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Common ground Creationists and Atheists "can" agree with - without too much effort

childeye 2

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The problem is that various stories of the Bible have been shown to be not true if one interprets the Bible literally. I was being generous when I said that todays interpretation of "faith" may not be correct.
Okay. But you originally used the term 'mistranslated' rather than 'misinterpreted' and that would explain why there is a misunderstanding.

Since it is your claim it is up to you to try to define what you mean clearly by "faith". If I tried to do it for you I would probably not reflect your interpretation. It would be a pointless exercise for me.
I thought I said it clearly to begin with. Faith is pointed at Thee God denoting a sentiment of being Trustworthy. Thee God being the Power that brought forth all things including us.
 
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childeye 2

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Anyone religious has faith in their deity or unseen concept. Faith in the divine is not only for Christians.
We're arguing semantics. Empathy/Love is not a concept nor is it unseen as an impetus in our actions. For example nobody has a concept that they now should weep when watching a sad or joyous moment in a movie.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Okay. But you originally used the term 'mistranslated' rather than 'misinterpreted' and that would explain why there is a misunderstanding.

Not much of a difference really.

I thought I said it clearly to begin with. Faith is pointed at Thee God denoting a sentiment of being Trustworthy. Thee God being the Power that brought forth all things including us.
No, faith is pointed at all gods. There is no "Thee God". Now you are making up nonsense terms. "Thee God" could be any god. Faith is not a pathway to the truth. It leads just as strongly to Islam as it does to Christianity.
 
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childeye 2

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I can agree with that. But that does not support the claims the Bible makes.
The Gospel presents that either I believe that Love/empathy is an attribute of the Creator manifesting in the creature, or is an attribute of the creature apart from any self aware Creator. Essentially the Love/empathy seen on the cross is meant to be understood as pure and coming from somewhere higher than ourselves. All of scripture is saying that the creature in some degree tends to take for granted what God bestows and therefore does not esteem God as God, which is a vanity born out of un-thankfulness.
 
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childeye 2

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Not much of a difference really.
But there's a difference nonetheless. The more subtle the more believable the lie. But when followed as if true, it will proceed to become greater in it's deviation the longer it is followed.


No, faith is pointed at all gods. There is no "Thee God". Now you are making up nonsense terms. "Thee God" could be any god. Faith is not a pathway to the truth. It leads just as strongly to Islam as it does to Christianity.
I doubt you realize that you're only making my point when you conflate faith with superstition in your psycholinguistics. Whatever meaning of belief you're imagining must end in a contradiction of reasoning. Why? Because the present reality we find ourselves in, is happening in this single universe shared by all, wherefore there is only one (1) source of the energy from which this universe formed. Hence Thee God in scripture, before any imagery is added, is the only place where faith and unfaith is not superstition.
 
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Subduction Zone

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But there's a difference nonetheless. The more subtle the more believable the lie. But when followed as if true, it will proceed to become greater in it's deviation the longer it is followed.

Let's watch the "lie" claims. By the way when I was still a Christian I saw that there was so much evidence against the creation stories and other stories in Genesis that I realized that it could not be literally true. It would make God a liar and I could not see that.

I doubt you realize that you're only making my point when you conflate faith with superstition in your psycholinguistics. Whatever meaning of belief you're imagining must end in a contradiction of reasoning. Why? Because the present reality we find ourselves in, is happening in this single universe shared by all, wherefore there is only one (1) source of the energy from which this universe formed. Hence Thee God in scripture, before any imagery is added, is the only place where faith and unfaith is not superstition.
Where did I ever conflate faith with superstition? Please, no more false accusations.
 
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childeye 2

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Let's watch the "lie" claims. By the way when I was still a Christian I saw that there was so much evidence against the creation stories and other stories in Genesis that I realized that it could not be literally true. It would make God a liar and I could not see that.
As to the lie claims; For the record I am not suggesting that you intentionally lied and I'm not claiming you're a liar. I'm simply saying that if we believe something not true we are deceived into reasoning upon it as truth.
Where did I ever conflate faith with superstition? Please, no more false accusations.
Again, I did not mean to accuse you of anything, and I understand how it could have been taken that way. Please accept my sincere apologies.

You said "There is no "Thee God" that faith can be pointed to, as if it's credulous to believe there is a singular source of the energy that created our single universe which we find ourselves in. Moreover, you said "faith is pointed at all gods", including false images of god/gods/goddesses, which includes believing in things not real. Since you equally count belief in them all as 'faith', you are equating 'faith' as described in scripture, with superstition.
 
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Subduction Zone

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As to the lie claims; For the record I am not suggesting that you intentionally lied and I'm not claiming you're a liar. I'm simply saying that if we believe something not true we are deceived into reasoning upon it as truth.

I see, like those that read Genesis literally. It can be shown to be wrong and yet deniers are afraid to learn the science that would allow them to see this.

Again, I did not mean to accuse you of anything, and I understand how it could have been taken that way. Please accept my sincere apologies.

You said "There is no "Thee God" that faith can be pointed to, as if it's credulous to believe there is a singular source of the energy that created our single universe which we find ourselves in. Moreover, you said 'faith' is pointed at all gods including false images of god/god/goddesses, which includes believing in things not real. Since you count them all as 'faith', you are equating 'faith' as according to scripture, with superstition.


Don't conflate the beginning of the universe with God. In fact we do not know how the universe started and there does not seem to be any good reason to say that a God did it. At times the correct answer is simply "We don't know yet". We can tell roughly how long ago the beginning of the universe as we know it began. That idea can be tested by more than one mean. And none of the gods that I pointed to were any more false than others. All of them are believed in based upon the same "faith". And it appears that it is you that is calling faith "superstition" not me. As I so correctly pointed out faith is not a pathway to the truth.

But if you claim that your beliefs are not faith in the sense that other religions are that would seem to indicate that you think your beliefs are rational. This is a very honest question. How would you test your faith? What reasonable test could possibly show your faith to be wrong?
 
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childeye 2

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I see, like those that read Genesis literally. It can be shown to be wrong and yet deniers are afraid to learn the science that would allow them to see this.
Well you're argument is basically between what is metaphor and literal. Jesus is called the bread of life yet that was not a loaf of bread that was crucified.

Don't conflate the beginning of the universe with God.
I'm not. I'm saying the term God according to scripture is the word given to describe the source of the energy that created the universe. Since God reveals Himself a Person in the Christ the term God then becomes axiomatic.

In fact we do not know how the universe started and there does not seem to be any good reason to say that a God did it.
But scripture is not saying 'a' god did it. Scripture is saying Thee God did it. This is again the difference between superstition and faith in scripture. It's like you're thinking and saying, that a Christian is saying, that they believe something unrealistic has created reality, and then commenting on the errant paraphrasing by proclaiming there does not seem to be any good reasoning to say a god did it.

At times the correct answer is simply "We don't know yet". We can tell roughly how long ago the beginning of the universe as we know it began. That idea can be tested by more than one mean. And none of the gods that I pointed to were any more false than others. All of them are believed in based upon the same "faith". And it appears that it is you that is calling faith "superstition" not me. As I so correctly pointed out faith is not a pathway to the truth.
Of course, I am obviously the one in our discourse making the distinction between faith and superstition, while you are the one asking "Where did I ever conflate faith with superstition?" Those other gods or rather images of god/gods/goddesses are clearly not the same faith as Christianity.

You asserted that faith is not a pathway to the truth when what you really mean is superstition is not a pathway to the truth, since to you, all things called god are not even real. Moreover you don't factor in that knowing the truth of God's Character involves determining the Person of Christ as either trustworthy or untrustworthy, which makes the term God axiomatic.

But if you claim that your beliefs are not faith in the sense that other religions are that would seem to indicate that you think your beliefs are rational. This is a very honest question. How would you test your faith? What reasonable test could possibly show your faith to be wrong?
Faith comes by hearing the Gospel, which means understanding the Gospel in a spiritual introspect.

Fundamentally The Gospel Truth presents that either I believe that Love/empathy is an attribute of the Creator manifesting in the creature, or an attribute of the creature apart from any self aware Creator. Which is why I must perceive that to understand God as a Spirit in me, there is nothing in the moral/immoral purview that can be thought or said that did not in some degree affirm Him in the positive or the negative as in moving towards Him or away from Him. The determination I make will define all the moral terms I reason upon and the conclusions and demeanor that will result when I deliberate on them. An important thing to note is that in either case, Love/empathy is a positive valued as the highest virtue, but only in the worship of self does it become vain and corruptible. Moreover, the self sacrificial Love I see in the Christ is an extreme display of endurance and perseverance unto death all for the sake of forgiveness, according to the Gospel. It is pure and moving towards wanting to believe/trust in purity, and not corruption. Which is why the only suitable avenue for unbelief to take, is to either count Jesus crazy, or to deny the story ever happened as told all together.

Negatives usurp from positives. Positives do not usurp from negatives. Truth is a constant. Something is greater than nothing. In other words, Truth precedes a lie in existence hence a lie corrupts what is good, such as wanting to believe in something pure. Sure, I know there's a voice/thought inside of me that says, You don't know if the Gospel account is even real. It's a response to the Gospel that looks true enough when appealing to honesty, but in practical application is no different than, I don't know it's not real. What matters is whether I view the Love I see on the cross as coming from somewhere higher than ourselves, and the doubt only serves to not make that distinction. Since the doubt serves to dismiss out of hand rather than leans towards seeking to understand what is being presented, it is illogical. Therefore the voice or thought is sowing a doubt based on a negative prejudice not logic or evidence. The doubt is using the sentiment of 'lack of evidence' (occasion of ignorance), to avoid evaluating what is self evident in The Gospel including the atheism presented therein.

Respectfully, the application of faith in your commentary is inaccurate in the sense that it seems that it's my faith that establishes certain facts other than my faithfulness. It's actually the certain facts and logic that support the reasoning for faith so that I may be faithful (become filled with faith).

Consider the analogy of needing three points to navigate the seas. We need to know where we're coming from and where we're going to, and one constant relative to both which we can trust in. So it's inescapable that when I reason upon the Spiritual knowledge of God I am also discerning atheism in the process, whereas atheism could not make that same claim being disabled in it's carnal terminology of psycholinguistics. Wherefore I can tell you assuredly that the term 'faith' in Christianity can only be pointed at God when seeing Christ as a trustworthy person, which is why faith must be pointed at an established positive that is reliably constant and pure wherein we will not be diminished in our hope thereof for all people. When pointed towards the negative it is unbelief/distrust, and when pointed at something that does not exist or is myth, it is actually superstition having nothing to do with faith at all.

My faithfulness is attacked/tested everyday in a world that seeks to corrupt my trust in empathy/Love as Eternal and therefore as God. There is no reasonable test that could prove I am wrong about the one Faith in the one Truth common to all of mankind because unfaith would be unreasonable.
 
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Larniavc

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We're arguing semantics. Empathy/Love is not a concept nor is it unseen as an impetus in our actions. For example nobody has a concept that they now should weep when watching a sad or joyous moment in a movie.
We are not arguing semantics. My point is that faith is not exclusive to Christianity. If you are using the word ‘faith’ to represent something specific to Christianity you should probably call in something else because all people can have faith in the unseen: not just Christians.
 
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Larniavc

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The Gospel presents that either I believe that Love/empathy is an attribute of the Creator manifesting in the creature, or is an attribute of the creature apart from any self aware Creator. Essentially the Love/empathy seen on the cross is meant to be understood as pure and coming from somewhere higher than ourselves. All of scripture is saying that the creature in some degree tends to take for granted what God bestows and therefore does not esteem God as God, which is a vanity born out of un-thankfulness.
I really don’t understand how you got there from our conversation about faith. Faith is not restricted to Christians.
 
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BobRyan

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I really don’t understand how you got there from our conversation about faith. Faith is not restricted to Christians.

from post #2

Some will say that one group has faith in the ability of the infinite Being...
And Creationist will say that there are others who have faith in the talented rock.


But the difference is that we DO see dust turned into rabbit in a day - every day.
And we DON'T see talented rock do that on its own - ever!

(Infinite Creator makes matter transforming living "machines" where plant turns dirt into leaf "every day" and rabbit turns leaf into "more rabbit" every day). Yep we see that every day and it argues that the infinite creator with sufficient power and wisdom could do the entire thing in a day with resulting in the compete rabbit in a single step. (i.e. the nature of "infinite")

Either way creationists have the informed-faith-with-evidence in the example above where every day - we "see" the dust-to-rabbit transformation in the living systems God created.

Blind faith is the "talented rock" version-
 
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BobRyan

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Where did I imply that faith was superstition? My problem with faith is that it is not a pathway to the truth.

The person that knows nothing about aerodynamics and "Gets on the plane anyway" is on the right path to truth.

But that is not faith. At least not in the religious sense. Please, no equivocation fallacies.

IT is the everybody-including-atheist sense for the plane... that was the point.
 
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BobRyan

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Was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, a real tree or an allegorical tree?

God is real in Genesis 2 and 3, Adam is real in Genesis 2 and 3, Eve is real in Genesis 2 and 3 (as Christ points out and so also Paul) and the tree was real.

If you answer that the tree of good and evil was a real tree with real edible fruit. Then you hold to a literal interpretation.

As James Barr points out (and noted in the first two posts.)

read the first two posts.
 
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BobRyan

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Interesting. What do you think the new Covid19 strain is that let’s it spread more easily if not evolution ?

Which we have now observed.

Not even remotely evolution... the gross equivocation between mutation within a single kind (in this case the virus did not become a bacteria or any other such thing... still a virus) -- is mutation not evolution.

If we delete the salient point of evolution and reduce it down to "a change happened" then having your fingernail grow is under that broad anything-qualifies form and it proves nothing.

Creationists - vs - evolutionist is not a debate where Creationists argue that "fingernails don't grow" or where Creationists argue "a virus will not remain a virus".

Details matter in the C-v-E discussions.
 
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childeye 2

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We are not arguing semantics. My point is that faith is not exclusive to Christianity. If you are using the word ‘faith’ to represent something specific to Christianity you should probably call in something else because all people can have faith in the unseen: not just Christians.
When I say we're arguing semantics, I'm saying the terms are unclear in their subjectivity. I'm using the term Thee Faith referencing a single common faith in a single common Truth that all people would share in, or be against themselves.
 
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Larniavc

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Not even remotely evolution...
That is evolution in action. A change in allele frequency over time. Which is a fundamental building block of TOE.

To say it’s not evolution is a daft as saying accepting Christ is irrelevant to Salvation.

You would laugh me out of church if I claimed that.
 
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Larniavc

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If we delete the salient point of evolution and reduce it down to "a change happened" then having your fingernail grow is under that broad anything-qualifies form and it proves nothing.
Why would we do that? If we took out the salient point of Salvation and reduce it down to ‘believing in the supernatural’ then belief in ghosts qualifies and proves nothing.
 
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Larniavc

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When I say we're arguing semantics, I'm saying the terms are unclear in their subjectivity. I'm using the term Thee Faith referencing a single common faith in a single common Truth that all people would share in, or be against themselves.
Ah, so what you really mean is ‘believing in God’?
 
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childeye 2

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I really don’t understand how you got there from our conversation about faith. Faith is not restricted to Christians.
There is One Truth for all of mankind to learn and trust in, even as we share one planet.
 
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