Such is why in many of our congregations you will see us kneeling, our clergy genflecting, the elevation of the host and the Chalice during consecration. There is no symbolism.

    This true presence does not depend on the person administering it, nor the person recieving it; rather it depends only on God's word and the bread and the wine.

    It has zero to do with what we do; rather is about what God does for us.

    Scripture is also clear that those who do not believe eat, and drink to their damnation.
     
  6. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    What was so wrong about it?
     
  7. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    This thread involves an EO, not a Catholic. Here’s a discussion of their view of the real presence: The Orthodox Faith - Volume II - Worship - The Sacraments - Holy Eucharist. That does not mandate a specific theory, and is thus consistent with any position that maintains the real presence. Despite historical Lutheran / Reformed infighting, that includes both of as, as well as Episcopal and some others.
     
  8. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I think this is wrong. Someone has answered for Lutherans. I can’t speak for all Reformed, but the PCUSA service is based on the Anaphora of the Holy Tradition, and thus has an epiclesis. That’s the key element for the Orthodox tradition.

    I've been down this path before. First, the objection is to differences in the theory of what's going on. If that turns out to be consistent, the next objection is to something in the service. If that turns out to be consistent, the objection is that the pastors aren't in the apostolic succession. But there are small Lutheran and Reformed denominations that preserve the succession. In the end, the real objection is that the communion is an act of the Church, and only they are they are the Church, properly speaking, although Catholics now accept that non-Catholics are connected to the Church.

    If you buy into this theory, then accidentally doing something that implies recognition of another group as part of the Church could require repentance. That's the situation the OP is afraid he's in. (I don't think Catholics would take quite the same view. They'd tell you not to do it again. I suspect that's what the OP's priest will say as well.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  9. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    This raised an interesting thought in my mind.
    Breaking of bread in my tradition is a symbolic ceremony to remember Jesus and His sacrifice on the cross.

    Now if I go to a high church which believes the wafer is now Christs body, and the wine is His blood, am I committing a sin by partaking, because to me they are just bread and wine, symbols of Christ.

    I feel like Paul, my conscience and heart define the reality of the celebration, and my participation brings blessing to others by encouraging them to worship Jesus. But to the high church believers I might be desecrating their symbolism by my beliefs and participation.

    For me even the apostolic succession is a bit of a joke, considering the theology and practices of many over the centuries who have been in the church. For me faith matters, and the peoples hearts walking in Christ. God bless you
     
  10. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    That's hard to say, but we know that it is wrong to receive "unworthily." Not to believe that the sacrament is what it actually is could certainly be said to fall into that category.

    About your question here, no, I don't think it's a matter of you desecrating anything by communing.

    By the way also, "High Church" and "Low Church" refer to the amount of ceremonial, etc., not to doctrine. All For example, Anglicans, with very few exceptions, all have the same doctrinal standards with regard to the sacrament of the altar.
     
  11. MarkRohfrietsch

    MarkRohfrietsch Unapologetic Apologist Supporter

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    Yes, what you are talking about is "Receptionism", that is, that ones state of mind plays a part in the substance of the Eucharist. Christ, it the Gospels does not say 'it might be if you think it is'; rather he states emphatically that "this is My body... this is My blood". Our Lutheran confessions clearly state that we can not cooperate in our own grace; since we are promised "forgiveness" in the Sacraments, such is by God's grace alone. It is God's word combined with the physical elements of bread and wine (in the case of Baptism, water) regardless of who is administering it. Again our confessions state, "word and sacrament remain efficacious even when administered by evil men". Again it is not about us or our frame of mind, but it is about what God does for us despite our frame of mind.

    BTW, some Anglicans believe in receptionism, and use it to justify open communion, despite their acceptance of the real presence.
     
  12. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you for sharing, Righthander your present concerns & for the dilemma you find yourself in, having a wife that is not EO as you. You are heirs of the grace of life & one flesh & one body, just as their is ONE BODY of Christ & He is the ever living, ever working, ONLY HEAD of His body.

    If she isn't EO, then she can't partake of the Eucharist or Lord's Supper in the EO, only you can, since it is exclusive, which I don't believe is the Lord Jesus Christ's intent according to Scripture. I think most people missed this in this thread. So HOW are you AND her to partake of the Lord's Supper as one? You have much more to consider here than just participation in the Eucharist.

    But that being said, I don't see where you committed a sin in the eyes of the Lord, provided you both examined yourself first & then partook. But in the eyes of the EO, according to their doctrines & teachings of men there, you have. If you are going to submit yourself to their teaching & authority, then you have voluntarily chosen to follow that churches teaching & need to follow through with their course of correction.

    However, that leaves your wife OUT. She cannot participate ever--in the Lord's Supper in any EO church, since she is not EO. You STILL have a dilemma. The Lord said TO PARTICIPATE OFTEN to ALL His followers. If you do & she can't, that will grieve both your hearts. If she participates elsewhere & you can't as EO, that will again grieve both your hearts & there is division.

    Some choices will need to be made between the two of you.

    I can understand concerning partaking in the Lutheran local assembly as you both did, TOGETHER. I grew up in a Lutheran assembly, was baby baptized & confirmed & presently attend a Lutheran local assembly. BUT...

    In case we might be wondering whether denominations are one of those things that “have always been this way,” I thought it might be interesting to consider what one of the original reformers had to say about the notion of dividing into named groups. In studying the teachings of Martin Luther, one of the things he taught, that is seldom quoted or even discussed is this:

    "I ask that people make NO REFERENCE TO MY NAME; let them call themselves Christians, NOT Lutherans. What is Luther? After all, the teaching is not mine. Neither was I crucified for anyone. St. Paul, in I Cor. 3, would not allow the Christians to call themselves Pauline or Petrine but Christian. How then should I--poor stinking maggot-fodder than I am--come to have people call the children of Christ by my wretched name? Not so, my dear friends; let us ABOLISH ALL PARTY NAMES & CALL OURSELVES CHRISTIANS."

    Martin Luther, “A Sincere Admonition to All Christians to Guard Against Insurrection & Rebellion” (1522), Luther’s Works, Vol. 45, p. 70.

    What happened? Men did it anyway, contrary to Martin Luther himself & look at what evil door it opened up in every direction. 'The error of the Nicolaitans.' The error clear back in the prophet Samuel's days. The error clear back in the wilderness with the Israelites.

    I Samuel 8:6ff But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have REJECTED ME AS THEIR KING.

    8As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking Me & serving other gods, so they are doing TO YOU. 9Now listen to them; but WARN THEM SOLEMNLY & let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as HIS RIGHTS...”

    But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. Then we will be LIKE ALL THE OTHER NATIONS, with a king to lead us & to go out before us & fight our battles.”

    The saddest thing of all is that people want to follow people not Christ. They reject Him in the guise of man-made structure & administration. We want a man to represent the body of Christ, not Christ Himself. Christ continues to build HIS CHURCH, OF WHICH HE IS THE TRUE HEAD, NOT a mere man. Are you a spirit-born member of His church, His one body or a man-made structure with many rules & regulations & garb & titles? Sigh. God have mercy on us!

    Rom 12:18 If it can be done, as much as is possible on your part, live in peace with all men.

    I Cor 10:29-33 But if someone tells you, “This food was offered to idols,” then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who told you & for the sake of conscience—I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else’s conscience? If I partake in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks? So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all to the glory of God. Don't become a stumbling block (offensive) to Jews, Greeks or the church of God, just as I try to please everyone in all I do. For I am not seeking my own good, but the good of many, that they may be saved.

    Rom 14:5 One man regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes a special day does so to the Lord; he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God & he who abstains does so to the Lord & gives thanks to God.

    7For none of us lives to himself alone & none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord & if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. For this reason Christ died & returned to life, so that He might be THE LORD of both the dead & the living.

    10Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. It is written: “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.” So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

    Luke 9:46-50 Then an argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the GREATEST. But Jesus, knowing the thoughts of their hearts, had a little child stand beside Him. And He said to them, “Whoever welcomes this little child in My name WELCOMES ME & whoever welcomes Me welcomes the One who sent Me. For whoever is the least among all of you, he is the greatest.”

    49“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in Your name & we tried to STOP HIM, BECAUSE HE DOES NOT ACCOMPANY US.” “DO NOT STOP HIM,” Jesus replied, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

    Matt 18:1-7,10 At that time the disciples came to Jesus & asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. “Truly I tell you,” He said, “UNLESS YOU CHANGE & become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes a little child LIKE THIS IN MY NAME WELCOMES ME.

    6BUT...if anyone causes one of these little ones WHO BELIEVE IN ME TO STUMBLE, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck & to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world for the causes of sin. These stumbling blocks must come, but woe to the man THROUGH WHOM THEY COME! Beware that you don’t look down on any of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels are always in the presence of my heavenly Father.

    Mark 9:33-41 Then they came to Capernaum. While Jesus was in the house, He asked them, “What were you discussing on the way?” But they were silent, for on the way they had been arguing about which of them was the greatest. Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve & said, “If anyone wants to be first, he must be the last of all AND the servant of all.”

    36Then He had a little child stand among them. Taking the child in His arms, He said to them, “Whoever welcomes one of these little children in My name welcomes Me & whoever welcomes Me welcomes not only Me, but the One who sent Me.”

    38John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone else driving out demons in Your name & we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.”

    39“Do not stop him,” Jesus replied. “For no one who performs a miracle in My name can turn around & speak evil of Me. For whoever is NOT against US IS FOR US. Indeed, if anyone gives you even a cup of water because you bear the name of Christ, truly I tell you, he will NEVER lose his reward.

    Mark 5:18-20 As He was getting into the boat, the man who had been possessed by the demons BEGGED TO GO WITH HIM. BUT...

    Jesus would NOT allow him. “Go home to your own people,” He said, “and tell them how much the Lord has done for you & what mercy He has shown you.” So the man went away & began to proclaim throughout the Gadarenes (Decapolis) how much Jesus had done for him. And everyone was AMAZED.

    Luke 8:34-39 When the herdsmen saw what had happened, they ran away & reported it in the city AND OUT IN THE COUNTRY. The people went out to see what had happened & they came to Jesus & found the man from whom the demons had gone out, sitting down at the feet of Jesus, clothed & in his right mind & they became FRIGHTENED.

    36Those who had seen it reported to them how the man who was demon-possessed had been made well. And all the people of the COUNTRY of the Gerasenes AND the surrounding DISTRICT asked Him to leave them, for they were GRIPPED WITH GREAT FEAR.

    And He got into a boat & returned. But the man from whom the demons had gone out was BEGGING HIM THAT HE MIGHT ACCOMPANY HIM. BUT...

    He sent him away, saying, “Return to your house & describe what great things God has done for you.” So he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him.

    When the Lord Jesus Christ, the Head & Savior of the Church, the one flock of the Chief Shepherd, the one congregation, the one body of spiritually born again followers of the Lamb of God, the one body that is the dwelling place of God in the Spirit, all those who are baptized by the Holy Spirit into this one body--

    TAKES THE LORD'S SUPPER AGAIN IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD--(Luke 22:10-20; Matt 26:26-30; Mark 14:22-26; I Cor 11:17-34)

    There will be no denominations, there will be no Orthodox Church, there will be no Roman Catholic church, there will be no Lutheran church, there will be no Baptist church. There will only be people of every tribe & tongue & ethnicity & nation, standing before the Lord, from every little jungle or island tribe of people of different dialects, who ALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD. Those are saved, those are the ones washed in the blood of the Lamb with clean linen garments. They will be the WORTHY ONES able to share in the Supper of the Lamb.

    If Christ does that when His kingdom comes, as all believers sit with Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, then He designed it the same on earth, that all believers would PARTICIPATE in both the wine & the bread, even as Abraham did with Melchizedek.

    Do this AS OFTEN as you drink it, in REMEMBRANCE OF ME. As OFTEN as Christians PARTICIPATE, they proclaim the Lord's death UNTIL HE COMES AGAIN.

    It is NOT unbelievers that are sick & some dying, it is believers, because they (in Corinth as the example) were acting in the flesh not in the Spirit when partaking & not FIRST examining themselves BEFORE partaking.

    For this cause many are weak & sickly AMONG YOU & MANY SLEEP. For if we would judge ourselves, we should NOT be judged.

    The teaching of the Lord as Paul passed it down (I Cor 11:24), was that all believers gathered together in one place--WOULD PARTAKE, after examining themselves & making corrections in their celebration of the Lord's Supper, because what they were doing at that time, was not celebrating the Lord's Supper. (I Cor 11:20)

    The Lord wasn't seeking to be exclusive but inclusive as it was such a special time to share with HIS DISCIPLES, whether then or now.

    I Cor 11:28 So then, you should each examine yourself FIRST AND THEN EAT THE BREAD AND DRINK FROM THE CUP.

    I Corinthians 11:17-19 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. FOR FIRST OF ALL, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be DIVISIONS AMONG YOU & I partly believe it. 19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are 'APPROVED' may be made manifest among you.

    I Cor 1:10-13 I appeal to you, BROTHERS, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree together, so that there may be NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU & that you may be united in mind & conviction. My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are QUARRELS AMONG YOU. 12What I mean is this: Individuals among you are saying, “I follow Paul,” “I follow Apollos,” “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ DIVIDED? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?

    Matt 23:1-15 Then Jesus said to the crowds & to his disciples, 2“The scribes & the Pharisees sit ON MOSES' SEAT, so do & observe whatever they tell you, but not THE WORKS they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear & lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.

    5They do all their deeds to be SEEN by others. For they make their phylacteries broad & their fringes long & they love the place of honor at feasts & the best seats in the synagogues & greetings in the marketplaces & being called RABBI BY OTHERS.

    8But YOU are NOT to be called rabbi, for you have one Teacher AND YOU ARE ALL BROTHERS.

    9And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12Whoever exalts himself will be humbled & whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

    13“But WOE to you, scribes & Pharisees, hypocrites! For you SHUT the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. Woe to you, scribes & Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea & land to make a single proselyte & when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

    Rev 2:6,7, Yet this you {THE church AT Ephesus} have: you hate the WORKS OF THE NICOLAITANS, WHICH I ALSO HATE. He who has an ear, let him hear WHAT THE SPIRIT SAYS TO THE CHURCHES.

    Rev 2:15,16 So also you {THE church AT Pergamum} have some who HOLD TO THE TEACHINGS OF THE NICOLAITANS. Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon & war against them with the sword of My mouth. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

    Nico--'ruler over' and laitans--'laity' or the common believers, THE BROTHERS OR BRETHREN of the one body of Christ wherever they were gathered as THE CHURCH of Jesus Christ, His body. All the apostles said they were slaves of Christ & those bishops/presbyters/overseers/elders (all used interchangeably in Scripture) were servants of Christ & then those that were recognized, qualified & appointed by the church were servants of their brethren. (I Peter 5:1-5)

    Leadership as taught in the NT Scriptures concerning the various local churches is mentioned in the plural not the singular. The only time the word for pastor is used in the singular is in reference to Christ as the 'Chief Shepherd.'

    I Pet 5:1 So I exhort the BISHOPS (ELDERS) among you...

    Titus 1:5 For this reason I left you in Crete, so that you should set in order the things that are lacking & APPOINT BISHOPS (ELDERS) IN EVERY CITY as I commanded you...(not one bishop IN EVERY CITY or an area but BISHOPS, PLURAL.

    Acts 11:30 This they did, sending their gifts to the elders (bishops) with Barnabas & Saul.

    Acts 20:17 Now from Miletus he sent TO EPHESUS & called the ELDERS (BISHOPS) OF THE CHURCH to come to him.

    Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them BISHOPS (ELDERS) IN EVERY CHURCH & had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
     
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    That "some" must be a very small number indeed, considering that there don't seem to be any Anglican church bodies or associations that teach receptionism in defiance of the Anglican formularies such as the Articles of Religion. To the extent that Anglicans generally favor open communion, it has nothing to do with receptionism.
     
  14. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Catechumen

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    I would appreciate if you don't call Holy Tradition "doctrines and teachings of men".
     
  15. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Please enlighten me what SPECIFIC teaching--and it is the teaching the comes from men--that you would call Holy Tradition? Then I can evaluate it as Jesus did as to whether it is Scriptural or not, whether it is holy or not. The Scripture is called holy, the apostles were called holy, the inner room of the tabernacle was called the Holy of Holies; but I don't see in Scripture where tradition is called holy.

    If you can enlighten me on what you you are referring to, then I can address it. Thank you. Since you are a catechumen, you should be able to delineate the teaching of the church as you have been taught it.
     
  16. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Catechumen

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    Scripture is part of Holy Tradition. Nowhere in the Bible it talks that everything has to be in the Bible and when "Scriptures" is referred to is never The Whole New Testament but it usually refers to the Old Testament.
     
  17. charsan

    charsan Charismatic Episcopal Church

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    Exactly, this is one of the worst place to ask
     
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  18. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Catechumen

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    Yeah, just Orthodox bashing.
     
  19. charsan

    charsan Charismatic Episcopal Church

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    I consider bashing of all Traditional Christians, something that is common on CF here except in the safe places and many times they are invaded
     
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  20. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Non-traditional Christians get bashed as well...

    Goes with the territory.
     
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