Communion given by laymen?

[TCat]

I remember reading something along the lines of "only" an ordained pastor should be giving communion. Is that right?

My worship leader generally gives communion to the choir before services start so that we do not have to miss it.

I know that our prison ministry leaders give communion at the jails, and use non alcoholic wine.

I think the people who visit the shut-ins offer communion.

Did I misread that post from way back?

 

[Studeclunker]

The answer to your question is in this thread:
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7252140

In a nutshell, no it isn't wrong, just unwise. The Office Of The Keys belongs to the Congregation, or laity. However, in giving the Pastor the office the Congregation cedes this to protect itself from error. Technically, only the pastor should be administering or presiding over any Holy Communion. Doubtless, any mistake I've made here will be corrected speedily, and rightfully so.

 

[TCat]

Thanks for the reply,

Our worship leader is now in seminary so he is a Vicor now, I guess that counts. Our prison ministry is lead by an elder or two so I am sure they are the ones distributing communion in the prison. I have no idea about he shut-ins.

We always have deacons help with distribution of the elements after the pastor presides in every service, church would last all day otherwise.

I understand that the Catholic church teaches that unless a priest presides over the hosts it cannot be changed into the body but of course that goes to works does it not?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thanks for the reply,

I understand that the Catholic church teaches that unless a priest presides over the hosts it cannot be changed into the body but of course that goes to works does it not?

That's what the RCC teaches, but Scripture does not. It's the "Verbum Domini", the words of our Lord that consecrate the bread and wine. It has nothing to do with us, our faith, or how faithful the Pastor is. It is our Lord's own words only.

Our confessions tell us that (a paraphrase) "word and Sacrament remain efficacious even when administered by evil men".

The pastoral office is certainly Biblical.

Our confessions also indicate that the sacraments should be administered by a Pastor for the sake of uniformity and good order.

Hope this helps.

Mark

 

[ctay]

I know my parents church, the elders give communion to the shut in's, they take what was left on the altar that had already been blessed by the pastor

I just left a church, they ended up hiring a layman part time, not sure if they are still going to look for a pastor or not. I hadn't been there in about 4 or 5 months. y'all know the story of how he went through the Delto program. I feel better taking it from a pastor, he's had lots more schooling and understanding than someone that took that delto program.

 

[DaRev]

The one who is called and ordained with the Christ given authority to administer the sacrament should be the one who administers the Sacrament. While lay men may assist, it should only be the pastor who distributes the body of Christ because this is the act of admission to the table. As the "steward of the mysteries" the pastor is responsible for withholding the sacrament from those he knows are unworthy to receive it to their benefit. We are the ones who must stand before God on the Last Day and give an account. A layman should not want that responsibility. He really doesn't have the Christ given authority to do that anyway.

As for giving "preconsecrated" elements to shut-ins, unless the sacrament is administered in it's entirety within the context of the Mass (including the reciting of the Verba) there is no sacrament. While we do not know whether or not the body and blood of Christ are still present after the Mass (the reason we handle the consecrated elements reverently, but there is no guarantee that the body and blood are truly present there), we certainly do know that they are not present outside of the administration of the sacrament within the context of the Mass. Where the Mass is not present, the body and blood of the Lord are not present. It is very likely that those shut-ins receiving "preconsecrated" elements are simply eating and drinking mere bread and wine and are not receiving any spiritual benefit whatsoever.

It breaks my heart that so many clergy in the LCMS are bagging the Confessions of the Church. I truly fear for the future of a unified LCMS. Our days are numbered, I'm afraid.

 

[TCat]

Rev, so the LCMS suggests that clergy must "do something" in order for the means of grace to become such??? It is not God working but something clergy must do in order for the sacrement to be valid???

So those shut ins, those who in prison are not able to recieve God's grace thru communion? Wow, how sad that those in true need are unable to recieve His grace.

Personally I think the last time a pastor actually gave me communion was at the PLI thing at my church last summer. Otherwise I have recieved it from our deacons and elders. Hmmm, guess it is not all that important afterall.

 

[filosofer]

No, the pastor does not make it valid. However, God has also set forth the pastoral office to publicly in behalf of the congregation to preach/teach and administer the sacraments. It is not a matter of validity but of good order that God desires in the church.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

While there is no Scriptural authority for this thought; I believe St. Augustine wrote that if someone desires to receive the sacrament, they have, by their desire already received the benefits of the sacrament. Since we receive God's grace through faith, I believe that there is some merit to St. Augie's train of thought.

Mark

 

[DaRev]

Rev, so the LCMS suggests that clergy must "do something" in order for the means of grace to become such??? It is not God working but something clergy must do in order for the sacrement to be valid???

Where did I say that? I don't recall ever saying anything of the sort. You have a tendency to put words in places where they aren't.

Does not God work through means (the proclaimed word), as the Scriptures say? Or does your pastor not believe that?

So those shut ins, those who in prison are not able to recieve God's grace thru communion? Wow, how sad that those in true need are unable to recieve His grace.

They certainly are able to receive God's grace through communion, when it is administered according to Christ's institution, as the Lutheran Confessions state. Does your pastor not believe that, either?

Personally I think the last time a pastor actually gave me communion was at the PLI thing at my church last summer. Otherwise I have recieved it from our deacons and elders. Hmmm, guess it is not all that important afterall.

This is one of the main problems in the LCMS. Too many rogue pastors decide to do things outside of the Scriptural and Confessional basis that they were instructed in at seminary. I can understand that attitude from a DELTO student since they are uninstructed, but an ordained pastor should know better.

 

[LutherNut]

While there is no Scriptural authority for this thought; I believe St. Augustine wrote that if someone desires to receive the sacrament, they have, by their desire already received the benefits of the sacrament. Since we receive God's grace through faith, I believe that there is some merit to St. Augie's train of thought.

Mark

But one should never rest on their "desire to receive the sacrament" alone, for if they do, they are a hypocrite.

 

[TCat]

Does not God work through means (the proclaimed word), as the Scriptures say? Or does your pastor not believe that?

Yes, the Scriptures state that God works through His means of Grace, I was just wondering what the pastor has to do with making into the means by which God works? I am not knocking it, just want clarification.


They certainly are able to receive God's grace through communion, when it is administered according to Christ's institution, as the Lutheran Confessions state. Does your pastor not believe that, either?

What is Christ's insititution? Where does it state Biblically that only an ordained pastor is qualified to administer the sacraments? And that the sacraments must be given within a church service? (Preferrably the Devine Service with a full litergy)

This is one of the main problems in the LCMS. Too many rogue pastors decide to do things outside of the Scriptural and Confessional basis that they were instructed in at seminary. I can understand that attitude from a DELTO student since they are uninstructed, but an ordained pastor should know better.

I don't mean to put words in or cause disruption, I simply want to know what is Biblical Truth.

 

[TCat]

Forget it, I should not have started this thread. I do know what the Bible says and don't need any more than that. The Word alone, Grace alone, Faith alone.

 

[DaRev]

Yes, the Scriptures state that God works through His means of Grace, I was just wondering what the pastor has to do with making into the means by which God works? I am not knocking it, just want clarification.

There are several places in the Scriptures that speak of the pastoral office and the authority it has to speak in the stead and by the command of Christ. (I don't have time to hunt, copy, and paste them all here.) We need to remember that it is His word that is spoken, not the pastor's. The pastor is merely the one who has the authority to speak for Christ in the public worship. It is within the context of the public worship (Divine Service or Mass) that the pastor does this. It is not the pastor's words or actions that qualify the sacrament, but the words and works of Christ which the pastor, the one called and ordained with the authority to do such, is speaking and doing in His stead. The pastoral office was created by Christ to carry out these functions.

What is Christ's insititution? Where does it state Biblically that only an ordained pastor is qualified to administer the sacraments? And that the sacraments must be given within a church service? (Preferrably the Devine Service with a full litergy)

See response above.

Forget it, I should not have started this thread. I do know what the Bible says and don't need any more than that. The Word alone, Grace alone, Faith alone.

If you know what it says then you should know these answers already.

 

[cerette]

Forget it, I should not have started this thread. I do know what the Bible says and don't need any more than that. The Word alone, Grace alone, Faith alone.

I think you asked an important question, there are so many misunderstandings about this matter.

 

[cerette]

That's what the RCC teaches, but Scripture does not. It's the "Verbum Domini", the words of our Lord that consecrate the bread and wine. It has nothing to do with us, our faith, or how faithful the Pastor is. It is our Lord's own words only.

Our confessions tell us that (a paraphrase) "word and Sacrament remain efficacious even when administered by evil men".

The pastoral office is certainly Biblical.

Our confessions also indicate that the sacraments should be administered by a Pastor for the sake of uniformity and good order.

Hope this helps.

Mark

Well said!

 

[filosofer]

I don't mean to put words in or cause disruption, I simply want to know what is Biblical Truth.

Your question is legitimate and needed to be asked.

Even more, your desire "to know what is Biblical truth" is very much needed in our churches today. We need millions with that same desire!

BTW, whenever you seek the truth, there will be disruption and disagreement. We cannot prevent that; we should expect that.

 

[TCat]

BTW, whenever you seek the truth, there will be disruption and disagreement.

I have come to expect that, especailly when DaRev replies to anything I post which is why I do not post here much.

 

[DaRev]

I have come to expect that, especailly when DaRev replies to anything I post which is why I do not post here much.

Perhaps if you weren't so sarcastic in your tone...

I don't itch ears. Part of my calling is to correct error when it's present. Some simply don't like to hear the truth.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

But one should never rest on their "desire to receive the sacrament" alone, for if they do, they are a hypocrite.

You are so right!