Commandments for Gentiles?

[xDenax]

Believe it or not, I know exactly what you're saying - I'm NOT Jewish but I feel the same way as I observe (or neglect to do such) mitzvot that I am aware of.

Because I'm struggling to understand I pulled these out from my last post. Can you spell out for me where you know exactly what I'm saying? Explain it like I'm a child and haven't a clue about anything. Don't make any assumptions about what I might already know. Assume it's nada.

1. As a Jew I'm obligated
2. Jewish traditions and rituals are vitally important to community cohesion and identity.
3. They are necessary for the functioning of the whole and the continuation of the Jewish people.
4. I do find a lot of meaning in many rituals
5. I feel very odd when skipped
6. It's second nature
7. I do find it's true that one mitzvah leads to others.
8. More in tune with the Jewish cycle and identity
9. I do not want to be a disappointment to the Jewish community
10. I do not want anyone to be judged badly because of something I did or did not do.
11. I want future children to grow up in a house where doing Jewish things is normal.

 

[pat34lee]

Because I'm struggling to understand I pulled these out from my last post. Can you spell out for me where you know exactly what I'm saying? Explain it like I'm a child and haven't a clue about anything. Don't make any assumptions about what I might already know. Assume it's nada.

1. As a Jew I'm obligated
2. Jewish traditions and rituals are vitally important to community cohesion and identity.
3. They are necessary for the functioning of the whole and the continuation of the Jewish people.
4. I do find a lot of meaning in many rituals
5. I feel very odd when skipped
6. It's second nature
7. I do find it's true that one mitzvah leads to others.
8. More in tune with the Jewish cycle and identity
9. I do not want to be a disappointment to the Jewish community
10. I do not want anyone to be judged badly because of something I did or did not do.
11. I want future children to grow up in a house where doing Jewish things is normal.

It sounds like you joined a club and just follow the rules to be like everyone else in it. Unless your focus is on YHWH, you might as well have joined a fraternity or a masonic lodge.

 

[xDenax]

Did I get the gist of what you are saying? You wanted to become a part of the Jewish people to feel a belonging somewhere?

No, I did not need a feeling of belonging since I have a strong family identity and friendships. I simply could not imagine trying to live my life as a non-Jew. I tried. It was not working. I could not do it without being miserable. I felt like there was something massive missing from my life, as if I was trying to turn off a part of myself. I could not relate to the world as a non-Jew any longer and realized that I needed to just go for it.

You believe that the Jews are still on earth today is because they follow rituals and traditions, but not the Mitzvot

That is incorrect. Many of the rituals and traditions of which I'm speaking are mitzvot. [/quote]

If you break a mitzvah you don't feel guilt, but uncomfortable but think you could have done better

I feel guilt but I don't feel as though I am a bad person. I understand that what I did was not unethical in the grand scheme of life but it was inconsistent with living a Jewish life.

I'm cheating a little since I'm so tired and my head feels like it's going to explode. Here is something I wrote previously.

I enjoy the structure of ritual of Judaism. It makes me feel connected to the past and to the Jewish people. It gives meaning to life. Judaism for me is essentially a system of behavior and values unique to the Jewish people. Guidelines for living a good, fulfilling life and keeping some semblance of cohesion with one another. I don't keep kosher because I think it makes God happy. I seriously don't think God cares and may not even be consciously aware that I'm doing it. I do it because that is what Jews do, It's Jewish Law, I'm obligated and it does give positive meaning to my life. I don't avoid cooking on Shabbat because I think God would be angry with me if I did. Again, same reasons.

You could take God out of the equation, prove without a doubt that no gods exist and I would still think Judaism is awesome. I converted to be a part of the Jewish people and to make Judaism my religion. Not the other way around.

(edited to keep with the topic here)

Being a Jew, for me is very much about the Jewish people. I think it should be for everyone and especially for those who choose it.

(edited to keep with the topic here)

If I sat around waiting to do things in love and faith I may never get anywhere. I have to do them when neither love or faith are present. And I guess this is what seems sad to other people. It doesn't feel sad to me. I'm not a spiritual person. I'm not longing for a deep, loving and faith for God. I'm lacking in that area and it doesn't bother me at all. I'm not cold. I'm actually overly emotional and can cry at anything (seriously, I've cried over billboards) but that passionate love for God and faith in him alludes me. I'm not going to sit around and wait for it. It may never come.

 

[xDenax]

It sounds like you joined a club and just follow the rules to be like everyone else in it. Unless your focus is on YHWH, you might as well have joined a fraternity or a masonic lodge.

Thank you for your input. From what I've seen in your posts you are not a big fan of Jewish tradition especially if it concerns anything you find "Rabbinical" so I understand why you would see it this way.

 

[pat34lee]

Thank you for your input. From what I've seen in your posts you are not a big fan of Jewish tradition especially if it concerns anything you find "Rabbinical" so I understand why you would see it this way.

One has nothing to do with the other. I don't believe in following church doctrine either. That doesn't make churches useless. People serve YHWH where they can at the level they understand. Cut him out, and you have a community group, and are still out of covenant (gentile) regardless of blood or title.

 

[xDenax]

One has nothing to do with the other. I don't believe in following church doctrine either. That doesn't make churches useless. People serve YHWH where they can at the level they understand. Cut him out, and you have a community group, and are still out of covenant (gentile) regardless of blood or title.

You've lost me here. Judaism does not cut God out. I may struggle with God but he has not been removed from Judaism. It's sounds like your saying it's useless? Or maybe not. I really don't know what you're saying.

 

[pat34lee]

You've lost me here. Judaism does not cut God out. I may struggle with God but he has not been removed from Judaism. It's sounds like your saying it's useless? Or maybe not. I really don't know what you're saying.

I'm saying that the purposes of Judaism and Christianity were to serve YHWH communally and teach and help each other to serve him.

The traditions of Judaism were not created to keep the community together, though they do that also. They are to remind you every time you see a tzitztit, light a Shabbat candle or read labels at the grocery store that you are set apart to YHWH.

 

[mrs94]

The Noahide Laws were set down in the Talmud so if you have an issue with them, you've got to blame the writers of the Talmud - not Messianics. It isn't true that there aren't any dietary rules. The main law being that you shouldn't tear meat from a living animal. That get's broken down into not causing any unnecessary pain for an animal. You can break that down in all sorts of ways.

As for the difference in dietery laws for Jews and non-Jews the Jewish view is not that non-kosher food isn't dangerous or unhealthy. It's that Jews have their own set of rules because they are Jews. That simple. To eat a home raised rabbit is not "bad" for us but it is not a part of our traditions, culture and our laws. We must exercise constraint in what we eat.

Part of it was probably to deter Jews from eating with non-Jews and therefore doing other things with non-Jews.

Sorry, Dena. I didn't mean to imply what "I" thought of the Noahide Laws. What I was saying is that people that speak of them do not include the dietary laws when I thought that Noah was asked to take clean and unclean animals into the ark.

With what you are explaining about what the Jews understand about kosher laws, I can see that point. For me, I think that if it is unclean for one by the Lord, then it is unclean for all. But, that is just my own humble opinion.

 

[yedida]

No yedida, I do not. My experience is entirely different than yours. I did not have the same background, I did not have the same feelings, I was not taught the things you discuss here, I did not have the same motivations and I did not go through the same mental processes. I was never Messianic. I sincerely do not understand what is being presented here. I am not sure why you think that just because I am a convert I should understand? I do not, which is why I ask so many questions.

My bad then, please pardon me. And I'll try to answer when I can. Sometimes I just can't put certain thoughts into understandable sentences - not really sure if it's cos it's so deep that it's unspeakable or just old age......

 

[yedida]

Messianics believe in the God of the Jews > They believe in Jesus as the Messiah> They believe Jews will be given rewards and from God for being observant > They want rewards> They want to be a part of Israel so they too can be observant and receive rewards and blessings

Is there something I'm omitted or adding here that is incorrect?

I tried to answer this a moment ago and my reply disappeared, so if the system shows two reponses from me - sorry, it was not intentional.
Let's see if I can remember what I was saying....

Ah! I said that I obey because it was commanded that I hear and obey as I walk out my faith in Yeshua. I see in the Bible that Hashem began putting together a people in Abraham and He carried on at Mt. Sinai, all the way to the Mt. of Olives to the Upper Room right on through to the lady who's sitting here talking to you on this forum. He is still building His House and all who call themselves by His Name are called to love and obey Him. That's why I walk out my salvation in Yeshua through obedience to Torah. Sure I fail miserably much of the time and a lot of that is simply that I don't know all the ins and outs, but I'm learning as I go on my journey.

 

[yedida]

This seems a bit off topic...

Messianics believe in Jesus as their savior. They do not think they are trying to earn their salvation.

From my past experience (in the 70s to early 90s, many churches actually taught (I think many still do) that you "Jews" (pardon me, I'm just parrotting what I use to hear) follow the Law in order to earn your "salvation" or "deliverance" (whatever you want to call it). That's why so many Christians today look at Messianics (gentiles mostly) and gasp and throw the accusation at us "Legalists!!! You cannot earn merit by following rules!!"
Go into any church and I'd venture that at least 1/3 of the congregation will think that about Jews and Messianics - that we're trying to earn points with Hashem. But the Messianics (both Jews and gentiles) that I know personally do not believe this in the least. We obey because it was commanded, no other reason.

 

[yedida]

I'm saying that the purposes of Judaism and Christianity were to serve YHWH communally and teach and help each other to serve him.

The traditions of Judaism were not created to keep the community together, though they do that also. They are to remind you every time you see a tzitztit, light a Shabbat candle or read labels at the grocery store that you are set apart to YHWH.

It's kind of cool being in partnership with Hashem as we walk out our faith.

 

[yedida]

Sorry, Dena. I didn't mean to imply what "I" thought of the Noahide Laws. What I was saying is that people that speak of them do not include the dietary laws when I thought that Noah was asked to take clean and unclean animals into the ark.

With what you are explaining about what the Jews understand about kosher laws, I can see that point. For me, I think that if it is unclean for one by the Lord, then it is unclean for all. But, that is just my own humble opinion.

It's finally happening that we are not as alone in those kinds of thoughts as we once were!! There's more and more coming along in this journey of ours!

 

[macher]

From my past experience (in the 70s to early 90s, many churches actually taught (I think many still do) that you "Jews" (pardon me, I'm just parrotting what I use to hear) follow the Law in order to earn your "salvation" or "deliverance" (whatever you want to call it). That's why so many Christians today look at Messianics (gentiles mostly) and gasp and throw the accusation at us "Legalists!!! You cannot earn merit by following rules!!"
Go into any church and I'd venture that at least 1/3 of the congregation will think that about Jews and Messianics - that we're trying to earn points with Hashem. But the Messianics (both Jews and gentiles) do not believe this in the least. We obey because it was commanded, no other reason.

I'd like to add that un-believing Jews don't believe in that either.

 

[yedida]

I'd like to add that un-believing Jews don't believe in that either.

I, personally, no longer refer to Jews who do not believe in Yeshua as "unbelievers." They believe in and love Hashem, they are not unbelievers at all, they have just chosen to reject Yeshua.

 

[ananda]

I, personally, no longer refer to Jews who do not believe in Yeshua as "unbelievers." They believe in and love Hashem, they are not unbelievers at all, they have just chosen to reject Yeshua.

Do you believe that they are saved?

 

[yedida]

Do you believe that they are saved?

That's for Hashem to decide. I can't say yea or nay, only that Isaiah said that all Israel will be saved, so......?????

 

[macher]

That's for Hashem to decide. I can't say yea or nay, only that Isaiah said that all Israel will be saved, so......?????

Read Romans 11. Paul's heart desire is that his brethren in the flesh will be saved. His brethren aren't saved.

 

[visionary]

Read Romans 11. Paul's heart desire is that his brethren in the flesh will be saved. His brethren aren't saved.

Salvation comes at many levels. The unbelievers have many encounters with God stepping in, and about the only time they admit to it, is when they acknowledge Him as their Lord. The Lord saved them from...... goes their story... then comes the acknowledgement and conversion story which is another level of salvation... on and on in our daily lives, our Lord saves us from ourselves and others who wish to do us harm.... In the last day, the day of judgment, will come the salvation for all eternity... and that we have to leave in His hands to decide... As He has many who know not His name but are saved in His books because He knows them. Many who claim to know Him will be cast out, and He will say to them "I never knew you". So let us not take His spot and try to judge by our ways and leave it in His hands on how He will judge it in His Way.

 

[yedida]

Salvation comes at many levels. The unbelievers have many encounters with God stepping in, and about the only time they admit to it, is when they acknowledge Him as their Lord. The Lord saved them from...... goes their story... then comes the acknowledgement and conversion story which is another level of salvation... on and on in our daily lives, our Lord saves us from ourselves and others who wish to do us harm.... In the last day, the day of judgment, will come the salvation for all eternity... and that we have to leave in His hands to decide... As He has many who know not His name but are saved in His books because He knows them. Many who claim to know Him will be cast out, and He will say to them "I never knew you". So let us not take His spot and try to judge by our ways and leave it in His hands on how He will judge it in His Way.

Thank you, Vissy.
I'm not gonna argue this point beyond this one post, but under the view of most "Christians'" interpretation of the Pauliine letters, all of the Jewish people prior to those living beyond Yeshua's resurrection fall under the category of "unsaved." They're just cast to the devil, no ifs, ands or buts.
I'm not willing to do that. If Abraham received "grace" for where he was at in his belief system, and Moses, and David, and Jeremiah, why not those 1000 years ago, those today?
That kind of a line cannot be drawn, especially when it is Hashem Himself that has placed the blinders on His people to begin with. It is in His hands alone how it is to all play out, but we do have His promise that "all Israel shall be saved." I'm happy to leave it at that.