common trinities and what we can do about them

[maybenotcrazy]

I know this borders on philosophy but I thought I'd post it here.
The trinity is one of the most difficult concepts to believe in all christianity and for good reason. I personally don't blame many others for not believing in it though I wish they did. What makes it so difficult? Well that's obvious 3 persons of the godhead making one divinity. but is the trinity really so unnatural? The first idea I wanted to put out there is that it is akin in many ways to the concept of a relationship. One relationship 3 entities. The concept of the relationship, the entities related or in causality, the antecedent and consequent. So in the relationship of size, which is always a relationship or a trinity you have two entities being compared at a time and the concept in comparison. In causality you have the entity that is changing (does not have to be physically one thing but a system works) a before and after state. Or really you have a duality of trinities a before after + causality trinity. In my limited view of physics you need a a space( or at least an existential space- kind of like for a word you need a language), time( generally a position in a second 1 dimensional space) and object (can be aphysical) to have existence, a relationship as well! A noun, which is most akin to the trinity of God as far as I can think consists of an object to be named, a name, and a mental representation. Now forgive me if I'm wrong but this almost proves that for a concept to exist you need a mind, a word/symbol and an entity to be named. Somehow, beyond my comprehension, I think that the trinity may be an existential relationship that God must hold in order to exist. It may just be due to his loving nature that this relationship must hold. whatever it is due to it is not something I will attempt to prove because no one not one has succeeded and I'm not that smart.

 

[AV1611VET]

It may just be due to his loving nature that this relationship must hold. whatever it is due to it is not something I will attempt to prove because no one not one has succeeded and I'm not that smart.

I'm not that smart, either.

I tell them that God can violate the principle of Non-contradiction.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Also, since "trinity" is a misleading term anyway ("triunity" is closer), I find it better to use the term God, Himself uses:

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[maybenotcrazy]

I'm not that smart, either.

I tell them that God can violate the principle of Non-contradiction.Also, since "trinity" is a misleading term anyway ("triunity" is closer), I find it better to use the term God, Himself uses:

Are you being serious now? I can't tell. Nevermind, you're being just as facetious as ever. What do you think your jokes will accomplish? Godhead is not a funny word nor is it any more clarifying than any other. One thing that astounds me is that some people still haven't figured you out. As far as noncontradiction let us remember the example of the wave-particle duality- a so-called fundamental principle of nature.

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you being serious now? I can't tell.

Very serious.

Nevermind, you're being just as facetious as ever. What do you think your jokes will accomplish?

Am I?

Was Jesus both 100% man and 100% God?

Can you answer this w/o violating the Law of Non-contradiction?

Godhead is not a funny word nor is it any more clarifying than any other.

But it's the word that God chose to use, and as I said, if they can't understand "Trinity" (and who can?), then what's wrong with "Godhead"?

One thing that astounds me is that some people still haven't figured you out.

I'm too simple --- that's what is confusing them.

I pull the rug out from underneath their feet by refusing to talk science.

That disarms them, and they get confused.

As I have said about myself more than once:

Take the Bible away from me, and I'm disarmed and disoriented.


Take their [McGraw-Hill] bible from them, they're the same way.

As far as noncontradiction let us remember the example of the wave-particle duality- a so-called fundamental principle of nature.

Some things just seem to violate the norm, don't they?

• 7/7 = 1
• 5/5 = 1
• 3/3 = 1
• 100%/100% = 1 (not 1%, by the way)
• car/car = 1
• 0/0 = ?

 

[maybenotcrazy]

Alright. Sometimes I think from what you write you are trying to make religion look silly. Like the post about jesus and science. When you bring in the possibility that he is an alien you kind of kill yourself there. But I get you. You need faith because even logic won't work to disprove that possibility. So. I need faith though to believe you truly are religious and not mocking and I'm not sure I have enough because your posts are extremely confusing and oftentimes harm the cause of God more than help. I'll admit mine do that too.
Anyway, go on do what you do. I won't bother you.

 

[AV1611VET]

Anyway, go on do what you do. I won't bother you.

I will, thank you ---

In the meantime, feel free to answer this:

Was Jesus both 100% man and 100% God?

Can you answer this w/o violating the Law of Non-contradiction?

 

[maybenotcrazy]

no you can't you are absolutely right. There are so many things in this world that cannot be explained logically just because religion can't be doesn't mean it is tainted any more than euclidean geometry. Just think of the parallel postulate. I am not smart enough to answer this but some people think it might be wrong. What is a point? What is a line? They don't exist. But so many good things come out of it. Now religion works pretty similarly to science in another way. Falsehoods and heresies can come out of applying logic to it. Science can take logic to very distant places from where knowledge lies and do the same. The difference is religion is not meant to be logical. Now I ask you when you say you are an embedded age creationist do you mean that god created everything and also created a false past behind it and allowed a future to exist? That is kind of what I believe. I also believe the flood was in that sense that I said it (though you may not mean it that way) the opposite of an embedded age, a deleted age or hidden age. What is your view?

 

[AV1611VET]

Now I ask you when you say you are an embedded age creationist do you mean that god created everything and also created a false past behind it and allowed a future to exist?

No --- that is called Omphalism --- I'm Embedded Age.

• Omphalism = embedded history
• Embedded Age = maturity w/o history

In other words, God created this earth with age embedded in it.

It has only gone around the sun some 6100 times, but even before it moved one inch in its first orbit, it was 4.57 billion years old.

• Physical Age = 4.57 billion years
• Existential Age = 6100 years

That is kind of what I believe. I also believe the flood was in that sense that I said it (though you may not mean it that way) the opposite of an embedded age, a deleted age or hidden age. What is your view?

God also suspended age by suspending the Laws of Thermodynamics ---

And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

 

[maybenotcrazy]

No --- that is called Omphalism --- I'm Embedded Age.

• Omphalism = embedded history
• Embedded Age = maturity w/o history

In other words, God created this earth with age embedded in it.

It has only gone around the sun some 6100 times, but even before it moved one inch in its first orbit, it was 4.57 billion years old.

• Physical Age = 4.57 billion years
• Existential Age = 6100 years

God also suspended age by suspending the Laws of Thermodynamics ---

noncontradiction is just being smashed to the ground today is it not?

That passage from deuteronomy is great. I will use it next time I hear someone say god is constrained by physical law although there are numerous other examples in the bible (and in my life too)

 

[ArnautDaniel]

God also suspended age by suspending the Laws of Thermodynamics ---

You mean he suspended chemistry and all chemical reactions stopped running?

 

[AV1611VET]

You mean he suspended chemistry and all chemical reactions stopped running?

I'd say on their shoes it did --- wouldn't you?

 

[ArnautDaniel]

I'd say on their shoes it did --- wouldn't you?

No, because you need chemical reactions to proceed to be alive.

If chemistry stopped due to thermodynamics being suspended, everything would be suspended.

 

[Hespera]

No, because you need chemical reactions to proceed to be alive.

If chemistry stopped due to thermodynamics being suspended, everything would be suspended.

Hanging out in these forums has been quite an education to me.

There really are people who can make things up and talk themselves into believing it!

 

[tansy]

No, because you need chemical reactions to proceed to be alive.

If chemistry stopped due to thermodynamics being suspended, everything would be suspended.

Just tentatively...wouldn't God be capable of suspending thermodynamics just for the shoes, but everything else being as normal?

 

[ArnautDaniel]

Just tentatively...wouldn't God be capable of suspending thermodynamics just for the shoes, but everything else being as normal?

No.

You can't just suspend one little bit of physics, it all ties together.

You would have to say all the laws of physics were suspended.

 

[tansy]

No.

You can't just suspend one little bit of physics, it all ties together.

You would have to say all the laws of physics were suspended.

Ok then.....supposing God didn't suspend the laws of physics, but simply kepy renewing the sandals sort of nano secomd by nanosecond? After all, if He can create the universe, surely He' able to do that?

 

[maybenotcrazy]

No.

You can't just suspend one little bit of physics, it all ties together.

You would have to say all the laws of physics were suspended.

None of us can but can God? That is the question. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is a probability law. The probability of something is a manmade concept. God allowed the probability of non-decay to be 1. After all it is possible that something improbable can happen. Even the re-joining of broken glass has a probability.
And no. The second law of thermodynamics is not essential to nature, just a result. It is a limit on useful work that can be done by a heat engine provided every step is reversible (done at equilibrium, which is impossible) that said- in fact God did stop the 2nd law of thermodynamics. After all, God parted the Red Sea why not? Not only that. The second law of thermodynamics doesn't have any bearing on classical physics theoretically. Nor does it have a theoretical effect on quantum. these things have to be added in. Hence statistical mechanics. If I recall, the carnot engine is the type of device in which the 2nd law was theorized. It is a theoretical engine of 4 strokes. It shows that the greater the temperature difference between the input and output, the more efficient the engine becomes to the point of infinity. It is clear that such a law is a result of mechanics and the first law. Not a fundamental law. The entropy change in a closed, reversible cycle is zero it says in all other situations, nonzero. God may have done all sorts of things to shield entropy he may have ceased the energy levels of the atoms to exist, he may have made the shoes absolute zero and yet bar heat transfer between them and elsewhere, it could be any thing .

 

[ArnautDaniel]

Ok then.....supposing God didn't suspend the laws of physics, but simply kepy renewing the sandals sort of nano secomd by nanosecond? After all, if He can create the universe, surely He' able to do that?

And why exactly would God do this?

To mess with people?

If God messes with people you've got some pretty big theological problems...like he might be messing with you about the whole salvation thing.

What is this if not God being a liar?

 

[ArnautDaniel]

None of us can but can God? That is the question. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is a probability law. The probability of something is a manmade concept. God allowed the probability of non-decay to be 1. After all it is possible that something improbable can happen. Even the re-joining of broken glass has a probability.

Like I said, and you just said, if you want to violate the 2nd law, you have to retool the underlying physics.

And no. The second law of thermodynamics is not essential to nature, just a result. It is a limit on useful work that can be done by a heat engine provided every step is reversible (done at equilibrium, which is impossible) that said- in fact God did stop the 2nd law of thermodynamics. After all, God parted the Red Sea why not? Not only that. The second law of thermodynamics doesn't have any bearing on classical physics theoretically. Nor does it have a theoretical effect on quantum. these things have to be added in. Hence statistical mechanics. If I recall, the carnot engine is the type of device in which the 2nd law was theorized. It is a theoretical engine of 4 strokes. It shows that the greater the temperature difference between the input and output, the more efficient the engine becomes to the point of infinity. It is clear that such a law is a result of mechanics and the first law. Not a fundamental law. The entropy change in a closed, reversible cycle is zero it says in all other situations, nonzero. God may have done all sorts of things to shield entropy he may have ceased the energy levels of the atoms to exist, he may have made the shoes absolute zero and yet bar heat transfer between them and elsewhere, it could be any thing .

You should consider studying chemistry.

This all goes far beyond heat engines.

 

[tansy]

And why exactly would God do this?

To mess with people?

If God messes with people you've got some pretty big theological problems...like he might be messing with you about the whole salvation thing.

What is this if not God being a liar?

No, it doesnt make God a liar...it just shows how He is able to take care of people.
I don't find that he messes with people.