Commandments of God - still apply - to ALL the World, everyone

BobRyan · May 2, 2023

Rom 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Gen 2 "obey and live" still applies to all the world for all are under the Law and all have sinned Rom 3:23. Gal 3 points out that same function of the Law for the lost person to this very day. It remains to inform the lost of their need of the Gospel.

Only the Gospel frees from condemnation under the Law.

Rom 3: 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Under the NEW Covenant.

For those who take the time to read the NEW Covenant -" the LAW of God is written on heart and mind" Jer 31:31-34 Heb 8:6-12. This is the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers where as Deut 5:22 says - 'He spoke those ten words and added no more" - which was making sure that whatever else is included in the term "moral law of God" - the TEN are not to excluded.

Paul calls this - "the commandments of God" - "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

1 John 5:3 "this IS the Love of God what we KEEP His Commandments"

WHere "the first commandment with a promise is - "Honor your father and mother"' Eph 6:2 in that still-valid unit of TEN

Matt 19 - Jesus says "KEEP the Commandments" and is then asked "which ones" -- He then quotes only from the Law of Moses, only the moral law

James 2 quotes only from the LAW of Moses for examples of NT Law.

================= This next part was just toooo good to leave out of the OP

BobRyan said:
In that Rom 3 chapter there are no exceptions -

9 What then? Are we (Jews as custodians of the written word) better than they (gentiles with no history of the Word)? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written:

“There is no righteous person, not even one;
11 There is no one who understands,
There is no one who seeks out God;
12 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good,
There is not even one.”...

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.
23 for ALL have sinned

The context for Tom 3:19 is "no exceptions... not even one" that is the context for "every mouth... all the world".

It just does not get any easier than that.

No wonder Almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

BobRyan · May 2, 2023

IT is only OT saints that we see upheld as examples for NT saints in Heb 11. Which means that the book of Hebrews was not written to convince NT Christian Hebrews that the OT religion was done away or bad for Christians.

Hebrews 3 quotes the OT with the prefix "The Holy Spirit says" - rather than "it was just Moses and that is not for us Christians"

Hebrews 7 ends the earthly priesthood at the cross.

Hebrews 10:4-12 ends ceremonial - animal sacrifices and offerings at the the cross.

But as the Baptist Confession of Faith section 19 points out -- that did not end the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant - which includes the TEN Commandments where "The first commandment with a promise - is 'Honor your father and mother'" Eph 6:2 as Paul reminds all Christian saints at Ephesus.

BobRyan · May 2, 2023

"The first commandment with a promise - is Honor your Father and mother" Eph 6:2 - which is only true within the TEN

Matt 19 Jesus said "KEEP the Commandments" and he only quotes from the Law of Moses in the TEN Commandments plus Lev 19:18

Rom 13 Paul only quotes from the TEN Commandments and Lev 19:18 .

Jer 31:31-34 "The LAW of God written on the heart" under the NEW Covenant - includes the TEN Commandments as Jeremiah and his readers knew because in Deut 5:22 "HE spoke the TEN Words and ADDED NO MORE"

No wonder James 2 only quotes from the TEN plus Lev 19:18.
No wonder Rom 14 only quotes from the TEN plus Lev 19:18

No wonder Is 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross in the new Earth "From SAbbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

No wonder D.L. Moody has such a strong message on THE TEN commandments

BobRyan said:
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
BY
DWIGHT L. MOODY

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
BY
DWIGHT L. MOODY

The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.

"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.

HOW TO OBSERVE THE SABBATH

"Sabbath" means "rest," and the meaning of the word gives a hint as to the true way to observe the day. God rested after creation, and ordained the Sabbath as a rest for man. He blessed it and hallowed it. Remember the rest-day to keep it holy. It is the day when the body may be refreshed and strengthened after six days of labor, and the soul drawn into closer fellowship with its Maker.

"True observance of the Sabbath may be considered under two general heads:

cessation from ordinary secular work, and
religious exercises.

[/QUOTE]

DamianWarS · May 12, 2023

BobRyan said:
cessation from ordinary secular work

As a servant of Christ I strive to do never do secular work and I only work to serve him.

BobRyan · May 12, 2023

DamianWarS said:
As a servant of Christ I strive to do never do secular work

Eccl 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might;10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might;

2 Thess 3:10 For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.

God counts building a house and digging a ditch as secular work - to be done with all your might. But He does not count it as setting aside work projects for complete devotion on scripture, meditation, worship. As it turns out. Anyone running the vacuum cleaner in the middle of a church service will soon find out that Christians do not approve of that work in church no matter how "spiritually minded" the person is that does it.

This is not as complicated as some would have it.

God's commandment in EX 20:8-11 is not "for six days you should separate yourself from God and do nothing as a servant of Christ".

Rather the text says "for six days YOU shall labor and do ALL your work ... but the seventh day is the Sabbath of YHWH"

Does it make sense to respond with "but I mowed all those lawns during those six days as your servant God - can't I just keep on mowing on your Sabbath and never take any rest from work at all -... ever???"

trophy33 · May 12, 2023

The Old Testament commandments apply to nobody, because the Old testament law was given only to Jews and only till the coming of Christ:

"Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed [i.e. Christ] to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator...
...
Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."
Gal 3, BSB

BobRyan · May 12, 2023

myst33 said:
The Old Testament commandments apply to nobody

Until you read scripture.

In Matt 22 Jesus quotes OT commandments
In James 2 - James quotes OT commandments
In Eph 6:2 Paul quotes OT commandments
In Rom 7 Paul quotes OT Commandments
In Matt 19 when Jesus says "keep the Commandments" and is asked "Which ones?" He quotes exclusively from the LAW of Moses -- OT commandments.

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

myst33 said:
"Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed [i.e. Christ] to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator...
...
Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."
Gal 3, BSB

Gal 3 does not say "when Christ came" it says "when FAITH has come" - which affirms Paul's same point in Rom 3:19 that even to this very day the OT LAW of God condemns all as sinners - as under the curse of that same moral law of God.

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

And AFTER we come to faith - we have a new heart with the Law written on the heart. The same law that says "do not take God's name in vain".

Heb 8 makes it clear -- this is the SAME - NEW Covenant as in Jer 31:31-34

trophy33 · May 12, 2023

BobRyan said:
Until you read scripture.

In Matt 22 Jesus quotes OT commandments
In James 2 - James quotes OT commandments
In Eph 6:2 Paul quotes OT commandments
In Rom 7 Paul quotes OT Commandments
In Matt 19 when Jesus says "keep the Commandments" and is asked "Which ones?" He quotes exclusively from the LAW of Moses -- OT commandments.

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

Gal 3 does not say "when Christ came" it says "when FAITH has come" - which affirms Paul's same point in Rom 3:19 that even to this very day the OT LAW of God condemns all as sinners - as under the curse of that same moral law of God.

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

And AFTER we come to faith - we have a new heart with the Law written on the heart. The same law that says "do not take God's name in vain".

Heb 8 makes it clear -- this is the SAME - NEW Covenant as in Jer 31:31-34

It says "until the arrival of the seed", which is Christ.

It literally and clearly says "we are no longer under the guardian", which was the law.

It also clearly says "we were held in custody under the law", which is the past tense.

expos4ever · May 12, 2023

BobRyan said:
Rom 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

All the world could be deemed guilty - which 3:19 does indeed claim - without all the world being under the Law of Moses. The Gentile world could be found guilty due to the action of God triggering their consciences, for example. The point: the structure and logic of the sentence itself does not require us to conclude that all are under the Law of Moses. You will not be able to make such a case, I guarantee it.

This is a fact that you need to face since it will occur to an objective reader who is even half-awake.

And they will also know that is decidedly odd for Paul to refer to a "those" who are under the Law if, as you claim, he believes all the world is under the law, as "those" normally picks out a subset of something.

Those over 6 feet tall
Those who score more than 80%
Those with red hair

Do we ever say "those human beings with DNA in their cells". Of course we don't, precisely because all human beings have blood in their veins. Again: "those" indicates a subset.

Perhaps you can offer us an example of a statement of the form "those who meet condition X" where "those" refers to all humanity?

DamianWarS · May 13, 2023

BobRyan said:
God counts building a house and digging a ditch as secular work

All work for Christ is redeemed by Christ and is holy. That is the only work I'm interested in. We may save someone in physical distress on the Sabbath or "pull sheep out of pits" but surely you see this has great spiritual implications. Digging a ditch may not help a physical need but it may indeed help a spiritual need. The act can be motivated to show Christ and certainly that is a more noble work than the physical. I'd rather dig along side my neighbour than cross the road and ignore them.

BobRyan · May 13, 2023

DamianWarS said:
All work for Christ is redeemed by Christ and is holy.

And yet - walking up and down the pews with a vacuum cleaner in the middle of church is admitted to being a violation of the "keep it holy" principle for worshipping God. And everyone know it.

This is the easy part.

BobRyan · May 13, 2023

BobRyan said:

Rom 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
23 - ALL have sinned

expos4ever said:
All the world could be deemed guilty

The text says ALL have sinned -- every mouth shut. "By the LAW" of God - comes the knowledge of what sin it.

expos4ever said:
The Gentile world could be found guilty due to the action of God triggering their consciences

The way God informs someone is a separate issue.

Paul does not say "whatever your conscience says" in vs 19. He says "whatever the LAW says".

Paul reminds Timothy that some people are "seared in their conscience".

trophy33 · May 14, 2023

"All", "world", "nobody", "every", "whole" and similar biblical terms are rarely as technical as they may seem when isolated from the rest of the text.

We must read it with being aware of the cultural thinking of the author, of his theological vocabulary and of the context.

For example:
All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing
Col 1:6

"I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some."
1 Cor 9:22

DamianWarS · May 14, 2023

BobRyan said:
And yet - walking up and down the pews with a vacuum cleaner in the middle of church is admitted to being a violation of the "keep it holy" principle for worshipping God. And everyone know it.

This is the easy part.

Vacuuming during an event is disruptive, helping your disabled neighbour mow the lawn is not. It's about the motivation.

Christ shows us what the practice of the 2 greatest commandments are in the Luke 10:25-37 and the focus is put on the loving your neighbour. Loving your neighbour is dynamic and creative, it can't be pinned down to a specific action but it is more about the heart behind the action and how it serves people.

So it's not the vacuuming that is love but the need that it is meeting and if it is an unwanted action then I would question its focus which may be about getting a list done over serving people and would be the wrong spirit.

The disruptive vacuuming is also unwanted on a Tuesday event during as much as it is on the Sabbath event during. So it's not the day that make the act misplaced but the spirit behind the act.

This should be common sense. Most people don't need to be told that vacuuming during an event is a poor choice. And most people can see the benefits of mowing a disabled person's lawn. I'm really not even sure what your point is as it is clear the what the issue is in your vacuuming example but how is that connected to mowing a person in need's lawn?

GDL · May 15, 2023

Rom3:19

Rom1:5 Paul's ministry is to bring the nations - the Gentiles - to faith obedience.
Rom1:18 God's wrath is being revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress truth -
Rom1:19 God has revealed Himself in them - the men of 1:18
Rom1:20-21 men are without excuse because they knew God & did not glorify Him - Paul is already setting up discussion of God's judgment.
Rom1:22-31 these men degenerated into idolatry and extreme sin
Rom1:32 these men know of God's righteous judgment - that they are deserving of death - Paul advances the discussion of God's judgment.
Rom2:1-3 Paul advances discussion re: these men being without excuse - they will not escape God's judgment.
Rom2:4 God in His goodness is providing for repentance for these men.
Rom2:5-6 there is a day of God's righteous judgment when He will judge each man according to his works

WE should already be asking about God's Law as it relates to His righteous judgment of men's works.

Rom2:7 & 2:10 eternal life recompensed to men for good work - whether Jew or Greek
Rom2:8-9 wrath & fury to men who do not obey the truth & obey unrighteousness - whether Jew or Greek
Rom2:11 God is impartial - Jew and Greek will be judged with either eternal life or God's wrath & fury

Law has been inferred, but now is specifically discussed:

Rom2:12 Is explaining God's impartial judgement of all men pursuant to all prior context -

As many men as there are that sinned anomōs will perish anomōs
- This is the only time this word anomōs is used in Scripture - BDAG defines it as "without participation in an organized legal system"
  - IMO this perfectly describes the men who knew God & His righteous judgment of death for their sin and rejection of Him - they simply did not care and chose not to pay attention - to not participate in Him or His Law & judgment
    - Paul says they will simply perish.
    - Earlier in Rom1:21 Paul says their reasoning was rendered worthless & their void of understanding hearts were darkened.
    - In Rom1:28 They did not see the value in having God in experiential knowledge, so God handed them over to their worthless minds.
      - God is judging and at the time He judges in finality - these men will simply perish.
As many men who sinned "in law" will be judged through/by Law
- Rom2:13:
  - Hearers of Law are not righteous/just in God's presence
  - Doers of Law will be declared righteous - justified

So, we have 3 categories of men:

Those who reject God and His Law
Those "in Law" who have not rejected God but only hear God's Law
Those "in Law" who have not rejected God and do God's Law (we should begin thinking of Jesus Christ here)

Rom2:14-16 There are Gentiles who do not have Law (yet we've been told they are "in Law") and they do by nature the things in the Law - they show Law written in their hearts and have functional consciences when God judges them.
Rom2:17-29 Paul deals with law breaking Jews and in Rom2:27 says they have [the] writing yet they are violators.

IMO we have not seen anywhere so far that Law is not for all men. In fact it seems quite the opposite.

Rom3:1-8 Paul continues to deal with the Jew
Rom3:9-18 Jews are no better than Greeks - Paul has already charged both Jews & Greeks to be "under sin" (see Rom2:12 and Paul references Tanakh Scripture for the next 9 verses which speak of the children of men and their wickedness)
Rom3:19 Paul again uses the phrase "in the law" that he set up in Rom2:12 - now he elaborates: the law speaks to those men "in the law" for this purpose: so every mouth can be stopped, and all the world can become liable to God.

Observations:

God's Law applies to all men just as God is the God of all men
Even those who reject God - His Rule - His Law - know that they deserve death for their rejection and sins and hypocrisy - they just don't care - they will simply perish unless they repent.
Those who do not reject God are said to be "in the law" and they will be judged by Law
Paul will not use the phrase "under law" until Rom6:14-15. Galatians provides more detail of the meaning of the phrase.
- But he has already used the phrase "under sin" and says all men are "under sin"
  - So, IMO we should be cautious about what we think "under law" means and who it applies to at this point.
As for the idea that "those in the law" is not tied to "every mouth & all the world" - I'd have to disagree based upon prior context and the purpose or result clause structure of the wording that follows "those in the law". IOW the purpose is directly applicable and telling us why every mouth will be stopped, and all the world will be liable to God, and refers to those in the law - because the Law - in effect, God - has spoken to them.

GDL · May 15, 2023

BobRyan said:
No wonder Almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

And isn't it a shame that there is so much disagreement about one of those 10 among those denominations? What do numbers really mean on the narrow road where it's not crowded?

BobRyan · May 26, 2023

GDL said:
And isn't it a shame that there is so much disagreement about one of those 10 among those denominations?

Not too surprising. The Jews had a "lot of agreement" that Christ was not the Messiah. Getting a lot of people on one side of the debated topic to agree with each other on at least one point is not the impossible task you seem to assume.

But getting Scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic to agree on a glaringly obvious Bible detail regarding the TEN as included in the moral law of God (as noted in my signature line) now that is a "SIGN" -- it just does not get any easier or more obvious than that.

GDL said:
What do numbers really mean on the narrow road where it's not crowded?

Sadly you are missing the point about "objectivity" and the not-so-subtle detail of the case where BOTH sides agree on certain incredibly obvious details in scripture.

I don't know how this is even a little bit confusing.

BobRyan · May 26, 2023

DamianWarS said:
Vacuuming during an event is disruptive

and is not an act of worship or sanctified time set aside for God without any interruption with the mundane secular priorities

BobRyan · May 26, 2023

GDL said:
Observations:

God's Law applies to all men just as God is the God of all men

Even those who reject God - His Rule - His Law - know that they deserve death for their rejection and sins and hypocrisy - they just don't care - they will simply perish unless they repent.

Agreed.

GDL said:
As for the idea that "those in the law" is not tied to "every mouth & all the world" - I'd have to disagree based upon prior context and the purpose or result clause structure of the wording that follows "those in the law". IOW the purpose is directly applicable and telling us why every mouth will be stopped, and all the world will be liable to God,

indeed because in that Rom 3 chapter there are no exceptions -

9 What then? Are we (Jews as custodians of the written word) better than they (gentiles with no history of the Word)? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written:

“There is no righteous person, not even one;
11 There is no one who understands,
There is no one who seeks out God;
12 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good,
There is not even one.”...

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.

23 for ALL have sinned

The context for Tom 3:19 is "no exceptions... not even one" that is the context for "every mouth... all the world".

It just does not get any easier than that.

DamianWarS · May 27, 2023

BobRyan said:
and is not an act of worship or sanctified time set aside for God without any interruption with the mundane secular priorities

Sure, wait until the event is over to vacuum. That's just being polite and applies on the Sabbath as much as it applies on any other day of the week. You're presenting no unique argument for the Sabbath that doesn't also apply to any other day/event. I'm not quite sure the point your making. Sure I agree it's rude to vacuum in the middle of an event, that applies to a town hall meeting as much as it applies to gathering on the Sabbath.

Commandments of God - still apply - to ALL the World, everyone

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