Communion?

[skypair]

Parting shot skypair? I'm not sure what you mean by "trust the Bible."

It appears to me that you want us to interpret the Bible the way you do and that amounts to trusting the Bible. But the Bible never ever asks you to put your trust in the Bible.

Well, yes and no. Recall Jesus said, "If you believed in God, you would believe also in Me?" Where would God be speaking that they should believe? The Bible, right? Same with Christ, right? Do you hear God talking through men? Isn't the middle verse in the Bible still "Better to trust in the LORD than to out your confidence in man?" (Psa 118:8)

It may be that the Methodist men's group you've been hanging with is either easily swayed away from United Methodist teaching or they are just being gracious and allowing you to express your Baptist views without changing their own.

They are very gracious. They don't assume that they know everything. In fact, they often look to me to explain passages that they don't understand.

But what you've run into here is a group that is largely made up of clergy and very well educated laypeople of Wesleyan denominations. We know what our denominations teach. We are not so easily swayed to agree with you or anyone else just because they pop into our forum and start teaching another theology.

Yeah, I get that now. It is somewhat comparable (hope you won't be offended by a little history) to the "Constantinian change" circa 300 AD. The newly sanctioned religion had to be put together and the first order of business was to establish some sacraments that both Christians and pagans could understand (Christian observances in a pagan setting) .. then train the priests in their administration. This began under the rule of Decius.

As you know, the Catholic church has lots of such. "Sacramental manipulation" became more important than the Bible or doctrine in bringing the empire together. It's really quite interesting, the story behind it. Quoting from "the reformers and their stepchildren," "The first thing that had to be done was to appropriate the pagan word 'sacramentum' … and let it replace Agape of the authentic [communion] tradition. … A second thing … was to move the table out and the altar in … this would automatically change the viands [bread and wine] … on the table of Agape, into the flesh and the blood of the sacrificial victim [on an altar]. … Instead of a ritual in which partaking was the central idea, there came a ritual in which the imparting was the central thing. … All through medieval times … the typical priest of the Empire Church was a stranger to the word [of God]." pp 138-139

Not that all of this applies .. just something to consider.

sky[air

 

[circuitrider]

I think when someone believes in perfectionism, everything becomes a salvation issue, doesn't it? I mean, I don't mind if you go on receiving communion as you do now. I'm just saying that 1) it is not a salvation issue and 2) could be more closely aligned with scripture.

No. You have misunderstood the doctrine of perfection. Sanctification comes after justification. Those who are being made holy are already justified. So no, it is not a salvation issue.

As to communion, we believe the way we commune is Biblical and is fully aligned with scriptural teaching on the sacrament.

Unfortunately, I gave you a link to the full doctrinal statement of the United Methodist Church on the sacrament of communion and I'm guessing you didn't read any of it.

As Graceseeker has said, you really don't want questions answered about what we as United Methodists and Wesleyan Christians believe. You want to argue with us about our understanding of faith.

I'm not sure what your agenda is skypair. But I really don't think it actually includes learning what the teachings of the United Methodist Church are since you have refused opportunities to actually learn that.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

No. You have misunderstood the doctrine of perfection. Sanctification comes after justification. Those who are being made holy are already justified. So no, it is not a salvation issue.

As to communion, we believe the way we commune is Biblical and is fully aligned with scriptural teaching on the sacrament.

Unfortunately, I gave you a link to the full doctrinal statement of the United Methodist Church on the sacrament of communion and I'm guessing you didn't read any of it.

As Graceseeker has said, you really don't want questions answered about what we as United Methodists and Wesleyan Christians believe. You want to argue with us about our understanding of faith.

I'm not sure what your agenda is skypair. But I really don't think it actually includes learning what the teachings of the United Methodist Church are since you have refused opportunities to actually learn that.

I fear we may have stumbled upon someone who feels they'll get bonus points for arguing with people whose faith differs in some way.

Sky pair, I think its time to move on. Shake your feet of our dust, if that makes you feel better. You've already had a mod in one of these threads, and you're neither answering our questions or engaging in any sort of edifying or beneficial dialogue. Looking through these threads I see now that there's a pattern of Question from Skypair -> response from a UM or other Wesleyan -> Skypair either approving or disapproving with the response. As if it was a "test", rather than a genuine question. No room is left to learn or grow

Skypair we've had a lot of SBC Folks, folks from other denominations, etc. they've asked questions, asked for further understanding, even asked us to explain our perspective given a common argument. Never has that been an issue. This has been, unique, for sure.

And that's the end of it for me. Skypair I pray Gods blessing on you and your evangelistic fervor. And for God to mature and grow your faith and our faiths, so that we might figure out how to use that passion and energy for those who have no faith in God, rather than trying to win back door converts from other traditions.

 

[circuitrider]

And that's the end of it for me. Skypair I pray Gods blessing on you and your evangelistic fervor. And for God to mature and grow your faith and our faiths, so that we might figure out how to use that passion and energy for those who have no faith in God, rather than trying to win back door converts from other traditions.

Yes, I'm joining you and Graceseeker in saying that I'm through responding to skypair's posts unless he actually answers questions he has been asked and asks questions which are really learning about what we believe.

I'm not in this forum to defend being a Wesleyan Christian to a Baptist.

 

[skypair]

No. You have misunderstood the doctrine of perfection. Sanctification comes after justification. Those who are being made holy are already justified. So no, it is not a salvation issue.

Absolutely! That is what I believe!

As to communion, we believe the way we commune is Biblical and is fully aligned with scriptural teaching on the sacrament.

That's fine. I participate in Methodist communion, myself.

Unfortunately, I gave you a link to the full doctrinal statement of the United Methodist Church on the sacrament of communion and I'm guessing you didn't read any of it.

I did.

As Graceseeker has said, you really don't want questions answered about what we as United Methodists and Wesleyan Christians believe. You want to argue with us about our understanding of faith.

Right, I think I understand them now. Do you know Maxie Dunham? Yeah, I celebrated communion with him once. That's fine. I know how he understood it. He was pastor to one of my best friends.

Have you read Acts 18:26 lately? We all can learn "the way of God more perfectly."

I'm not sure what your agenda is skypair. But I really don't think it actually includes learning what the teachings of the United Methodist Church are since you have refused opportunities to actually learn that.

My agenda is Jesus Christ. I don't make my living off of Methodism. I'm a retired FedEx Captain (per my avatar) who desires to be a uniter around Jesus. If your agenda is different, well .. I understand.

In high school, I had a friend who started a garbage company. The motto on the side of his trucks was "Your garbage is our bread and butter." He was doing pretty well last I heard.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Skypair, I think its time to move on.

You know .. that's probably what they said to Jesus. Probably, "Hey, we got our own thing going here. Please, let sleeping dogs lie."

You've already had a mod in one of these threads, and you're neither answering our questions…

What questions? R5:8, I'm not your enemy. I'm your friend if you are saved — your brother, in fact.

Looking through these threads I see now that there's a pattern of Question from Skypair -> response from a UM or other Wesleyan -> Skypair either approving or disapproving with the response. As if it was a "test", rather than a genuine question. No room is left to learn or grow

I would simply point you to 1Cor 14:32 — "And the spirits of the prophets [teachers] are subject to the prophets." Hey, do you not have any questions of me beyond where I come from (Jn 3:8 — "the wind bloweth where it listeth .. such is every one that is born of the Spirit."). Do you not care whether what a bring is from God?

Skypair we've had a lot of SBC Folks, folks from other denominations, etc. they've asked questions, asked for further understanding, even asked us to explain our perspective given a common argument. Never has that been an issue. This has been, unique, for sure.

Thank you. Perhaps it is because I love you in the name of my Methodist fellowship. I believe we all benefit from one another's understanding of scripture.

Let me ask you .. would you like to see all Christians under one roof? My best friend here in Longview (and I) believe that all Christians ought to be under one roof — one city church like, say, Corinth. Divisions IN the church. Sure. But none of the salvation issues. Just better ways to sanctification of those who are saved already.

And that's the end of it for me. Skypair I pray Gods blessing on you and your evangelistic fervor. And for God to mature and grow your faith and our faiths, so that we might figure out how to use that passion and energy for those who have no faith in God, rather than trying to win back door converts from other traditions.

That's a sorry way to look at one another, grace. Jesus came that we might have life and that we might have it more abundantly — Jn 10:10. Are there some — in fact, many — whose lives are struggling? I believe that is because they do not have the Methodist view of sanctification. But it also may be because they do not have the biblical view of salvation. Pls, think about it.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Yes, I'm joining you and Graceseeker in saying that I'm through responding to skypair's posts unless he actually answers questions he has been asked and asks questions which are really learning about what we believe.

I'm not in this forum to defend being a Wesleyan Christian to a Baptist.

CR .. you are supposed to be "ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." 1Pet 3:15 As an aspiring pastor, you'll get used to it. You certainly won't want to appear as some cults do — all "hunkered down" and not talking to anyone about anything. Can you .. do you fellowship with Baptist Christians?

skypair

 

[MystyRock]

Parting shot skypair? I'm not sure what you mean by "trust the Bible."
But what you've run into here is a group that is largely made up of clergy and very well educated laypeople of Wesleyan denominations. We know what our denominations teach.

I must be in the minority in this forum. I'm still in the "trying to understand" phase and have lots of questions.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

I must be in the minority in this forum. I'm still in the "trying to understand" phase and have lots of questions.

Your questions are welcome and your desire for understanding is equally as welcome. Please don't feel like you aren't acceptable here. I'm worried that your thread may have been in many ways hijacked by this squabble, and for that I'm sorry.

There's a tremendous difference between someone coming in with all of the answers and wanting us to explain ourselves; and debating and arguing and systemically tearing down; as unfortunately happens from time to time (essentially, coming in and disseminating an opposing theology, rather than trying to learn anything) and someone like yourself seeking understanding.

There are many well-educated and firm clergy and laypeople on this forum; and since it is the Wesleyan forum that has to mean something (namely, that the theology is primarily Wesleyan); but your questions are welcome and I can only speak for myself; but they have fostered great discussion.

 

[circuitrider]

CR .. you are supposed to be "ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." 1Pet 3:15 As an aspiring pastor, you'll get used to it. You certainly won't want to appear as some cults do — all "hunkered down" and not talking to anyone about anything. Can you .. do you fellowship with Baptist Christians?

skypair

Skypair, I'm not an aspiring pastor. I've been an ordained minister for more than 25 years. I am the lead pastor of a very active United Methodist congregation and am an Elder in full connection in the UMC.

You are, as you've done several times, misusing the Bible in this case to suggest that I'm obligated to argue with you. I'm not.

Do I fellowship with Baptist Christians? When I can but mostly online. There aren't many Baptists in my part of the world. In my geography the top three Christian groups are Roman Catholic, Lutheran, and United Methodist. In a community of over 160,000 I can count the number of Baptist churches on one hand. I can count the number of Baptist churches which are willing to participate with clergy of other denominations on one finger and that one is on the other side of the city from me.

The largest group of Baptists in my state are American Baptists, not a group you run into much in the south. They are good folks who could be Methodists, many of them, if they'd just use a little bit less water.

 

[circuitrider]

Your questions are welcome and your desire for understanding is equally as welcome. Please don't feel like you aren't acceptable here. I'm worried that your thread may have been in many ways hijacked by this squabble, and for that I'm sorry.

There's a tremendous difference between someone coming in with all of the answers and wanting us to explain ourselves; and debating and arguing and systemically tearing down; as unfortunately happens from time to time (essentially, coming in and disseminating an opposing theology, rather than trying to learn anything) and someone like yourself seeking understanding.

There are many well-educated and firm clergy and laypeople on this forum; and since it is the Wesleyan forum that has to mean something (namely, that the theology is primarily Wesleyan); but your questions are welcome and I can only speak for myself; but they have fostered great discussion.

I'll second RomansFiveEight's remarks Mysty. Your questions have been important, insightful, heartfelt, and not the least bit argumentative.

Unfortunately not everyone is willing to follow the forum rules and the moderators are probably too busy to monitor each and every move made around here.

 

[skypair]

Skypair, I'm not an aspiring pastor. I've been an ordained minister for more than 25 years. I am the lead pastor of a very active United Methodist congregation and am an Elder in full connection in the UMC.

Sorry, CR. I must have missed that somehow.

You are, as you've done several times, misusing the Bible in this case to suggest that I'm obligated to argue with you. I'm not.

You are right .. within the church, we ought to accept the young Christian but not reply to doubtful disputations allowing the person to grow by hearing the truth.

I can count the number of Baptist churches which are willing to participate with clergy of other denominations on one finger and that one is on the other side of the city from me.

That, to me, IS sad. But I know what you are talking about. To some extent, we all look askance of other denominations — Baptists just more so. But I think you must also notice that all denominations are building separate societies for the sanctification of their members according to a range of different patterns they find in scripture.

The largest group of Baptists in my state are American Baptists, not a group you run into much in the south. They are good folks who could be Methodists, many of them, if they'd just use a little bit less water.

See, what I am trying to do is much like Paul — go out of my church (which definitely doesn't have everything right, either), and love on others as Jesus or Paul would have.

But as to the Bible, remember the verse in Jn 1 — "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us?" The Word is the Spirit and the Word is scripture. It dwelt among us and is now in us who are born again. As Jesus is what the OT looked like in person, so we are to be what the NT or Jesus looks like in person.

This is why I like to study the Bible. I don't look in it and the immediately forget what I saw. Instead, I try to apply it (I learned this in my Methodist group when we studied "Experiencing God" together. It was amazing! You might like to do that, too.)

skypair

 

[RomansFiveEight]

The Word of God in John 1 is a name for Jesus Christ; not the scriptures. The Bible does not refer to itself as the "Word of God". As we mentioned before, inerrant literalism is a product of the 19th century; and it's Muslims and Mormons that believe their scriptures were dictated by God; not Christians. We believe the scriptures were dictated by human beings who were inspired by the Holy Spirit to record what they knew and saw. Witnesses of God's mercy. "The Word of God" is used to describe Jesus specifically because God did not dictate for us a Bible; but instead sent his son to be the perfect and full example of humanity and the incarnation of God on earth. Somehow; we've gotten the two (the Bible and Jesus) mixed up.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Thank you all for your time. I guess my fellowshipping with the Methodist men where I live led me to believe that Methodists were more trusting of the Bible than I now find here.

I do trust the Bible. But I find you so infrequently referring to it. Rather, I find you continually reference a few words taken out of context from the larger message and point the Bible intends to convey and turning biblical teaching on its head with very unsubstantiated claims as to the meaning of the text that I suspect is the parroting of bad theology gleaned from sources other than the Bible itself.

CR .. you are supposed to be "ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." 1Pet 3:15

First off, where I said I was done was not a cessation of fellowship. I'm always glad to be in fellowship with any brother or sister in Christ. I was done having a conversation in that thread, skypair, where you were responding to questions I had not asked and not answering those I had. Your behavior in it was resulting in a lack of communication taking place. So, there was no point in me continuing to try to communicate with you when you had gone so far from the conversation. That is a means of holding you accountable in a way where I was trying to be as loving as I could be, for I indicated that if you did address the actual questions I put forth that I would be happy to continue the conversation, but I was not willing to engage in spurious and meaningless talk. I think that you will find the Bible speaks against that sort of "idle" talk as well.


Secondly, I believe you've misunderstood the import of this scripture you reference above. So, let's look at what the text actually says:

και τις ο κακωσων υμας εαν του αγαθου ζηλωται γενησθε αλλ ει και πασχοιτε δια δικαιοσυνην μακαριοι τον δε φοβον αυτων μη φοβηθητε μηδε ταραχθητε κυριον δε τον χριστον αγιασατε εν ταις καρδιαις υμων ετοιμοι αει προς απολογιαν παντι τω αιτουντι υμας λογον περι της εν υμιν ελπιδος συνειδησιν εχοντες αγαθην ινα εν ω καταλαλεισθε καταισχυνθωσιν οι επηρεαζοντες υμων την αγαθην εν χριστω αναστροφην κρειττον γαρ αγαθοποιουντας ει θελοι το θελημα του θεου πασχειν η κακοποιουντας

This passage isn't about arguing with people. This is a passage about living in the larger context of living with suffering. And how/why are we who are Christians able to do so? Because of the hope that is within us. This passage has nothing whatsoever to do with interpreting the scriptrues. It has everything to do with applying a living faith to the circumstances of our life.

So, the idea that someone "owes" you are anyone else an "answer" simply isn't biblical. It is an interpretation, a human interpretation, not a divine one, that strays from the actual meaning and context of the text.

The απολογιαν that we give isn't a part of a debate, but a part of living before people in such a way that they are able to see that even in the midst of suffering that Christians hang on to a hope that rests in the reality not of their situation, but what God has done in Christ Jesus. In that way it "defends" the Gospel message because it shows that the living God creates in us a new and living faith, even in the face of death and suffering. That hope can lead others who are inflicting the suffering on us to ask how do they hang on the way they do, and then we are given a chance to share our faith in answer to their questions. But, again, we don't do so to win a debate, but with gentleness and respect for others so that our witness might win them for God. Better to lose the debate and win a soul than win the debate and turn people off of God. I fear many who argue theology tend to do the later. Pray that I not be among them.

 

[skypair]

The Word of God in John 1 is a name for Jesus Christ; not the scriptures.

Technically, the Word is the Spirit but He is called "Word" because He is given us through scriptures. I mean, that's my understanding and that Jesus fulfilled all that the scriptures said about Him. You would probably agree with that, right?

... and it's Muslims and Mormons that believe their scriptures were dictated by God; not Christians.

Scriptures not "God breathed," 1Tim 3:16?

We believe the scriptures were dictated by human beings who were inspired by the Holy Spirit to record what they knew and saw.

Hmmm? Is the Spirit not God? I think Mohammed was simply making the same claim as the writers of the Bible. His wife was a Christian, you know. He had some understanding of the Bible — in fact, wanted to adapt the tribal religions to Christianity before he was booted out of Mecca the first time.

...because God did not dictate for us a Bible; but instead sent his son to be the perfect and full example of humanity and the incarnation of God on earth. Somehow; we've gotten the two (the Bible and Jesus) mixed up.

So God didn't dictate the prophecies of Jesus in the OT? And then Jesus fulfill them? This, if I may say so, is getting very curious.

skypair

 

[RomansFiveEight]

What happened to being done skypair? You're asking questions I've already answered. Just scroll up one, append what I already said under each of your questions, and you'll have your answers.

This topic was about a woman who had some deep and earnest questions about her faith; how do you think you hijacking it and making it about Baptist theology helped anything? Aside from being woefully off topic and argumentative? She came here asking for a Methodist perspective and you interjected your interpretation, declaring ours wrong because we're not inerrantists. (And no, no matter how many times you ask and repeat the question over and over and over again; we aren't and won't be.)

 

[skypair]

I do trust the Bible. But I find you so infrequently referring to it. Rather, I find you continually reference a few words taken out of context from the larger message and point the Bible intends to convey and turning biblical teaching on its head with very unsubstantiated claims as to the meaning of the text that I suspect is the parroting of bad theology gleaned from sources other than the Bible itself.

Ever since I learned to write as a child, I have fought with the tendency to assume that the reader will know something they probably don't know. I apologize. I know that it does, often, hinder my message. Please be patient and ask questions things that I may have not offered.

I was done having a conversation in that thread, skypair, where you were responding to questions I had not asked and not answering those I had.

I was trying. Perhaps what you were expecting was not what you got so you thought I hadn't answered. Again, I was trying to answer you, but I do have my limitations.

Secondly, I believe you've misunderstood the import of this scripture you reference above. So, let's look at what the text actually says:

και τις ο κακωσων υμας εαν του αγαθου ζηλωται γενησθε αλλ ει και πασχοιτε δια δικαιοσυνην μακαριοι τον δε φοβον αυτων μη φοβηθητε μηδε ταραχθητε κυριον δε τον χριστον αγιασατε εν ταις καρδιαις υμων ετοιμοι αει προς απολογιαν παντι τω αιτουντι υμας λογον περι της εν υμιν ελπιδος συνειδησιν εχοντες αγαθην ινα εν ω καταλαλεισθε καταισχυνθωσιν οι επηρεαζοντες υμων την αγαθην εν χριστω αναστροφην κρειττον γαρ αγαθοποιουντας ει θελοι το θελημα του θεου πασχειν η κακοποιουντας

This passage isn't about arguing with people. This is a passage about living in the larger context of living with suffering. And how/why are we who are Christians able to do so? Because of the hope that is within us. This passage has nothing whatsoever to do with interpreting the scriptrues. It has everything to do with applying a living faith to the circumstances of our life.

So, the idea that someone "owes" you are anyone else an "answer" simply isn't biblical. It is an interpretation, a human interpretation, not a divine one, that strays from the actual meaning and context of the text.

Yeah, I see that. Do you think it precludes us being ready to give an answer under other circumstances? And aren't you interpreting that I am saying evil of you, 3:16? My "conversation in Christ" doesn't seem "good" to you, does it?

But, again, we don't do so to win a debate, but with gentleness and respect for others so that our witness might win them for God. Better to lose the debate and win a soul than win the debate and turn people off of God. I fear many who argue theology tend to do the later. Pray that I not be among them.

I agree! This is not a debate — it is edification we are endeavoring to do (at least I am). We build each other up in what? scriptures, right? God's word, not our own.

skypair

 

[skypair]

What happened to being done skypair?

You asked a question that seemed to be another topic, R5.

This topic was about a woman who had some deep and earnest questions about her faith; how do you think you hijacking it and making it about Baptist theology helped anything?

It's not Baptist theology, for one. It is advice from scripture that, whether I decide to join a Methodist or a Baptist church in the future will still be true. Perhaps if I explain it that there are many Methodists and many Baptists that I find to be true members of the invisible body of Christ. It's kind of like Christ found both unbelievers and believers ("a few even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white for they are worthy.") in Sardis, Rev 3:4. Were you aware that Sardis refers to both Calvinist and Arminian churches that grew out of the Reformation? Yeah, that means many Baptist churches, too.

She came here asking for a Methodist perspective and you interjected your interpretation, declaring ours wrong because we're not inerrantists. (And no, no matter how many times you ask and repeat the question over and over and over again; we aren't and won't be.)

I can understand that you believe you have the only right answers here on this Methodist/Wesleyan forum but there are a "few who have not defiled their garments" who are also Methodists at heart. Which is more important: that she get help or that she get Methodist help?

Realize, R5, that I do not relish debating with you on the side of the issues of this thread. I am not the one that is making an issue of "Baptist theology" here. You have claimed such simply because one who might be a Methodist claims inerrancy that you don't.

skypair

 

[MystyRock]

Since I initiated this thread, maybe I should clarify. I've lived in the Baptist world for many years; in an environment that could be classified as cultish. Questions were not encouraged.

"Random" circumstances brought a Methodist into my life. Not something I sought, or even thought I needed.

I now attend a Methodist church and find most of the ones on this forum to be kind and helpful. Even when I have trouble understanding something and have to ask more questions.

I pose my questions in this forum because I want to hear a Methodist point of view. I've heard others, but I'm seeking Methodist advice.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

Since I initiated this thread, maybe I should clarify. I've lived in the Baptist world for many years; in an environment that could be classified as cultish. Questions were not encouraged.

"Random" circumstances brought a Methodist into my life. Not something I sought, or even thought I needed.

I now attend a Methodist church and find most of the ones on this forum to be kind and helpful. Even when I have trouble understanding something and have to ask more questions.

I pose my questions in this forum because I want to hear a Methodist point of view. I've heard others, but I'm seeking Methodist advice.

Your presence is appreciated. Genuine questions, even by those who disagree, are always welcome. I have had great conversations over coffee with atheists, the Pastor of the Fundie Baptist Church down the road, Roman Catholics, and so on. Nobodies opinions were changed; but we developed a better understanding of one another. We didn't attack or break down one another and demand we explain ourselves, we simply gathered better understanding by asking each other why these things are important to us.

For example, I grew up in the SBC hearing that Roman Catholics treated saints like God's, worshipped them, prayed to them, and believed that if they prayed to enough saints they'd get into heaven. I was told over and over again about how Catholics were polytheistic anti-Christians. Well, I married a (now former) Catholic. And several of my parishioners are former Catholic. I've learned that they view the saints as simply people of great faith, whom they pray to Jesus through. Their prayers still go to God; but through the saints. It's sort of like me asking you to pray for me. Only, in this scenario, I'm asking a dead religious leader. I still don't agree with that perspective; my view on death is that it's wholly incompatible with life and those in the presence of Christ are incompatible with those on earth; and so no way do any saints hear our prayers no matter how earnest. But, believing that you can ask someone in heaven to pray for you, is a far far shot away from worshipping other God's and such that I was taught. That's how it works, I gain a better understanding, even if it doesn't change my mind.

P.S., one particular Southern Baptist in our community was absolutely vehement about the Catholic church having a statue of Mary in a garden in front of the church. This was some years ago. In fact, he at one point even petitioned the city to have it removed because it was 'idol worship'. Obviously, the city said heck no, that's just asinine. The story goes that the then priest, an elderly gentlemen serving this little Catholic church in retirement rather than living in a priest retirement home (those exist, by the way), one Christmas knocked on the door of the Baptist parsonage. When the Pastor came to the door, the Priest said "I just thought you should know, before anyone else finds out, but someone has vandalized your church with statues of Pagan gods. There's even a blessed mother statue right there on the front lawn". Furious, the Pastor ran over to the church, to find a manger scene that his parishioners had set up. That he knew about, and condoned. And, well, what's in a manger scene? Is it not a statue of Mary? HA!

(P.S., I still am not hugely fond of statues, but it does give perspective)

The point of all this is to encourage you. We are glad you are asking questions, whether you align with our theology or not. We are never afraid to talk about our faith. But, most of us aren't interested in arguing about it, or being belittled about it.