Ken Rank

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all the verses are important but notice who was armed with the Written Code. Lets talk about this and how Scripture tells us we rearm the powers of darkness.
As stated in my last post to you... there is no reason to continue. You don't take anything I say seriously... you are only looking for talking points to fire back. I am not interested.

Regarding the Colossians, the ordinance that stood against us was not "do not lay with a man as you would a woman," or "do not covet" or "serve no other gods." The ordinance that stood against us was the pronouncement of guilt that eternally separated us from God and initiated death into our lives. THAT guilty verdict was nailed to the cross, not "do not steal."

I am done now. I didn't realize you had commented again... so really, please save your time.
 
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Vicky gould

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As stated in my last post to you... there is no reason to continue. You don't take anything I say seriously... you are only looking for talking points to fire back. I am not interested.

Regarding the Colossians, the ordinance that stood against us was not "do not lay with a man as you would a woman," or "do not covet" or "serve no other gods." The ordinance that stood against us was the pronouncement of guilt that eternally separated us from God and initiated death into our lives. THAT guilty verdict was nailed to the cross, not "do not steal."

I am done now. I didn't realize you had commented again... so really, please save your time.

Sorry you feel that way. I can understand you feeling but I thought you are doing the same thing you say I am doing. I listen to and digest everything I hear, read, etc. I defend what I believe is true and contest what I think is error. I have yet to meet anyone who did not do that. I am sincerely sorry if I did or said anything that was not to your edification. I personally enjoy the vigorous defense of having what I believe given a test against others beliefs. Again I did not know I was offense I thought you gave as good as you got. I hope we can at least
 
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Vicky gould

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Sorry you feel that way. I can understand you feeling but I thought you are doing the same thing you say I am doing. I listen to and digest everything I hear, read, etc. I defend what I believe is true and contest what I think is error. I have yet to meet anyone who did not do that. I am sincerely sorry if I did or said anything that was not to your edification. I personally enjoy the vigorous defense of having what I believe given a test against others beliefs. Again I did not know I was offense I thought you gave as good as you got. I hope we can at least

Last post. Here is my problem I thought you I read what you say and it is different from what I understand Scripture’ to be teaching. I don’t take anyone lightly and had no idea I am s
Sorry you feel that way. I can understand you feeling but I thought you are doing the same thing you say I am doing. I listen to and digest everything I hear, read, etc. I defend what I believe is true and contest what I think is error. I have yet to meet anyone who did not do that. I am sincerely sorry if I did or said anything that was not to your edification. I personally enjoy the svigorous defense of having what I believe given a test against others beliefs. Again I did not know I was offense I thought you gave as good as you got. I believe Scripture clearly shows the Law to be a unit. I could cite the passage from Jeremiah that tells a thin
 
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Vicky gould

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As stated in my last post to you... there is no reason to continue. You don't take anything I say seriously... you are only looking for talking points to fire back. I am not interested.

Regarding the Colossians, the ordinance that stood against us was not "do not lay with a man as you would a woman," or "do not covet" or "serve no other gods." The ordinance that stood against us was the pronouncement of guilt that eternally separated us from God and initiated death into our lives. THAT guilty verdict was nailed to the cross, not "do not steal."

I am done now. I didn't realize you had commented again... so really, please save your time.
Morning, I erred on the chapter from Deuteronomy should have said chapter 32. Sorry
 
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Ken Rank

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under the law.
An idiom is a figure of speech which is designed to express a literal concept through an abstract picture. “Kicking the bucket” is an idiom depicting death, yet at death one doesn’t “kick a bucket.” There are many idioms in English, some say as many as 25,000 of them, but who really knows? Many idioms are regional, some even personal. I grew up using the term “booking” when speaking about running fast. Idioms exist in all languages including of course, Greek and Hebrew.

Scripture is full of idioms. The idiomatic phrase "poor in spirit” found in Matthew 5:3 is an abbreviated idiom that refers to the "poor and of a contrite spirit" from Isaiah 66:2. It means those that have come to the end of their own strength and cry out in desperation to God, acknowledging they have no righteousness of their own. There are so many Hebrew idioms found in scripture that I am sure we don’t always recognize them all. One of them is the phrase “under the law.”

“For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace." Rom. 6:14

What does “under the law” mean? The Torah of God is not tangible, meaning it isn’t like we can cozy up under it like a blanket. Therefore, this phrase needs to be considered in more abstract terms. This is one of those idioms that have really caused much confusion in the church over the years. A misunderstanding of this idiom, and a few others like it, cause us to recoil against a brother or sister for taking part in something they deem done away with, like the Sabbath or other Feast days. In their recoil they will generally malign the brother taking part in the Feast as being lost, in a cult, or trying to “work his way to salvation.” This just isn’t the case, but how do you get that point across to somebody who was born into a culture that has misrepresented and/or misunderstood Torah (God’s instructions, directions, laws) for hundreds of years?

I had an epiphany regarding the idiom “under the law” in the weirdest of places, a Western Maryland highway. About 15 years ago, I was traveling with my wife and children from Kentucky back to NJ to spend Thanksgiving with family. I was not too far into Western Maryland from West Virginia when I was pulled over for speeding. I was heading east and coming off a fairly steep mountain and had gained a little too much speed in the process. I was pulled over doing 79 in a 65 and I was guilty. The officer came to my window and asked for my credentials which he received with some lame excuse as to why I was driving as quickly as I was. He left, ran his checks, and came back 5 minutes later with what was surely a ticket worth a couple of points and at least $100. Instead, he gave me a written warning, no ticket, no points, no fine!

I was guilty under (or according to) the Maryland State traffic laws and deserved the points, the fine, and the ticket! However, what the officer extended to me was grace; he showed me unmerited (un-earned) favor. I was no longer guilty under the law. However, the grace he extended to me did not abrogate (revoke) the Maryland State traffic laws. Even though I was given a pass, shown grace, it was still against the law to speed.

The lesson here should be obvious. We are born into sin, to the degree that it is our nature to sin. We often miss the mark we are aiming at, but, we have been shown grace by a God who through the 2nd Adam, reversed the curse incurred through the sin of the 1st Adam. We no longer have guilt, which is what the idiom “under the law” is dealing with. We are no longer guilty, sin and death no longer reigns over us, we have escaped with a written warning. However, because we are no longer guilty under the law, because we have had un-merited favor extended to us, that does not abrogate the commandments of God, commandments He said were everlasting. It is still sin to steal, to serve another god, to make idols. It is still sin to murder, to commit adultery, and yes, forsake the Sabbath. These are everlasting commands given by God to His people. When we come to the God of Israel through the Messiah of Israel, we become a “part of” the family of God. (Eph. 2) And the commandments were given to the family of God as part of an everlasting covenant that is being renewed through the blood of Messiah. We are not under the law, we are no longer guilty, but we are also not licensed to walk in lawlessness (Torahlessness).

Matthew 7:23 and then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice Torahlessness!' (lawlessness- Greek anomia meaning “without law”)
 
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timothyu

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We are not under the law, we are no longer guilty, but we are also not licensed to walk in lawlessness
So are we to totally never put our will first over God's once repenting, or hate the fact being still of the flesh we have slipped now and then yet by our fruits show our understanding of how God's will serves us better than our own will?
 
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Vicky gould

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I don't recall seeing any post that included Deuteronomy.
oops thought I sent it. Israel history prophetically given with the church taking up two who verses. This is going to be the indictment that will be sung when the Ancient of Days convenes the court. Thanks for showing His grace. I am passionate about these things and sometimes don't know I am not bbeing nice. Please just tell me and I can reign it back in. Nice discussing these things who is also knowledgeable and passionate.
 
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Ken Rank

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So are we to totally never put our will first over God's once repenting, or hate the fact being still of the flesh we have slipped now and then yet by our fruits show our understanding of how God's will serves us better than our own will?
Can I answer this with a verse and a short explanation and let you decide for yourself?

Col. 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

The word "name" in Hebrew (shem) deals more with the name bearer's character, reputation, and authority more than what we call somebody. So, for example, to "walk in God's name" is to walk in a way that adds to His reputation, reflects His character traits to those around you, and stands within His will (and authority). On the flip side, the profane His name is to walk in a manner that takes from His reputation, does not reflect His character, and is outside of His authority.

With that in mind... Col. 3:17 is saying that everything we do, everything we say, should be done in a way that adds to His reputation, reflects His character, and is within the scope of His authority.

My only comment... I am not sure one can find room to do their own will if they are truly walking in God's name.
 
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timothyu

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Can I answer this with a verse and a short explanation and let you decide for yourself?

Yes follow what He stands for... which in His case was the counter-culture of the Kingdom and a way to it
I am not sure one can find room to do their own will if they are truly walking in God's name.

Unfortunately everybody still will put self over another, even in the smallest ways.,
.
 
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An idiom is a figure of speech which is designed to express a literal concept through an abstract picture. “Kicking the bucket” is an idiom depicting death, yet at death one doesn’t “kick a bucket.” There are many idioms in English, some say as many as 25,000 of them, but who really knows? Many idioms are regional, some even personal. I grew up using the term “booking” when speaking about running fast. Idioms exist in all languages including of course, Greek and Hebrew.

Scripture is full of idioms. The idiomatic phrase "poor in spirit” found in Matthew 5:3 is an abbreviated idiom that refers to the "poor and of a contrite spirit" from Isaiah 66:2. It means those that have come to the end of their own strength and cry out in desperation to God, acknowledging they have no righteousness of their own. There are so many Hebrew idioms found in scripture that I am sure we don’t always recognize them all. One of them is the phrase “under the law.”

“For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace." Rom. 6:14

What does “under the law” mean? The Torah of God is not tangible, meaning it isn’t like we can cozy up under it like a blanket. Therefore, this phrase needs to be considered in more abstract terms. This is one of those idioms that have really caused much confusion in the church over the years. A misunderstanding of this idiom, and a few others like it, cause us to recoil against a brother or sister for taking part in something they deem done away with, like the Sabbath or other Feast days. In their recoil they will generally malign the brother taking part in the Feast as being lost, in a cult, or trying to “work his way to salvation.” This just isn’t the case, but how do you get that point across to somebody who was born into a culture that has misrepresented and/or misunderstood Torah (God’s instructions, directions, laws) for hundreds of years?

I had an epiphany regarding the idiom “under the law” in the weirdest of places, a Western Maryland highway. About 15 years ago, I was traveling with my wife and children from Kentucky back to NJ to spend Thanksgiving with family. I was not too far into Western Maryland from West Virginia when I was pulled over for speeding. I was heading east and coming off a fairly steep mountain and had gained a little too much speed in the process. I was pulled over doing 79 in a 65 and I was guilty. The officer came to my window and asked for my credentials which he received with some lame excuse as to why I was driving as quickly as I was. He left, ran his checks, and came back 5 minutes later with what was surely a ticket worth a couple of points and at least $100. Instead, he gave me a written warning, no ticket, no points, no fine!

I was guilty under (or according to) the Maryland State traffic laws and deserved the points, the fine, and the ticket! However, what the officer extended to me was grace; he showed me unmerited (un-earned) favor. I was no longer guilty under the law. However, the grace he extended to me did not abrogate (revoke) the Maryland State traffic laws. Even though I was given a pass, shown grace, it was still against the law to speed.

The lesson here should be obvious. We are born into sin, to the degree that it is our nature to sin. We often miss the mark we are aiming at, but, we have been shown grace by a God who through the 2nd Adam, reversed the curse incurred through the sin of the 1st Adam. We no longer have guilt, which is what the idiom “under the law” is dealing with. We are no longer guilty, sin and death no longer reigns over us, we have escaped with a written warning. However, because we are no longer guilty under the law, because we have had un-merited favor extended to us, that does not abrogate the commandments of God, commandments He said were everlasting. It is still sin to steal, to serve another god, to make idols. It is still sin to murder, to commit adultery, and yes, forsake the Sabbath. These are everlasting commands given by God to His people. When we come to the God of Israel through the Messiah of Israel, we become a “part of” the family of God. (Eph. 2) And the commandments were given to the family of God as part of an everlasting covenant that is being renewed through the blood of Messiah. We are not under the law, we are no longer guilty, but we are also not licensed to walk in lawlessness (Torahlessness).

Matthew 7:23 and then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice Torahlessness!' (lawlessness- Greek anomia meaning “without law”)
You have demonstrated that fine art of applying an interpretation to the scripture. Where a verse in the scripture has an obvious reading, you can with the aid of your interpretation. Make the verse in the scripture say the exact opposite of what the verse stated.

Here is the verse you mentioned and a perfect example of applying an interpretation to alter the text.

For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace. Romans 6:14

The plain reading is obvious that Christians are not under the law but after an interpretation is applied to that verse.

Then as if by magic you end up with a reading of that verse that states that. Christians have always been under the law, which is the exact opposite from the reading of the verse before it was subject to that interpretation.

This is the end of lesson one on the science of interpretation.
 
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Ken Rank

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You have demonstrated that fine art of applying an interpretation to the scripture. Where a verse in the scripture has an obvious reading, you can with the aid of your interpretation. Make the verse in the scripture say the exact opposite of what the verse stated.

Here is the verse you mentioned and a perfect example of applying an interpretation to alter the text.

For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace. Romans 6:14

The plain reading is obvious that Christians are not under the law but after an interpretation is applied to that verse.

Then as if by magic you end up with a reading of that verse that states that. Christians have always been under the law, which is the exact opposite from the reading of the verse before it was subject to that interpretation.

This is the end of lesson one on the science of interpretation.
Grace isn't a blanket that one can pull over them... it isn't an umbrella that one stands under. Therefore, to be "under" something is idiomatic. We are not under the law David (guilty) we are now under grace (forgiven). Otherwise, you are calling for lawlessness which Yeshua clearly warns against!
 
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klutedavid

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Grace isn't a blanket that one can pull over them... it isn't an umbrella that one stands under. Therefore, to be "under" something is idiomatic. We are not under the law David (guilty) we are now under grace (forgiven). Otherwise, you are calling for lawlessness which Yeshua clearly warns against!
We are under grace and under the law of Christ.

We are not lawless and could never be accused of lawlessness.

We are not under the law of Moses and you do not need to be circumcised.

Being guilty of transgression is a separate issue altogether to being under the law itself. Guilt is the outcome of the failure to obey the law and has nothing to do with the extent of the law, the jurisdiction of the law of Moses.

The Gentiles never had a temple, a priesthood, the seat of Moses, food laws, civil laws, or any ordinance from the law of Moses.

Where there is no law there is no violation of the law. If you impose the law you directly generate transgression, because people are law breakers and always will be.
 
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We are under grace and under the law of Christ.

We are not lawless and could never be accused of lawlessness.
When you insist that God's law is not for today, then you have removed the law and are lawless. Now, I don't think by nature you are lawless David, but I do think that like many (most) Christians today, you have a skewed view of something God is the author of.

Being guilty of transgression is a separate issue altogether to being under the law itself. Guilt is the outcome of the failure to obey the law and has nothing to do with the extent of the law, the jurisdiction of the law of Moses.
Um, no. All the law is, and this all existed before Mt. Sinai, is the compilation of God's instructions for humanity. Yes, "Torah" is literally defined as instructions or directions, look it up in multiple sources. It was placed in writing for the first time at Sinai but was known, much of it, before Sinai (yes I can prove that). Here is the thing.... we have the letter of the law (as it is plainly spelled out) and we have the spirit of the law (the intent and spirit behind the letter). Here is the difference....

Yeshua said that a man who sleeps with a married woman commits adultery... which means, the letter of the law still existed then. But then he said, "to even lust in the heart for a married woman is the same as adultery." (paraphrased) Ah, the spirit of the law... the intent... the HEART of it. If you murder somebody, David, you have sinned. If you hate that person, you have committed murder in your heart. That is NOW too... murder is a sin, sin is defined by the law (1 John 3:4) so unless you can no longer sin, there is a law in place telling us what is and is not sin!

What is the point? That NOBODY can keep the law perfectly, no matter who you are. Yeshua was the only one and though God expects us to follow Him and do as He did the best we can... in the end, nobody can keep the law perfectly. That is why, David, God is writing THE LAW on our hearts. Once completed, it will be a part of who and what we are and we won't be able to break it... it will be as if it were written in our DNA.

We were born into a condition wherein we cannot keep the law perfectly. The VERDICT... the legal determination of our fate? Death! That verdict, that guilty sentence, that determination of our fate.... nailed to the cross with Yeshua and taken into death with Him. Now, death has lost it's sting, why? Because we still deserve it... we have not been perfected yet... but with the promise of the resurrection there is no sting because it is no longer permanent. He has taken our GUILT into death with Him.

Where you get the idea that the commandments were taken with Him is beyond me. But if the commandments were taken into death with Him, then there are no commandments and we are lawless.

Where there is no law there is no violation of the law. If you impose the law you directly generate transgression, because people are law breakers and always will be.
Have you been perfected already? Are you unable to sin? Huh? Are you unable to sin? The answer is obvious... you haven't been perfected, you COULD still fall into temptation which means there still must be a law... you just quoted the verse yourself.
 
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When you insist that God's law is not for today, then you have removed the law and are lawless. Now, I don't think by nature you are lawless David, but I do think that like many (most) Christians today, you have a skewed view of something God is the author of.


Um, no. All the law is, and this all existed before Mt. Sinai, is the compilation of God's instructions for humanity. Yes, "Torah" is literally defined as instructions or directions, look it up in multiple sources. It was placed in writing for the first time at Sinai but was known, much of it, before Sinai (yes I can prove that). Here is the thing.... we have the letter of the law (as it is plainly spelled out) and we have the spirit of the law (the intent and spirit behind the letter). Here is the difference....

Yeshua said that a man who sleeps with a married woman commits adultery... which means, the letter of the law still existed then. But then he said, "to even lust in the heart for a married woman is the same as adultery." (paraphrased) Ah, the spirit of the law... the intent... the HEART of it. If you murder somebody, David, you have sinned. If you hate that person, you have committed murder in your heart. That is NOW too... murder is a sin, sin is defined by the law (1 John 3:4) so unless you can no longer sin, there is a law in place telling us what is and is not sin!

What is the point? That NOBODY can keep the law perfectly, no matter who you are. Yeshua was the only one and though God expects us to follow Him and do as He did the best we can... in the end, nobody can keep the law perfectly. That is why, David, God is writing THE LAW on our hearts. Once completed, it will be a part of who and what we are and we won't be able to break it... it will be as if it were written in our DNA.

We were born into a condition wherein we cannot keep the law perfectly. The VERDICT... the legal determination of our fate? Death! That verdict, that guilty sentence, that determination of our fate.... nailed to the cross with Yeshua and taken into death with Him. Now, death has lost it's sting, why? Because we still deserve it... we have not been perfected yet... but with the promise of the resurrection there is no sting because it is no longer permanent. He has taken our GUILT into death with Him.

Where you get the idea that the commandments were taken with Him is beyond me. But if the commandments were taken into death with Him, then there are no commandments and we are lawless.


Have you been perfected already? Are you unable to sin? Huh? Are you unable to sin? The answer is obvious... you haven't been perfected, you COULD still fall into temptation which means there still must be a law... you just quoted the verse yourself.
Hello, just to contribute with the discussion and hope I can make my point clear.
The law given in Mount Siani to Moses was given 430years after the covenant with Abraham according to Galatians 3:17....so we know it wasn't given in Genesis... we also know it wasn't given to gentiles according to Romans 2:14...

But,

the law of the Spirit- the law that requires faith was from the beginning we can see that in Hebrews 11 all faithful people from Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham etc were people living by Faith Not by the law...

So, we can see the two laws through out the bible...

(1)..Law of the Spirit or Law of Christ. ...the requirement of this law is FAITH. (knowledge of Christ )

This law is fulfilled by the Will of God

(2)..Law or Law of Sin and death...the requirement of this law is WORK (own works)...

This law is fulfilled by the will of human

Both laws points to eternal life (Righteousness ) which man must obtain to be able live forever...
 
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Ken Rank

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Hello, just to contribute with the discussion and hope I can make my point clear.
The law given in Mount Siani to Moses was given 430years after the covenant with Abraham according to Galatians 3:17....so we know it wasn't given in Genesis... we also know it wasn't given to gentiles according to Romans 2:14...
Actually, it was. Out of Egypt came Israel AND gentiles.. strangers or foreigners in your translation. The law was given to Israel AND those who attached themselves to the God of Israel but were not Israel by birth. So... yes... it isn't just a Jewish thing. :)

But,

the law of the Spirit- the law that requires faith was from the beginning we can see that in Hebrews 11 all faithful people from Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham etc were people living by Faith Not by the law...

So, we can see the two laws through out the bible...

(1)..Law of the Spirit or Law of Christ. ...the requirement of this law is FAITH. (knowledge of Christ )

This law is fulfilled by the Will of God

(2)..Law or Law of Sin and death...the requirement of this law is WORK (own works)...

This law is fulfilled by the will of human

Both laws points to eternal life (Righteousness ) which man must obtain to be able live forever...
Genesis 26:5 says Abraham kept all the Law and Commandments. Also, faith comes by hearing the word of God and is dead with works. If your "faith" isn't based on hearing God's word and acting on what you hear, it isn't faith anyway. You brought up Hebrews 11... every example there (please go look) has the man of faith hearing God and ACTING on what he heard.

The law of sin and death is what was introduced into creation from Adam's sin. "Do not steal" (part of the 10 commandments) or "do not lay with a man as you would a woman" (part of the extended Torah/Law) isn't part of "the law of sin and death." Adam sinned, the result was death.. the law of sin and death. God's law, His instructions, were not nailed to the cross.... our guilty verdict was.
 
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