Communion

[Alexander Nissi]

First of all I want to say I'm not catholic but I have been asked some questions by some of my non christian friends about catholic beliefs on this issue

one of the questions was In the catholic church is communion a requirement for salvation? another friend said that she had heard that the catholics believed that the bread and wine actually become jesus's body and blood when they took communion. and What basis is that belief based on?

I would like to know how to answer their questions but as I told them I don't know that much about Catholic doctrine. How would I answer these questions?~Alec

 

[Dream]

another friend said that she had heard that the catholics believed that the bread and wine actually become jesus's body and blood when they took communion. and What basis is that belief based on?

How can you ignore John 6 and the Last Supper when reading the Bible?

 

[Michelina]

cf: Mt 26: 26-28; Mk 14: 22-24; Lk 22: 19ff; Jn 6: 51ff;

1 Cor. 10: 16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?

1 Cor 11: 23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.


from The Catechism of the Catholic Church

1373 "Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us," is present in many ways to his Church: in his word, in his Church's prayer, "where two or three are gathered in my name," in the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned, in the sacraments of which he is the author, in the sacrifice of the Mass, and in the person of the minister. But "he is present . . . most especially in the Eucharistic species."

1374 The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend." In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained." "This presence is called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."

1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ's body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:

It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God's. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.

And St. Ambrose says about this conversion:

Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed. . . . Could not Christ's word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.

1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."

1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ

 

[PioMagnus]

No, we do not believe that the Eucharist is REQUIRED for salvation. It is however, a great help to the spiritual health of one's soul.

now, on to the meat of your question.

Where?

Here.

Jn 6:54-59 ...He who eats (phago) my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my Flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats (trogos) my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats (trogos) me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate (phago) and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caperna-um.

Phago meants "To eat meat", Trogos means "to gnaw or Crunch"--Once the disciples get the idea that they need to eat his flesh, He follows up by emphasizing how serious he is about their doing EXACTLY that.

Jn. 6:60-63 Many of his disciples, when the yheard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

NOTE that He does NOT mean to indicate that His flesh is of no avail. He says "The Flesh". Paul explains what that means below:

1 Cor 2:14-3:3
The Unspiritual man does not receive the figrs of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. "For who has known the mind of the lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.....But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ. I fed you with mik, not solid food; for you were no ready for it; and even yet you are not ready. for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strive among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving like ordinary men?

Christ means that acting in an ordinary way is of no avail; we have to see the supernatual reality which He has given us, and which He will give them through the power of the Cross-His own flesh and blood made presne in His glrified body for our food.

Jn 6:64-66 But there are some of you that do not believe. For jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. And he said "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.

This is the only ONLY ONLY instance in which disciples leave Jesus. If they had misunderstood, if Jesus meant that it should be figurative he would have said, "Wait, brothers, come back. You misunderstand. Let me explain. All that is a parable."---but he didn't. The fact that he DID NOT correct them speaks volumes. He MEANT what he said.

Mt 14:26-30

Mk 14:22-26

Lk 22:14-20

All speak of "Bread" as "Body", as well as "Wine" as "Blood"---not figurative, as can be understood from the passages I've cited.

Further:

1 Cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

I hope I helped clear up the Catholic position, and our biblical justification for it.

God Bless,
Pio Magnus

 

[Archbishop 10-K]

I believe that Communion is required, as far as being a divine commandment goes. "Do this in remembrance of me."

So therefore, if we are required to obey Christ for salvation, then Communion is "necessary for salvation."

 

[Dream]

Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. (John 6:53)

I don't understand how people can take everything in the Bible literally except for this statement.

A lot of His followers left when He said this. If Jesus was merely being symbolic, why didn't He say "No, wait! It was just an analogy! I didn't mean that literally!"

 

[PioMagnus]

I may have been unclear. Those who, for instance get baptism of desire. IE, they never get the gift of the Eucharist, but Heaven is not kept from them because of it.

 

[Michelina]

I hope I helped clear up the Catholic position, and our biblical justification for it.

An excellent presentation, PioMagnus!

 

[Alexander Nissi]

Thanks for clearing that up for me~Alec

 

[Truth and Reconciliation]

As a Protestant, I was always taught against transubstantiation. But the more I read into God's Word, the more it comes alive to me that transubstantiation is valid.

Jesus Himself said, as pointed out before, "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever." - John 6:51 (NAB)

The Eucharist as received IS indeed the Body and the Blood of Christ, that was shed for all mankind. Through the grace of God we are saved. But our faith we grow. Through our faith Christ lives in the Eucharist.

Pax Dei,

Vincent

 

[Alexis OCA]

This is the only ONLY ONLY instance in which disciples leave Jesus. If they had misunderstood, if Jesus meant that it should be figurative he would have said, "Wait, brothers, come back. You misunderstand. Let me explain. All that is a parable."---but he didn't. The fact that he DID NOT correct them speaks volumes. He MEANT what he said.

PM, that is such a critical point. Thank you for stressing it!

 

[Michelina]

As a Protestant, I was always taught against transubstantiation. But the more I read into God's Word, the more it comes alive to me that transubstantiation is valid. ...Jesus Himself said, as pointed out before, "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever." - John 6:51 (NAB)

The Eucharist as received IS indeed the Body and the Blood of Christ, that was shed for all mankind. Through the grace of God we are saved. But our faith we grow. Through our faith Christ lives in the Eucharist.

A little clarification for you, Vincent: It is not through our Faith that Christ 'lives' in the Eucharist. The Real Presence is an objective reality that doesn't depend on our Faith. Priests confect the Sacrament by the power given to them by apostolic succession in order to fulfill the command given by Our Lord to "do this in commemoration of me". Only Catholic and Orthodox Priests have this power. No one else has it.

Please feel free to inquire about this, Vincent. It will not be construed as debating.

 

[BornCath]

First of all I want to say I'm not catholic but I have been asked some questions by some of my non christian friends about catholic beliefs on this issue

one of the questions was In the catholic church is communion a requirement for salvation? another friend said that she had heard that the catholics believed that the bread and wine actually become jesus's body and blood when they took communion. and What basis is that belief based on?

I would like to know how to answer their questions but as I told them I don't know that much about Catholic doctrine. How would I answer these questions?~Alec

Tell your non-Christian friends that salvation is conditional and receiving communion is one of the conditions. Some of the conditions are:

1. Baptism - Unless one is baptized he/she cannot enter heaven.
2. Perseverance to the end - Only those who persevere to the end will be saved.
3. Faith & work - Not all who say Lord Lord will be saved. Only saved are those who do the will of Jesus Father.
4. Communion - Unless one eats Jesus' flesh and drink His blood he/she does'nt have life in him/her (John 6:53)
5. Unquestionable virtue - If one's virtue does not rise above that of the pharisees (hypocrites) one is in danger of not entering heaven.

Anything else anyone can add? I'm sure there're more conditions.

 

[Alexander Nissi]

Tell your non-Christian friends that salvation is conditional and receiving communion is one of the conditions. Some of the conditions are:

1. Baptism - Unless one is baptized he/she cannot enter heaven.
2. Perseverance to the end - Only those who persevere to the end will be saved.
3. Faith & work - Not all who say Lord Lord will be saved. Only saved are those who do the will of Jesus Father.
4. Communion - Unless one eats Jesus' flesh and drink His blood he/she does'nt have life in him/her (John 6:53)
5. Unquestionable virtue - If one's virtue does not rise above that of the pharisees (hypocrites) one is in danger of not entering heaven.

Anything else anyone can add? I'm sure there're more conditions.

if these are all conditions of salvation then how do you explain ephesians 2 verses 8 and 9 that say"For by Grace you have been saved through faith, andthat not of yourselves;it is the gift of god,not of works lest any man should boast."and the other verse I don't remember the place but it says that My father who is greater than all has given them to me and no one shall pluck them out of my hand. ? Baptism is a work done by us in obedience to God. All of these things are works except for faith that we do in obedience to God because we love him, and all are done after salvation has already been granted.~Alec

 

[Michelina]

if these are all conditions of salvation then how do you explain ephesians 2 verses 8 and 9 that say"For by Grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of god, not of works lest any man should boast."and the other verse I don't remember the place but it says that My father who is greater than all has given them to me and no one shall pluck them out of my hand. ? Baptism is a work done by us in obedience to God. All of these things are works except for faith that we do in obedience to God because we love him, and all are done after salvation has already been granted.~Alec

MOD HAT ON
Alec, please do not debate us here in OBOB. It is not allowed.

 

[isshinwhat]

His choosing to Commune with us, to allow us into such a great level of intimacy with Him, is in no way a work of ours. It is a sheer gift of grace. Choosing to follow that call is our choice, though, whether it means following Him to the Lamb's Supper or some additional duty that we take upon ourselves as Christians. "...if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?"

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Michelina]

Tell your non-Christian friends that salvation is conditional and receiving communion is one of the conditions. Some of the conditions are:

1. Baptism - Unless one is baptized he/she cannot enter heaven.
2. Perseverance to the end - Only those who persevere to the end will be saved.
3. Faith & work - Not all who say Lord Lord will be saved. Only saved are those who do the will of Jesus Father.
4. Communion - Unless one eats Jesus' flesh and drink His blood he/she does'nt have life in him/her (John 6:53)
5. Unquestionable virtue - If one's virtue does not rise above that of the pharisees (hypocrites) one is in danger of not entering heaven.

Anything else anyone can add? I'm sure there're more conditions.

Born Cath, although all the things you mention are true, your statement is somewhat overly-simple. Our non-Catholic brethren do not have a Catholic context in which they can understand what you wrote.

 

[Dream]

if these are all conditions of salvation then how do you explain ephesians 2 verses 8 and 9 that say"For by Grace you have been saved through faith, andthat not of yourselves;it is the gift of god,not of works lest any man should boast."

Pretty straight-forward. Salvation will always be a gift from God; it's not something that we as men can earn.

and the other verse I don't remember the place but it says that My father who is greater than all has given them to me and no one shall pluck them out of my hand. ?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Baptism is a work done by us in obedience to God.

True.

All of these things are works except for faith that we do in obedience to God because we love him, and all are done after salvation has already been granted.

No. Salvation is a life-long process. It is not something we simply get. God is always inviting us to everlasting life, so we must always work to accept this invitation.

Read Matthew 21:28-32. Simply saying that you will do God's will is not enough.

 

[Alexander Nissi]

MOD HAT ON
Alec, please do not debate us here in OBOB. It is not allowed.

I'm sorry I was not trying to start a debate. It's just that what I said was what I was faced with when I was talking to my friend.~Alec

 

[Michelina]

I'm sorry I was not trying to start a debate. It's just that what I said was what I was faced with when I was talking to my friend.~Alec

I understand your situation, Alec. I didn't think it was malicious. I just wanted to save us all from a major problem. May the Peace of Jesus be with you!