Communion Question

[Confess]

Ok.
This is the scenario:

You have a young man who is not a member of any Lutheran denomination, but has been going to a Lutheran church for the past 9 years.

He has the 10 commandments memorized, their meanings.
He has the Lord's Prayer memorized and it's meaning.
He has the Creed, Lord's Supper, Absolution, and Baptism memorized and their meanings.

Not many people are like this young man who has memorized their Catechism like this.

Now, he desires the Lord's Supper and his pastor says that he cannot do so until he finishes one more year of classes as all new members must do. He already has completed 4 months of classes. The pastor also says that wrote memorization does not mean that you have understanding. In my opinion, this young man appears to understand more then many pastors I have met.

Is the pastor right is doing this?

 

[QuiltAngel]

Each Pastor/church sets their confirmation process for adults. While 16 months of classes seems like a long time, that is what this Pastor does. The Pastor is right that just because someone has memorized something, it does not mean understanding is there. Although with someone who has been attending for 9 years, he probably does understand. Would he consider speeding things up for the person?

I know of a congregation that requires all to attend the adult confirmation classes, whether or not they are from the same synod or not.

 

[Aibrean]

I'm going to be going through confirmation class and I consider it a blessing when I used to go to a church where all that was needed was a profession of faith to partake in communion.

Anyway I know what he is going through because I used to partake at my old church but I can't now because I haven't been baptized.

He is going to feel a lot better in the end when he sees his growth. It's probably going to mean more to him as well.

 

[DaRev]

Ok.
This is the scenario:

You have a young man who is not a member of any Lutheran denomination, but has been going to a Lutheran church for the past 9 years.

He has the 10 commandments memorized, their meanings.
He has the Lord's Prayer memorized and it's meaning.
He has the Creed, Lord's Supper, Absolution, and Baptism memorized and their meanings.

Not many people are like this young man who has memorized their Catechism like this.

Now, he desires the Lord's Supper and his pastor says that he cannot do so until he finishes one more year of classes as all new members must do. He already has completed 4 months of classes. The pastor also says that wrote memorization does not mean that you have understanding. In my opinion, this young man appears to understand more then many pastors I have met.

Is the pastor right is doing this?

Short answer? Yes.

Book smarts does not equate to understanding or worthiness. The pastor is doing his called duty to be a proper steward of the mysteries. I am impressed by him because so many would just allow him to commune without being certain of his understanding.

 

[DaSeminarian]

Short answer? Yes.

Book smarts does not equate to understanding or worthiness. The pastor is doing his called duty to be a proper steward of the mysteries. I am impressed by him because so many would just allow him to commune without being certain of his understanding.

Amen! PReach it brother!

 

[Confess]

Book smarts?

That is a biased assumption wouldn't you say?

I mean the young man has never been examined to find out if what he has is understanding or if he has "book smarts".

The problem is that this pastor making an assumption that this person has book smarts rather then taking time to find out for himself if this person has true understanding.

As Stewards of the Mysteries of God, I would think that a pastor would not ban a person from the Altar based on assumptions and would take the time to fully examine the person for himself if this person requests it.

You see, I don't get this "confirmation completion = Lord's Supper" thing. The reason is because basically you are banning people from the Lord's Supper who are not taking it to their harm by assuming that only the classes make a person worthy.

If a person were to come to a pastor and say that they have faithfully gone to DS for 9 straight years, attended nearly every SS class and studied the catechism at home to the point of memorizing it as well as being able to express their faith only to be banned because they have not gone threw "X" amount of confirmation classes, then that tells people in the congregation (as well as this person and parents who catechize their children at home) that all that work was done in vain for one is only worthy of the sacrament if they go through classes.

Oh, and BTW: he was baptized as an infant in a Lutheran church

 

[DaRev]

Book smarts?

That is a biased assumption wouldn't you say?

I mean the young man has never been examined to find out if what he has is understanding or if he has "book smarts".

The problem is that this pastor making an assumption that this person has book smarts rather then taking time to find out for himself if this person has true understanding.

As Stewards of the Mysteries of God, I would think that a pastor would not ban a person from the Altar based on assumptions and would take the time to fully examine the person for himself if this person requests it.

You see, I don't get this "confirmation completion = Lord's Supper" thing. The reason is because basically you are banning people from the Lord's Supper who are not taking it to their harm by assuming that only the classes make a person worthy.

If a person were to come to a pastor and say that they have faithfully gone to DS for 9 straight years, attended nearly every SS class and studied the catechism at home to the point of memorizing it as well as being able to express their faith only to be banned because they have not gone threw "X" amount of confirmation classes, then that tells people in the congregation (as well as this person and parents who catechize their children at home) that all that work was done in vain for one is only worthy of the sacrament if they go through classes.

Oh, and BTW: he was baptized as an infant in a Lutheran church

I really can't understand peoples problem with this.

Scripture clearly teaches us that the Lord's Supper is a statement of faith, a public confession of fellowship. Simply memorizing the 10 Commandments and the Lord's Prayer does not equate to altar fellowship. There are a number of Baptists and Presbyterians and Roman Catholics who have memorized the contents of the Catechism, but they are not in fellowship and thus cannot make that public proclamation of fellowship at a Lutheran altar. The pastor is the one with the God given authority to determine who is able to receive that which he is given to administer. It is his call and no one elses. There is a reason that we call it "communicant" membership.

 

[KimLCMS]

Book smarts?

That is a biased assumption wouldn't you say?

I mean the young man has never been examined to find out if what he has is understanding or if he has "book smarts".

The problem is that this pastor making an assumption that this person has book smarts rather then taking time to find out for himself if this person has true understanding.

As Stewards of the Mysteries of God, I would think that a pastor would not ban a person from the Altar based on assumptions and would take the time to fully examine the person for himself if this person requests it.

You see, I don't get this "confirmation completion = Lord's Supper" thing. The reason is because basically you are banning people from the Lord's Supper who are not taking it to their harm by assuming that only the classes make a person worthy.

If a person were to come to a pastor and say that they have faithfully gone to DS for 9 straight years, attended nearly every SS class and studied the catechism at home to the point of memorizing it as well as being able to express their faith only to be banned because they have not gone threw "X" amount of confirmation classes, then that tells people in the congregation (as well as this person and parents who catechize their children at home) that all that work was done in vain for one is only worthy of the sacrament if they go through classes.

Oh, and BTW: he was baptized as an infant in a Lutheran church

I don't know the person we are talking about here, but is it possible that the pastor may have some insight that we do not have. Maybe things have been said privately by the person to the pastor that lead the pastor to believe that the person needs to complete these classes.

 

[DaRev]

I don't know the person we are talking about here, but is it possible that the pastor may have some insight that we do not have. Maybe things have been said privately by the person to the pastor that lead the pastor to believe that the person needs to complete these classes.

It could also be a congregational requirement for communicant membership. Some church constitutions have requirements for membership (and as far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on that!).

We had to modify our constitution recently to clarify some things. I had two families go through new member instruction. Both were very eager to join. Both had children they wanted baptized. One even donated a rather sizeabke sum of money towards our new snow thrower. But because one of the council members has daggers for me, she voted their membership down. her reason was that she didn;t think hey would actually come to church. The problem is that SHE only shows up a half dozen times a year... if that!! And she's an officer of the church!!

 

[porterross]

It could also be a congregational requirement for communicant membership. Some church constitutions have requirements for membership (and as far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on that!).

We had to modify our constitution recently to clarify some things. I had two families go through new member instruction. Both were very eager to join. Both had children they wanted baptized. One even donated a rather sizeabke sum of money towards our new snow thrower. But because one of the council members has daggers for me, she voted their membership down. her reason was that she didn;t think hey would actually come to church. The problem is that SHE only shows up a half dozen times a year... if that!! And she's an officer of the church!!

How very sad. So are those folks now indeed members or did they get mad and go somewhere else?
How in the world could there be language in your constitution to allow disqualification based on personal judgement by assumption?

 

[DaRev]

How very sad. So are those folks now indeed members or did they get mad and go somewhere else?

I have tried repeatedly to contact them; by phone, by mail, knocking on the door... they have vanished. And I can't say as I blame them. They're gone and I don't expect to see or hear from them again.
And there are those here who will say it's my fault!

How in the world could there be language in your constitution to allow disqualification based on personal judgement by assumption?

It wasn't so much what it said as what it didn't say, and then how it was interpreted by the council. This was the main reason for re-writing parts of it.

When I shared this with my brethren in the circuit, they couldn't believe that I, as the pastor, couldn't bring members into the church without unanimous council/voters approval.

 

[porterross]

I have tried repeatedly to contact them; by phone, by mail, knocking on the door... they have vanished. And I can't say as I blame them. They're gone and I don't expect to see or hear from them again.
And there are those here who will say it's my fault!



It wasn't so much what it said as what it didn't say, and then how it was interpreted by the council. This was the main reason for re-writing parts of it.

When I shared this with my brethren in the circuit, they couldn't believe that I, as the pastor, couldn't bring members into the church without unanimous council/voters approval.

No kidding. I'm surprised about that as well. I know my pastor decided for himself that my membership was reinstated here. There was no council vote on it.

How would they have known what discussions had taken place about my penitence and whether or not I still indeed had knowledge of the Catechism and the Confessions unless the pastor told them so?

Get those people under control, Rev!

 

[DaRev]

No kidding. I'm surprised about that as well. I know my pastor decided for himself that my membership was reinstated here. There was no council vote on it.

How would they have known what discussions had taken place about my penitence and whether or not I still indeed had knowledge of the Catechism and the Confessions unless the pastor told them so?

Get those people under control, Rev!

Guess I'll have to warm up my floggin' whip on them!

 

[seajoy]

It could also be a congregational requirement for communicant membership. Some church constitutions have requirements for membership (and as far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on that!).

We had to modify our constitution recently to clarify some things. I had two families go through new member instruction. Both were very eager to join. Both had children they wanted baptized. One even donated a rather sizeabke sum of money towards our new snow thrower. But because one of the council members has daggers for me, she voted their membership down. her reason was that she didn;t think hey would actually come to church. The problem is that SHE only shows up a half dozen times a year... if that!! And she's an officer of the church!!

What?
Just don't let the women vote....that's what we do.

 

[Jim47]

Ok.
This is the scenario:

You have a young man who is not a member of any Lutheran denomination, but has been going to a Lutheran church for the past 9 years.

He has the 10 commandments memorized, their meanings.
He has the Lord's Prayer memorized and it's meaning.
He has the Creed, Lord's Supper, Absolution, and Baptism memorized and their meanings.

Not many people are like this young man who has memorized their Catechism like this.

Now, he desires the Lord's Supper and his pastor says that he cannot do so until he finishes one more year of classes as all new members must do. He already has completed 4 months of classes. The pastor also says that wrote memorization does not mean that you have understanding. In my opinion, this young man appears to understand more then many pastors I have met.

Is the pastor right is doing this?

I really doubt that his Pastor would have any reason other then an honorable one to make him wait. We also need to remember that Holy Communion is not required for salvation.

 

[Jim47]

It could also be a congregational requirement for communicant membership. Some church constitutions have requirements for membership (and as far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on that!).

We had to modify our constitution recently to clarify some things. I had two families go through new member instruction. Both were very eager to join. Both had children they wanted baptized. One even donated a rather sizeabke sum of money towards our new snow thrower. But because one of the council members has daggers for me, she voted their membership down. her reason was that she didn;t think hey would actually come to church. The problem is that SHE only shows up a half dozen times a year... if that!! And she's an officer of the church!!

I didn't know the LCMS allowed women to hold offices in the church

 

[Confess]

I really can't understand peoples problem with this.

Scripture clearly teaches us that the Lord's Supper is a statement of faith, a public confession of fellowship. Simply memorizing the 10 Commandments and the Lord's Prayer does not equate to altar fellowship. There are a number of Baptists and Presbyterians and Roman Catholics who have memorized the contents of the Catechism, but they are not in fellowship and thus cannot make that public proclamation of fellowship at a Lutheran altar. The pastor is the one with the God given authority to determine who is able to receive that which he is given to administer. It is his call and no one elses. There is a reason that we call it "communicant" membership.

But he understands and took a long time to learn the Lutheran faith before deciding to become a member. If the pastor would examine him then he would know that he understands the faith and does not simply "memorize". I am pretty shocked that when a person takes the time to memorize and learn the catechism, they are then discriminated against in this way.

The classes are set up to teach the unlearned so that they will be able to take the sacrament worthily as well as learn what the church believes, they are not to be used to block those who know, understand and desire the Lord's Supper and have learned what the church believes. Those few who are advanced in such understanding should not be treated like a simpleton.

 

[seajoy]

I have tried repeatedly to contact them; by phone, by mail, knocking on the door... they have vanished. And I can't say as I blame them. They're gone and I don't expect to see or hear from them again.
And there are those here who will say it's my fault!

That's so sad, Pastor.
You've done what you can to change things there. Good for you. God Bless.

 

[seajoy]

But he understands and took a long time to learn the Lutheran faith before deciding to become a member. If the pastor would examine him then he would know that he understands the faith and does not simply "memorize". I am pretty shocked that when a person takes the time to memorize and learn the catechism, they are then discriminated against in this way.

The classes are set up to teach the unlearned so that they will be able to take the sacrament worthily as well as learn what the church believes, they are not to be used to block those who know, understand and desire the Lord's Supper and have learned what the church believes. Those few who are advanced in such understanding should not be treated like a simpleton.

Do what you can to encourage him to finish things as the pastor requires. I'm sure it's hard to wait, but that time will pass.

 

[Confess]

I don't know the person we are talking about here, but is it possible that the pastor may have some insight that we do not have. Maybe things have been said privately by the person to the pastor that lead the pastor to believe that the person needs to complete these classes.

No, the pastor has zero insight on this matter. He has not examined him and will not do so.

For the pastor to be honest in his appraisal, he should examine first - then make a decision.