commandments of men

[2Timothy2]

Let's look at just one of your arguments. Not to argue, rather to try to understand each other better.

"The Torah we call "Moses' law was G_d's Torah, and He does not change."

The implication I get from this statement is that since God does not change, and I agree He does not change, although our understanding of what that means may differ, His law/Torah must still be in effect. But, since He gave the law/torah at Sinai, it was not in effect before. Now, if at one time it was not in effect, then it was in effect, and God does not change, then, the law not being in effect now has no bearing on whether or not God changes.

 

[pablosrun]

The sabbath commandment was give at creation,Gen.2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made ; and he rested the on the seventh dayfrom all his work which he had made. 3 ; And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it.

 

[pablosrun]

From Catholic Christian Instructed pg.252
Question: What warrant have you for keeping the Sunday,preferable to the ancient Sabbath which is Saturday

Answer: We have for it the authority of the Catholic Church and the apostolic tradition

What does the Word say: Matthew15:3 But he answered and said unto them Why do ye also transgress the commandments of God by your tradition?
verse 9 But in vain they do worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

From the same Catholic Catechism;

Next Question: Does the scripture anywhere command the Sunday to be keeped for the Sabbath?

Answer: No the scripture does not in particular mention this changeof the sabbath...

What does the Word say; Malachi 3:6, For I am the Lord,I change not.

Also the Lords Day was proclaimed to be Sunday and not Saturday by Pope Sylvester

What does the Word say; Mark 2:27,28; And he said unto them , sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath.Therefore the Son of man is also Lord of the sabbath.

So if the sabbath wasn't changed from Saturday to Sunday anywhere in the scriptures and Jesus is Lord of the sabbath then The Lords Day Is Saturday.

In Matthew chapter 15 Jesus talks about transgressing Gods law by the churches tradition,and goes on to talk about honor thy mother and father which are part of the ten commandments,he says in verse 9 of Matthew 15 that if you do this your worship is in vain..

They were following the commandments of men is this what Sunday worship is???
Don't you think that if a commandment of God was changed there would at least be a verse if not a whole chapter on it and do you think Jesus would have spoke against following church tradition instead of Gods commandments if the commandments were done away with...

 

[visionary]

Let's look at just one of your arguments. Not to argue, rather to try to understand each other better.

"The Torah we call "Moses' law was G_d's Torah, and He does not change."

The implication I get from this statement is that since God does not change, and I agree He does not change, although our understanding of what that means may differ, His law/Torah must still be in effect. But, since He gave the law/torah at Sinai, it was not in effect before. Now, if at one time it was not in effect, then it was in effect, and God does not change, then, the law not being in effect now has no bearing on whether or not God changes.

That is why I say there were always the foundation of the Lord's kingdom, have always been in effect, even though the human race learns them in bits and pieces as they need them. The Law does not change, it is us that changes, God does not change the Law for it is a eternal law that leads all that follow into the life that will last for eternity. The Law is good..

Joshua 1:8
This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

As Paul said...

Romans 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

There is found in these laws, the Passover, where our Lord followed the symbolism with the prophectic truth, as the sacrifice for us.

Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

By the laws of the shadow of things to come, we are to look forward to the laws to pertain to the events that are soon to unfold on this earth in the fall feasts.... where the comers therunto will be made perfect.

But then if you are not meditating upon them, you would not have the opportunity to learn the secrets hidden in the laws for the things to come. The traditions or commandments of men do just that to the Messages that God has for our salvation. You have to by faith walk in the narrow path that the Lord has laid out, for by experience, does the truth of this life that is the Law of God reveal itself and it is all for our benefit and salvation.

 

[Velcro]

Timothy,

Don't you love Bible study? You seem to be one who does, so it is -- how shall I word it? -- comfortable writing to you. Yes. That works. I love a serious Bible student, even when we disagree.

With regard to arguing, I haven't seen you do that. Debate is a good thing, because it is a learning tool, and that is where we are.

When I wrote:

"The Torah we call "Moses' law was G_d's Torah, and He does not change."

you responded:

The implication I get from this statement is that since God does not change, and I agree He does not change, although our understanding of what that means may differ, His law/Torah must still be in effect. But, since He gave the law/torah at Sinai, it was not in effect before. Now, if at one time it was not in effect, then it was in effect, and God does not change, then, the law not being in effect now has no bearing on whether or not God changes.

Again, we disagree here. Before the Torah was given, there is hard evidence that it was already in force. It was unlawful to murder (Cain, etc.) and unlawful not to observe Sabbath (Genesis 2, Exodus 16, etc.). People already understood the sacrifices (a sheep was sacrificed for Adam's and Eve's sin, Abel and Cain understood sacrifice, Noah understood sacrifice, etc.). Covenants were enacted (with Noah, Abraham, etc.). People understood exactly who G-d was. . . . And the list goes on. At mount Sinai, it was written down, not first enacted. Torah was in effect, but G-d knows the minds of people, and He knew that the Torah had to be tactile, visual, etc., or people would think they had excuse to change it.

Check out Matthew 5:17 - 20, Messiah's own words in one of His (likely) first teachings. He is clear that Torah was still in effect, that He came to do Torah as He intended it when he wrote it (He is the Word, and there are other very strong evidences that it was He who wrote it and handed it to Moses.). He says very succinctly and firmly here that if one annuls any of the commandments and teaches others to do the same would be least in the kingdom. He also says that until heaven and earth pass away, not one stroke of the Torah would pass away. He then proceded to do and teach Torah, making it even stronger than the fathers had taught it, not detracting from it.

When it is written that he "fulfilled" Torah, that does not mean that He ended Torah by doing it; rather, it means that He did all of Torah, and He said that we are to follow Him as an example -- in today's language, "Do what I do." The apostles too that command very seriously, and they continued to attend the Temple and synagogues, teaching there, the Bible says "daily" but it also explicitly says that they taught on Sabbaths, as well as that the common believing folk came to hear them on Sabbath.

We mentioned the people of ancient times who had faith in the Messiah. They had faith looking forward; we have faith looking back. How is that different with regard to faith? We all must have faith, and it is the same faith in the same One. The writer of Romans sure did not differentiate; rather, he held them up as examples to us.

With regard to Paul, the apostles, and the Nazarite vow, would you say that they were in error?

 

[Kepha]

From Catholic Christian Instructed pg.252
Question: What warrant have you for keeping the Sunday,preferable to the ancient Sabbath which is Saturday

Answer: We have for it the authority of the Catholic Church and the apostolic tradition

Of course you forget the very Apostles who changed this were themselves part of the Catholic Church. You make it sound this Catholic who is answering the question denied this and claimed it was made up later on. Nice try though.

What does the Word say: Matthew15:3 But he answered and said unto them Why do ye also transgress the commandments of God by your tradition?
verse 9 But in vain they do worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

;

Take a good look in the mirror pablosrun, since it is your ancestors who he is taking about. Our Sacred Traditions are from the Apostles (2 Thes: 2:15) So then, brothers, stand firm, and hold the traditions which you were taught by us, whether by word, or by letter.

What does the Word say; Mark 2:27,28; And he said unto them , sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath.Therefore the Son of man is also Lord of the sabbath.

Your right, that's why you put way too much importance on the day rather on what the day is for.

I have an adventist friend at work who says the same dribble as this. He means well but boy............

 

[mystery4]

Let's look at just one of your arguments. Not to argue, rather to try to understand each other better.

"The Torah we call "Moses' law was G_d's Torah, and He does not change."

The implication I get from this statement is that since God does not change, and I agree He does not change, although our understanding of what that means may differ, His law/Torah must still be in effect. But, since He gave the law/torah at Sinai, it was not in effect before. Now, if at one time it was not in effect, then it was in effect, and God does not change, then, the law not being in effect now has no bearing on whether or not God changes.

I agree with you that God does not change and that His Law/Torah is still in effect. Jesus did say that in Matt 5. However from then onwards I agree with Velcro. I also wanted to bring to mind Rom 3 particularly verses 27-31.

I do not believe that the Law has changed at all. We still need a sacrifice because the wages of sin is death (sorry can't remember where it comes from) so therefore instead of having to sacrifice lambs Jesus became our sacrifice should we choose to accept him, then act upon our acceptance the way God would want us to.

 

[Katydid]

So are you saying if there was a temple you would sacrifice bulls and goats? Jesus took care of sacrifice for all time, this is the only reason we do not sacrifice bulls and goats and such.

Well, Jesus only took care of all sin sacrifices for all time. There are many different kinds of sacrifices, so yes, I would follow the sacrificial law if there was a temple.

 

[pablosrun]

HELLO

[Of course you forget the very Apostles who changed this were themselves part of the Catholic Church. You make it sound this Catholic who is answering the question denied this and claimed it was made up later on. Nice try though.]

Yes lets take a look...

[Take a good look in the mirror pablosrun, since it is your ancestors who he is taking about. Our Sacred Traditions are from the Apostles (2 Thes: 2:15) So then, brothers, stand firm, and hold the traditions which you were taught by us, whether by word, or by letter.]

[/QUOTE

]

What was the tradition of the apostles after Jesus ascended?????

Acts 13:14,15 But when they departed from perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day and sat down.15 And after reading of the law and the prophets (old testiment)the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them,saying ye men are brethren,if ye have any word of exortation for the people ,say on...

Wow they were still preaching on sabbath to the Jews......


Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Wow they preach to the gentiles on sabbath too......
So what is the apostolic tradition???????HMMMMM......

 

[2Timothy2]

Velcro, it is indeed a breath of fresh air to be able to disagree with someone and yet have a calm discussion on these forums.

We do indeed disagree though. I don't think we can be dogmatic in saying the law, as it is spelled out in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, was in force before Sinai. There was amimal sacrifice, and God's moral requirements, holiness, remains the same in all ages and time. But I don't see this as the same. This is why: there was a covenant entered into at Sinai between God and Israel. It is this very covenant that is called old in 2 Cor 3:14 and Hebrews 8. The New Covenant in Jesus Christ has replaced the covenant based on the torah. This in no way means God has changed or that our holiness requirement has changed. The old leads us to the new, it was an administrator until Jesus came and died. (Galatians 3:19-4:7) See also Romans 5-7. That said, there are covenants that are still in effect, from the Old Testament: Davidic, Noahic, Abrahamic. None of these are spoken of as having passed in Scripture. Only the one entered into at Sinai is said to have passed.

As for Paul and his vow in Acts, I honestly do not know. Acts is a difficult book for me to get a grasp on. Sometimes I think of it as a transitional book, sometimes as applicable for us, and sometimes simply as a faithful recording of history. So, you see, on Acts, I'm a bit screwed up. But I will go this far and say I don't believe doing what is in the law is wrong. It is only wrong when one believes it has any salvific value, that was the problem Paul dealt with in Galatians.

Also, more on track with the OP, I suppose, I do not believe God blessed Saturday. I understand Scripture teaching the Sabbath as a 6 on and 1 off model. It is the 1 off that is blessed, both for the work week and for the work years for the land. I wonder how we would even know that the 7th creation day was a Saturday, as we call it now. I think that is simply an assumption, unless I'm missing something. The first instance of setting up a calendar was in Exodus, as I recall. (in Scripture)

 

[Velcro]

I can only be on a moment -- I need a Sunday afternoon NAP!!! I had to run in to work today, thinking i was only running in for an hour, and it ended up three hours. I am wiped out.

But anyway . . . .

Part of what you wrote was:

As for Paul and his vow in Acts, I honestly do not know. Acts is a difficult book for me to get a grasp on. Sometimes I think of it as a transitional book, sometimes as applicable for us, and sometimes simply as a faithful recording of history. So, you see, on Acts, I'm a bit screwed up. But I will go this far and say I don't believe doing what is in the law is wrong. It is only wrong when one believes it has any salvific value, that was the problem Paul dealt with in Galatians.

Salvific value? You are absolutely right -- sacrifice never had salvific value. The only salvific value was always in faith in the Messiah and His crucifixion and resurrection. Sacrifice cannot save, Torah cannot save: only faith in Him can save, and Paul knew and taught that. Here, we agree strongly.

Also, more on track with the OP, I suppose, I do not believe God blessed Saturday.

Well, the Scriptures say explicitly that He created it -- the only thing he created on that day was Sabbath -- and He blessed it, setting it apart, even naming the seventh day Sabbath. No other day had a name -- only that one.

I wonder how we would even know that the 7th creation day was a Saturday, as we call it now. I think that is simply an assumption, unless I'm missing something. The first instance of setting up a calendar was in Exodus, as I recall. (in Scripture)

Yet those who observe Sunday believe they are observing the "right day," based upon what has been handed down over the ages. I see G-d setting up the calendar in Genesis, when He called off the days by number, just as we still do -- seven days across the calendar. He then, in Gen 1:14, set up the greater calendar by signs, seasons, and years, according to the writer.

But I am about to fall off this chair. I need some Zs!

 

[cliff3]

If the seventh day is saturday and we rest on sunday and the scriptures don't show a change of the day anywhere are we not following a commandment of men?

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.[/QUOT


You are correct.

 

[2Timothy2]

No actually he's wrong.


Velcro, I certainly don't dispute what Genesis says. God definitely blessed the seventh day, the day He rested and ceased from His creating work. But, what I'm saying is that we have no certainty that this is the same seventh day we call Saturday. It's certainly possible, maybe even likely, but, Scripture doesn't say, so we can't be dogmatic, IMO. But still, I think it is a 6 on 1 off model, not a concrete day for rest. Also, Sunday worship isn't about Sabbath rest, it's about celibrating the resurrection of our Lord.

 

[Bon]

Also, Sunday worship isn't about Sabbath rest, it's about celibrating the resurrection of our Lord.

Hi 2Timothy2,

Why then dont you celebrate the death and resurrection of Yahshua (Jesus) at God's appointed time?

Shalom from Bon

 

[cliff3]

No actually he's wrong.


Velcro, I certainly don't dispute what Genesis says. God definitely blessed the seventh day, the day He rested and ceased from His creating work. But, what I'm saying is that we have no certainty that this is the same seventh day we call Saturday. It's certainly possible, maybe even likely, but, Scripture doesn't say, so we can't be dogmatic, IMO. But still, I think it is a 6 on 1 off model, not a concrete day for rest. Also, Sunday worship isn't about Sabbath rest, it's about celibrating the resurrection of our Lord.

The study of astromony shows that the days of the week have remained the same and that the 7th day of Creation is still the same 7th day that we have today.

 

[2Timothy2]

Studying astronomy has nothing to do with whether men have changed the calandar. That should be abundantly obvious.

Bon, what are you implying? Sunday was the day He rose, and the early Church met on the first day of the week to celibrate this, as we do today. Well, some of us, no offense. heh I am not saying you should not observe the Sabbath, just that we are not required to do so under the New Covenant. This is clear from Scripture. I don't follow someone's visions or traditions, and never will. The Bible is the only authority for me in this.

 

[Katydid]

Bon, what are you implying? Sunday was the day He rose, and the early Church met on the first day of the week to celibrate this, as we do today. Well, some of us, no offense. heh I am not saying you should not observe the Sabbath, just that we are not required to do so under the New Covenant. This is clear from Scripture. I don't follow someone's visions or traditions, and never will. The Bible is the only authority for me in this

I believe she is asking why you celebrate Easter rather than passover which is when the death and resurection actually occured.

 

[2Timothy2]

LOL, that's directed at the wrong person. I am not particularly fond of the Christmas or Easter holidays. Although, I'll admit that I don't know how far off Easter is from Passover, timing wise. But, for me, every Sunday is Easter.

 

[Oblio]

LOL, that's directed at the wrong person. I am not particularly fond of the Christmas or Easter holidays. Although, I'll admit that I don't know how far off Easter is from Passover, timing wise.

In the East, Pascha is the first Sunday after Jewish passover. This year it is May 1st.

 

[cliff3]

This thread is about the "commandments of men"

When we look at it, that means Sunday instead of the 7th day.

There has never been a command to keep the 1st day of the week in the Bible.