Common misconceptions

ruminatingpresent participle of ru·mi·nate (Verb)
1. Think deeply about something: "we sat ruminating on the nature of existence".
2. (of a ruminant) Chew the cud.

visionary said:

ruminatingpresent participle of ru·mi·nate (Verb)
1. Think deeply about something: "we sat ruminating on the nature of existence".
2. (of a ruminant) Chew the cud.

Click to expand...

I see you got the joke. I love homonyms.

ContraMundum said:

How can you really tell if an animal is ruminating? The look on its face? Resting its chin on its hoof until it has a "eureka!" moment?

Click to expand...

I usually look for a little light above its head, sometimes looks like a lightbulb (which is very helpful).

yedida said:

I usually look for a little light above its head, sometimes looks like a lightbulb (which is very helpful).

Click to expand...

I was just thinking that I once saw a cow have an idea. It walked straight into an electric fence, flinched ever so slightly and walked away. It did it again a few minutes later. Poor thing probably became a burger.

They don't really ruminate for long, do they?

Born and raised on the farm, I can testify to the fact that all animals have their own individual personality and intelligence level. They do remember, some better than others, the same as with us humans. Granted cows have the intelligent level of a three year old...

visionary said:

Born and raised on the farm, I can testify to the fact that all animals have their own individual personality and intelligence level. They do remember, some better than others, the same as with us humans. Granted cows have the intelligent level of a three year old...

Click to expand...

A 3yr old? That's better than some people I know....

yedida said:

A 3yr old? That's better than some people I know....

Click to expand...

I know.. scary isn't it?

I've seen one of my cats ruminate before she takes off after the other one. That's when I yell Baghera - don't even think about it!!

Genesis 22:9-12
Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 12 He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

​

Observations:

1. Boyd says that God did not know if Abraham would remain faithful and that the words "now I know" are disingenuous if this were not so. The test would be a charade if God already knew the outcome.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily. I often believe something to be true but want verification / confirmation before I state I KNOW it to be true.

INTJ-F said:

Not necessarily. I often believe something to be true but want verification / confirmation before I state I KNOW it to be true.
[/color][/font][/size]

Click to expand...

True. Then again, if wanting verification/confirmation, then by default one shows to a certain degree that they really don't know fully. If they were fully confident, they would simply about saying that they know something is true and not worry about the rest.

And if God wishes to keep knowledge of something from Himself so that HE Can experienced life with humanity--just as Christ did later--why would he not be allowed to do so? To say that God cannot do something would seem to make Him less of "God"...and if the Lord said he'd allow himself to be surprised, He's more than able to do so.

INTJ-F said:

Maybe God had reasons for designing the earth and man even though He knew man would fall. This is something I doubt we can know for sure until we reach eternity and gain understanding

Click to expand...

I think that what the Lord did in creation does make sense if understanding how to view the world. ..and much of how one views the world may be based more on what camp that they associate with/come from.


There are many verses supporting the concept of God ordaining things. In line with the concept of the bird and the sparrow, as seen in Luke 12, that goes in line with how a GUIDING Hand is always present by the very definition of who God is—-for all things in existence will always need the GRACE/POWER of God to do anything of worth—just as its by His Grace that all men have rain….for in his Providential Grace, He shows grace/care for all his creatures…allowing others to survive by sending rain on the JUST and the Unjust (Matthew 5:45)….


This is more sin line with the theological concept known as Panentheism.







Panentheism is the idea that the entire universe is part of God, But God is greater that the universe. God is omnipresent and transcendent – that is, God contains the entire cosmos but the entire cosmos does not and cannot contain God. He is omnipresent because his uncreated energies permeate all Creation, generating and sustaining it. And He is transcendent because his uncreated essence is inaccessible to us – it is wholly beyond Creation.

Kinda like my cells and molecules and blood and other things in my body are part of myself, but I am much greater than those…and I cannot be seen in them….yet I am omnipresent through them, as I created them at my conception and sustain them throughout my life. God transcends creation as I transcend my body. Intelligence is everywhere. Certain groups within Judaism actually hold to the view of Panentheism. In example, one should consider the reality of what often occurs within the system of Jewish thought known as Hasidim. For Hasidic Jews actually believe God is in everything. Panentheism, popular in certain Chasidic circles, seems more than relevant if/when understanding God to be both within all existence and transcendent beyond all being. I personally see no issue with supporting Biblical Panentheism and the concept of God being outside of the world and yet connected deeply to it/all within it. More of this was discussed elsewhere as seen here and here....and as mentioned there, I'm much more in line with that specific camp (i.e. Messianic Judaism via Hasidic thought) than anything else. For more info, one can go online/look up 2 other articles under the names of "The Rosh Pina Project (an alternative look at Messianic Jews ) - Neo-Hasidism in Messianic Judaism" () or Radical Judaism – Rethinking God and Tradition--- A vision of God for the twenty-first century | The Jewish Chronicle" ().

One can also investigate Origins of Hasidism & Russian Orthodox Christianity >> The Rosh Pina Project (an alternative look at Messianic Jews )y. As it concerns my own views on the respecting of nature within Judaic thought, one can go here to get more..and to a thread I made entitled Green Jews" and Environmental Stewardship in Messianic Judaism





On God experiencing the world, its often seen best in the concept of the INCARNATION–where the Lord stepped into HISTORY itself even though He was outside of TIME…..and experienced life as all of us do, grieving and growing ( Luke 2:39-40, Luke 2:51-52, Hebrews 2:17, Hebrews 4:14-16, Hebrews 5:7-10, etc )—and yet, by God’s Grand Design that we’ll never know, he desired for Christ to die and used men to do so ….as Christ was not a victim of circumstances…..and his death wasn’t the result of circumstances, caprice, chance, fortune or luck. It was all a matter of the Lord being in control.(Acts 4:23-27, Acts 2:22-24, John 11:49-51, etc)/



Its the entire dynamic of Free Will and Sovereignty—or Permissive Will vs Secret Will…and Panentheism gives a good way of reconciling things.


Panentheism ALSO deals with how all there is not only emanates from God..but is experienced by Him as well. Its the idea that one’s not to worship an animal or a tree since it’s not the creator–but on the same token, as Chasidism ascribes to, the animal being abused is felt deeply by the Lord. He hurts with it as much as it does since that creation is directly connected to Him (As its being sustained by Him) and consequently He can feel it—just as he does with all suffering and pain in the world whenever injustice occurs.

Its why Christ said that even the sparrows do not fall outside of God’s care—as well as why He made clear that even the Ravens look to God for food ( Psalm 104:18-22, Psalm 147:8-10, Matthew 6:25-27, Luke 12:23-25 etc )

This is why many Panentheist have noted that Paul made a point in Romans to discuss how its not just humankind that’s redeemed…but all of creation as well, described as “groaning” and “suffering” rather than being indifferent to it all. The Eastern Fathers and some medievals have written profoundly on the cosmic dimensions of the Incarnation and Redemption (as did St. Paul).

Classical theism views sin and the Fall as distinct from the basic structure of the world and the culmination of the kingdom of God as a gracious undertaking that is not a mere outcome of a natural process. Panentheism, however, typically views creation and the Fall as part of the cosmic process as are redemption and consummation.

Christian panentheists view the earthly existence of Jesus Christ as either the central cause of the outcome of the process or a primary symbol or example of the process. Each approach is at odds with classical theism. With Biblical Panentheism I tend to lean more so toward what’s known as weak panentheism or soteriological panentheism. That is more similar to the position found in Eastern Orthodox Christianity (As well as Eastern Christianity in general). For in that view, God is manifest in redeemed nature and panentheistic metaphors are used in an eschatological sense, a future expectation when all redeemed nature is reconciled with God (1 Cor 15:28).

Ultimate salvation is viewed in a Johannine fashion, as participating in the Divine community of the Trinity (John 14:20) and abiding in Gods love as God himself is love in that He is the eternal community between Father, Son and Holy Spirit (1 John 4:16). If aware of the Eastern Orthodox concept known as Theosis, that may aid in helping things make more sense..



When understanding the theological framework of Panentheism as God being the system of systems, all creation and processes being within God, things can come together. You & all of creation exist within God. As for evil, that probably falls in under panentheism’s understanding & of the whole creation and the sustaining of it as an act of Kenosis (self-emptying for those unfamiliar with the term, famous from Philippians 2:7 where Christ is described taking the form of a servant by emptying himself) for God. For all of creation/ its sustaining is understood as a continuous act of suffering love, where God takes the suffering of this world upon Himself.


Noticeably, this goes counter to the more traditional understanding of the impassibility of God the Father and inability to hurt Him. The panentheistic model seems to be the more biblical of all options since God certainly is portrayed as one who is affected by the state of his creation in the scripture….and in my view, it increases the GLORY of God’s redeemption since in Christ (Colossians 1-2), that redeemption has begun to occur over all creation and the suffering the Lord has had to endure will eventually come to a Glorious end.


Within the world of Messianic Judaism, one of the best places to research for an understanding of Panentheism is with others who have leanings more so toward Chasidism rather than toward other sides that hold to a more classical theism mindset. Within the system of Jewish thought known as Hasidim, Hasidic Jews actually believe God is in everything. Panentheism, popular in certain Chasidic circles, seems more than relevant if/when understanding God to be both within all existence and transcendent beyond all being. When all life as we know it is over, God will remain, the ultimate One, alone.

Yet in the here and now “every creature and every form of life is a garbing of the divine presence”. This has immediate moral implications….for the way in which we treat them and relate to them is the ultimate testing ground of where we stand. This is significant in light of many many of the endeavors others get involved in to aid our planent (i.e. global warming, recycling, sustainable development, etc ) cannot be sustained without having a religious basis for such..


There is not one physical location in this universe where we can hide from the presence of God. As King David stated, “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell [the grave], behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there Your hand shall lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me” (Psalm 139:7–10).


Through His Spirit, God’s reach extends to every nook and cranny of the universe, and there is—as David wrote—no place to flee from His presence. Others may say “But if God is everywhere, does that mean that there’s nothing seperate from who He Is”. On that, one can attempt illustrating it through the concept of water (although physical analogies can never fully define God).

If God is like water…the Ocean in which we are but a drop…then when He made all things to swim in Him, its logical to understand that all things distinct in the Ocean are not the OCEAN itself. They’re simply surrounded by it. …as the water surrounds/affects the rocks, the plants, the fish and everything else inside


However, all of that’s said to indicate that just because God sustains/upholds all of existence DOES NOT mean that every action within existence is ordained by God…


We’re not naturalists, Bro, who deny the miraculous in the name of science…nor do we deny creation, as Naturalists do, holding that the universe is ultimately self-explanatory. As many Christians who were scientists have noted, life is well designed…and yet we know that there is an eternal/self-existent and personal God who created and upholds the universe while also being distinct from it (Genesis 1:1, John 1:1, Col 1:16, etc).


But we also understand that God does not dictate all of the actions that men and nature itself promotes—-just as it was with Christ who was killed by Sinful men, despite the fact that God held them responsible for their actions while also making clear that He desired for Christ to die/weaved it in.

Panentheism does not begin soteriologically with God’s special presence to some but with the universal presence to all, moving from thence toward the theories of special presence. It seeks to give the right perspective & focus in the face of evil. For instead of pulling away from those things that do not now manifest the nature of God fully, panentheism suggests the picture of transforming and healing them, as a healthy body might heal itself from an injury.

In this line of thought, the rapist still is being sustained by the Lord’s power even though God may not approve of His actions/decide to dwell with him…with God’s heart being to see the rapists REDEEMED and trusting in Him since even the Rapists was made in the image of God/given as aspect of the Divine….and the message of repentence/forgiveness and grace is where that process of healing can begin for the rapist, the murderer or any other aspect where decline has begun.


Even though in some ways He chooses to be disconnected from it, he is still connected to it intimately. The same goes for what was noted earlier when it comes to decline in the natural world, especially in cases where the natural world has been raped. Panentheism would suggest that God desires for healing to occur rather than the world to be abandoned altogether/demolished….and thus, He keeps it all going so that the chance for healing/redeemption may occur.

INTJ-F said:

I've done some things I knew would fail in order to observe (and to learn) Maybe God had reasons for designing the earth and man even though He knew man would fall. This is something I doubt we can know for sure until we reach eternity and gain understanding. It's interesting to discuss different viewpoints on it though.

Easy G (G²);57488677 said:

We’re not naturalists, Bro, who deny the miraculous in the name of science…nor do we deny creation, as Naturalists do, holding that the universe is ultimately self-explanatory. As many Christians who were scientists have noted, life is well designed…and yet we know that there is an eternal/self-existent and personal God who created and upholds the universe while also being distinct from it (Genesis 1:1, John 1:1, Col 1:16, etc).


But we also understand that God does not dictate all of the actions that men and nature itself promotes—-just as it was with Christ who was killed by Sinful men, despite the fact that God held them responsible for their actions while also making clear that He desired for Christ to die/weaved it in.
Even though in some ways He chooses to be disconnected from it, he is still connected to it intimately. The same goes for what was noted earlier when it comes to decline in the natural world, especially in cases where the natural world has been raped. Panentheism would suggest that God desires for healing to occur rather than the world to be abandoned altogether/demolished….and thus, He keeps it all going so that the chance for healing/redeemption may occur.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

What was noted previously goes in line with the analogy I sought to bring up earlier when it came to Panentheism being like the molecules/atoms and cells within your own bodily system. If an infection occurs within the body, the Immune System does not seperate itself from it. Rather, it gets intimately involved in it/address it—with the rest of your bodily functions still having to continue. Your body may end up having cells that become infected, though it may also go into the route of comfortably excising them like a virus or cancer…while also trying to keep the body in tact.


The church’s calling is to embody the love of God in and for the world, as we are a part of the ways in which God works to heal the body (i.e. the World in its corruption). Even when there’s decline in the world that God contains, God feels it all…grieves over it….but still has all things in control.

I’m reminded of others what the Word says on times where others were infected and God had to deal with it:
In the situations with Saul and the Children, we see how a God that transcends all of reality has indeed chosen to limit His activity/presence in MANY places. The OT is full of numerous examples where the Lord departed from His people/left them to themselves. Again, we must a note that although God is omnipresent through His Spirit, we can become separated from Him.

In fact, we are warned, “your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear” (Isaiah 59:2). Jesus Christ experienced this horrible separation during His crucifixion, when on our behalf He took upon Himself the full penalty of our sins (cf. Mark 15:34; Isaiah 53:4–5).

Part of me is reminded of the issue of what took place within the very Garden of Eden in Genesis 3…..for once man chose to disobey God by eating the Fruit of the Tree of Knowing Good/Evil, things were SET in motion.


Yet God did not lose complete control—as His sovereignty would not allow it….nor was it the case that He ever gave man 100% control over all aspects in the physical realm. Adam was made to rule/have stewardship….and it was never equal sovereignty, for if it were, it wouldn’t have been the case God could have exerted the authority to repulse Adam from the garden. God was over Adam/His employer—-just as the Devil in His throne room/in God’s presence are subservient to Him, and submit to His authority ( Job 2, Revelation 12:7 , 1 Kings 22:19, etc)


Again, God had not abandoned Adam fully—nor could he EVER do so without harming his own Creation..just as it is for all men (saved/unsaved today). For as mentioned before on God’s Nature (AND on church concepts like Panentheism), its established in scripture that Christ in the scriptures is portrayed as the INSTRUMENT of creation, “sustaining all things by His powerful word”, (Colosians 1:16-7, John 1:3, Hebrews 1:3)—and whom by immanence is fully present in even the smallest atom….with all things connected to Him for their own survival. And since it requires God’s very prescence/connection and energies for any of mankind to even live on, God could not simply LEAVE ADAM completely lest Adam simply dropped dead on the spot.


Thus, after cursing man kind (Genesis 3), God sought him out to redeem him..providing the means for Adam to restore himself on some level to the rightstanding he had before the fall so there could be some kind of fellowship with the Lord (via sacrifices/looking in faith unto the Promised Messiah who’d permantely destroy sin rather than “cover” it alone). Though it was not the best, it’d do for the time…until things could be brought back to how the Lord desired in His original intentions for mankind/the Spirit of God dwelling intimately with men.


Nevertheless, it still was sad for Adam since he was seperated nonetheless from the Lord on some level was the case for Adam…for as Genesis 1-3 make clear, Adam fell into disfavor and suffered a curse of death/the effects of a sinful/empty life outside of the Lord (Romans 3, Romans 5-8, I Corinthians 15, etc)—as that’s the reality of what spiritual death is……for its being forsaken/experiencing SEPERATION from the Full Power of the Holy Spirit.


Just as the body may heal itself when it comes to wounds being made, it seems that the infection of sin was contained to a degree when it came to the actions done by the Lord. God realized the level of control he had given his creation/the significance of ensuring that the scope of man’s error was limited by kicking them Out of the Garden…for Adam would have lived forever if he ate of the tree of life, as it seems this tree will sustain life in the kingdom of God and heal all who eat of it ( Genesis 3:22-23 )

What happened with Adam could be said to be in the same sense as what happened to Christ where God didn’t want something to happen and yet in a sense—as it suited His purposes—he allowed it to happen.

For one must wonder that even in Paradise, man was with perfect communion with the Lord and yet to a degree, He may’ve been unable to see the Lord as He was fully when it comes to love since the ultimate expression of love is seen in being able to give up one’s life for another, John 15:12-14, 1 John 3:15-17, etc).

One cannot deny that Adam’s choice to sin was within the sovereign plan of God—where it was allowed and the Lord was more than prepared for it, even though the effects of it grieved Him significantly, as seen in Gen 6:6 where the Lord was greatly saddened at the turn-out of man.

However, it doesn’t seem complete to say that Adam sinned because God ordained him to sin…as in essence, that’s akin to saying that if a man rapes a child/sins just like Adam, man is not the FIRST cause of his actions or choices. IMHO, God is the First cause of ALL, and God created man (in His own image a moral agent), consequently meaning that man is the first cause of his own actions and choices.

INTJ-F said:

As a INTJ, I ALWAYS ask questions of God. Some of the concepts I think of I never reveal to anyone because they could easily become false doctrines.
.

Click to expand...

Don't gotta tell me that, as I am an ENTP (. As said in the link ) and I love asking questions/pondering on how things could possibly be or should be. Its always a fun thing for me to always ask questions of God as well...and I have noticed that on some things, its best to keep them to oneself rather than going to others/sharing if aware of how it can be taken...though some things, when I feel release from the Lord to give it up, I do share. For sometimes, being "under-cover" with truth isn't beneficial and people will always take something the wrong way if they wish to. Some things, IMHO, are a matter of letting the chips fall where they may...

Yeshua did have some knowledge - He foretold of His death - only His disciples didn't hear what He said.

Click to expand...

If you mean "didn't hear what He said" in the sense that they really weren't listening fully to his thoughts the way that He was conveying it, I can agree. For there are many times when it seems that you have to tell people that what they heard was not the same thing as what you said clearly. They may be listening through filters...and Jesus did go out of his way repeatedly to alert his disciples to the fact that He was going to be crucified. Its one of the reasons why he often rebuked them/called them "slow to believe"---and at other times, he told them that what He was telling them they would understand more fully later..

It will be interesting to see why we went through some of the stuff we did. I suspect some of those we trusted and were betrayed by will be revealed to have been nephillim and we will see them for what they really were - obstacles, roadblocks, and stumbling stones for our faith. There will be eyes opened more than we know at present

Click to expand...

It should be a trip, indeed.

Yeshua did have some knowledge - He foretold of His death - only His disciples didn't hear what He said.
If you mean "didn't hear what He said" in the sense that they really weren't listening fully to his thoughts the way that He was conveying it, I can agree.

Click to expand...

That's what I thought I clearly said

INTJ-F said:

That's what I thought I clearly said

Click to expand...

My bad, as it seemed that perhaps your use of "didn't hear what He said" was spoken within the sense that they couldn't hear what Yeshua was saying because he was talking too low----similar to Matthew 26:20-26 when Judas asked "Surely Not I, Lord" when Jesus said one of them would betray Him and Jesus said "Yes, it is you.."....but the others were not aware of it because they probably didn't hear Jesus say it loudly to Judas (lest they beat him up that moment)

LittleLambofJesus said:

I hear rattlesnake meat is quite tasty

http://www.christianforums.com/t7536503-2/#post57458873
snake handling...

Delicious Rattlesnake Recipes

Click to expand...

Wow....

Though I've heard of others who eat rattle snake, I've never really seen it in how its eaten. Though it may taste good, I don't know if I'd ever eat it...

ContraMundum said:

Misconceptions about my faith:

- We don't live according to the moral law, and just do whatever we want.

- You have to throw away all of your Jewish heritage to be Christian,

- You don't keep or respect Jewish heritage unless you belong to a Messianic congregation. That is the only way.

- There is no sign of the OT in Christianity, it has only pagan roots.

All woefully wrong.

Click to expand...

On point