Commandments for Gentiles?

[xDenax]

It doesn't make sense to me that if eating a certain way is bad for Jews, it would not be bad for Gentiles...and, the same with celebrating the Feasts.

Do you know the Jewish view and do you want to know? If you are interested I'll share but if you aren't interested I'll just leave it alone.

 

[ananda]

This debate about Paul being a false prophet has been discussed on here very thoroughly. I am surprised you are not aware of it. The two texts quoted, taken together, in context, make the CF view very clear. I doubt that CF would write what they wrote if they intended to say that one mustn't trust him or his word or if they intended any doubt to exist in what they wrote. It is also the generally accepted view within the MJ fora and so may not be countered by anyone. With respect, your comments are a bit of a nonsense response, as I am sure you must see, with hind-sight.

My purpose is not to state whether or not Paul is or is not a false apostle. I'm simply focusing on the fact that nowhere is it expressly required that one must believe that he is a true apostle.

Which book? The Book

There are many canons called "The Book". Which one are you referring to as the authoritative canon for CF?

 

[Avodat]

My purpose is not to state whether or not Paul is or is not a false apostle. I'm simply focusing on the fact that nowhere is it required that one must believe that he is a true apostle.

There are many canons called "The Book". Which one are you referring to as the authoritative canon for CF?

As already written: Ask Customer Services or a Mod the above questions. I didn't write the rules!!

 

[yedida]

Guys, can we stick to the OP? Let's not derail further? The OP is a guest, trying to get answers!!!

Ah, excuse me Mrs94! Didn't you originally come in here under another icon? or did I lose me mind???? my bad but still we should remain on topic....

 

[xDenax]

Did she? I never know when people change their names and I feel silly asking.

 

[yedida]

Did she? I never know when people change their names and I feel silly asking.

I was thinking so, that's why I'd said she was a guest, then noticed the scroll. So I don't know anymore. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.....

 

[Qnts2]

My purpose is not to state whether or not Paul is or is not a false apostle. I'm simply focusing on the fact that nowhere is it expressly required that one must believe that he is a true apostle.

There are many canons called "The Book". Which one are you referring to as the authoritative canon for CF?

This is a Christian forum, which supports the Nicean Creed. That standardized theology would indicate quite clearly what the NT canon is.

RCC, Orthodox, Protestant, have the same NT canonized scripture so all include the letters written by Paul as scripture. Equal in authority.

Messianic Judaism has the same NT canonized scripture which includes the letters written by Paul. Equal in authority. Messianic Judaism has the same canonized scripture as Protestants.

 

[mrs94]

No, when I joined, I was using the Messianic scroll...that was back in Sept-Oct. I was a member here years ago...but, would not have been interested in this forum then, if it even existed.

Dena, by all mean, please share. I am definitely interested in what you have to say.

Like I said, I was curious about people in other places mentioning laws for gentiles. I know what Acts 15 says and it didn't make any sense to me that Acts implies learning the Torah and then some say that it is split. I understand that there are different laws for priest and men (as well as inhabitants of Israel) than me...but, it seems to me that the majority still applies.

 

[yedida]

No, when I joined, I was using the Messianic scroll...that was back in Sept-Oct. I was a member here years ago...but, would not have been interested in this forum then, if it even existed.

Dena, by all mean, please share. I am definitely interested in what you have to say.

Like I said, I was curious about people in other places mentioning laws for gentiles. I know what Acts 15 says and it didn't make any sense to me that Acts implies learning the Torah and then some say that it is split. I understand that there are different laws for priest and men (as well as inhabitants of Israel) than me...but, it seems to me that the majority still applies.

I agree. It just doesn't make sense that the Father would have 2 sets of rules for the kids of His household. A good earthly father doesn't have several sets of rules (at least not where age-appropriateness is not involved). And if there are two children of similar age, one natural, one adopted, in that earthly home, there are certainly not two sets of rules for them! If there was, discord would run rampant within! And I believe that's exactly what is happening in MJ. We are all being told that there are two sets of rules. Why? Is one group that super special over the other? Is one group just too stupid, or too intelligent? Why would He have two sets of House rules? Hashem is not the author of confusion and discord. One Father, One Savior, one new man, one set of instructions on how to live out our walk of faith.

 

[mrs94]

I agree. It just doesn't make sense that the Father would have 2 sets of rules for the kids of His household. A good earthly father doesn't have several sets of rules (at least not where age-appropriateness is not involved). And if there are two children of similar age, one natural, one adopted, in that earthly home, there are certainly not two sets of rules for them! If there was, discord would run rampant within! And I believe that's exactly what is happening in MJ. We are all being told that there are two sets of rules. Why? Is one group that super special over the other? Is one group just too stupid, or too intelligent? Why would He have two sets of House rules? Hashem is not the author of confusion and discord. One Father, One Savior, one new man, one set of instructions on how to live out our walk of faith.

Totally agree. Also, noone seems to include dietary rules in the Noahide Laws which doesn't make any sense to me. I think it's just more of the same...what can we interpret to NOT apply to us.

 

[Tishri1]

Hi I was called to this thread but with out explaining why soooo I'm kinda scratching my head

Welcome new folks if I haven't met you before and let me guess on the difficulty....

Could it possibly be the Paul issue that pops up?

If so here is the thing

You can believe anything you want about Paul but can't teach that he wasn't a true apostle ( I call this anti Paul teaching for lack of a better description )

Debate his epistles all you want but not in a way that discredits his calling...

Some may read his words and not believe he was MJ but some guy trying to tear apart the body back then or that he was anti Torah but all that is off topic to mainstream MJ teaching and not something to debate here ... We won't mind if you believe it but just don't post those beliefs here.

If that is all then I will return you to your regularly scheduled programming and Happy New Year all!!!

 

[xDenax]

Double Post.

 

[xDenax]

Totally agree. Also, noone seems to include dietary rules in the Noahide Laws which doesn't make any sense to me. I think it's just more of the same...what can we interpret to NOT apply to us.

The Noahide Laws were set down in the Talmud so if you have an issue with them, you've got to blame the writers of the Talmud - not Messianics. It isn't true that there aren't any dietary rules. The main law being that you shouldn't tear meat from a living animal. That get's broken down into not causing any unnecessary pain for an animal. You can break that down in all sorts of ways.

As for the difference in dietery laws for Jews and non-Jews the Jewish view is not that non-kosher food isn't dangerous or unhealthy. It's that Jews have their own set of rules because they are Jews. That simple. To eat a home raised rabbit is not "bad" for us but it is not a part of our traditions, culture and our laws. We must exercise constraint in what we eat.

Part of it was probably to deter Jews from eating with non-Jews and therefore doing other things with non-Jews.

 

[yedida]

Totally agree. Also, noone seems to include dietary rules in the Noahide Laws which doesn't make any sense to me. I think it's just more of the same...what can we interpret to NOT apply to us.

There are many, the obvious, of course, those to do with the land only, Temple, priesthood for starters. then of course, we have those meant for the men only, the women only, the farmers, the bondservants, the head of households, children. Since we no longer conduct wars and battles like in the days of old, those commands would no longer apply (I'm thinking of the one in particular about an Israelite warrier bringing home a woman of the fallen city).
But there are also very many that apply to everyone.

 

[xDenax]

we even have a non-trin Messianic icon. So we don't have to agree with it 100%....

We also have icons for Jews, Muslims, Buddhist and Atheists. That doesn't mean we (speaking of Jews obviously) are allowed to post as freely as others. It could be that the non-Trinitarians are put in our category.

 

[xDenax]

Is one group that super special over the other? Is one group just too stupid, or too intelligent?

Here is where I think you guys run into problems. Having more rules does not mean we're more special or more intelligent. It just means we have more restrictions and when we mess up, we mess up for the entire Jewish people. If you are really eager to be held accountable for messing up on behalf of the entire Jewish people then perhaps you need to re-evalute your life and what's really important to you.

 

[yedida]

Here is where I think you guys run into problems. Having more rules does not mean we're more special or more intelligent. It just means we have more restrictions and when we mess up, we mess up for the entire Jewish people. If you are really eager to be held accountable for messing up on behalf of the entire Jewish people then perhaps you need to re-evalute your life and what's really important to you.

But you also know, having been rasied in it, that Yeshua did not come along to start up a new religion or way of life. He continued to teach Torah. If He was going to change all that, I'm sure He would have indicated as much, but He didn't. He continued to stress the Torah's instructions for a set-apart life and faith system. The only thing He changed was that gentiles could join in and be accepted without offically becoming a party member to any of the practicing Judaic groups or sects (of the day), and that holds true today as well; Messianic Judaism was and still is just another sect of Judaism (even though today it is no longer recognized as such by greater Judaism).

 

[xDenax]

But you also know, having been raised in it, that Yeshua did not come along to start up a new religion or way of life. He continued to teach Torah. If He was going to change all that, I'm sure He would have indicated as much, but He didn't. He continued to stress the Torah's instructions for a set-apart life and faith system.

Jesus spoke to Jews.

The only thing He changed was that gentiles could join in and be accepted without officially becoming a party member to any of the practicing Judaic groups or sects (of the day), and that holds true today as well; Messianic Judaism was and still is just another sect of Judaism (even though today it is no longer recognized as such by greater Judaism).

I'm not sure what point you are making? Did Jesus ever mention this? Didn't joining the people speak of physically joining the people? Sharing similar beliefs is not joining the people. I've been watching an interesting lecture series from Yale on the Hebrew Bible. In the first class the professor mentions the idea that religion to the Isralites differs from the way we perceive it today in the west. Religion here is often very much about beliefs. For the Israelites, you become an Isralites by joining the people and living as one of them, according to traditions and culture. It was nice to hear this understanding even from a scholar and academic.

I still stand by my statements. Messianic Gentiles seem to feel that because we (Jews or other Messianics) believe they are not required to observe the law that it somehow makes them inferior. That having more rules and restrictions makes a person superior or more special God. That is not the case. You simply don't have the obligation.

If my neighbor shops at the local co-op on Saturday buying locally grown organic produce and humanly raised dairy am I better than her because I can't do so? No. Not at all. I am different but I am not better. I shop on Sunday and miss out on the dairy. We're playing different parts in the grand scheme of life but her life has merit and my life has merit.

If someone catches you eating shrimp what are they going to think? Is it going to reflect negatively on the Jewish community? Not likely. If you steal money what affect will that have on the reputation of the Jewish people? None. It will have an effect on your reputation as an individual, perhaps as a person who believes in Jesus and maybe the reputation of your family. If you go on public television and start ranting like a lunatic what will people think of the Jewish community? Nothing.

If someone catches me eating shrimp what are they going to think? She's a hypocrite. She can't even be bothered to adhere to my own religious traditions. She doesn't take Judaism seriously. She doesn't take God seriously. Jews think they've got it right and they don't even follow the rules. If I steal money? Oh, well, everybody knows Jews are greedy. You can't trust Jews with your money. If they can make a dime off you they will do it. If I go on public television ranting like a lunatic? I'm an embarrassment to the Jewish people.

If you truly want to be in the second position then you need to ask yourself why? And then, do you need to change your perspective or change your life?

I hate to see Messianic Gentiles essentially denigrating their position as non-Jews as if it's somehow wrong, unhealthy, inferior or undesirable. This is just not so. Nobody is inferring such when they make the statement that you are not obligated to all of Jewish Law.

 

[yedida]

Jesus spoke to Jews.



I'm not sure what point you are making? Did Jesus ever mention this? Didn't joining the people speak of physically joining the people? Sharing similar beliefs is not joining the people. I've been watching an interesting lecture series from Yale on the Hebrew Bible. In the first class the professor mentions the idea that religion to the Isralites differs from the way we perceive it today in the west. Religion here is often very much about beliefs. For the Israelites, you become an Isralites by joining the people and living as one of them, according to traditions and culture. It was nice to hear this understanding even from a scholar and academic.

I still stand by my statements. Messianic Gentiles seem to feel that because we (Jews or other Messianics) believe they are not required to observe the law that it somehow makes them inferior. That having more rules and restrictions makes a person superior or more special God. That is not the case. You simply don't have the obligation.

If my neighbor shops at the local co-op on Saturday buying locally grown organic produce and humanly raised dairy am I better than her because I can't do so? No. Not at all. I am different but I am not better. I shop on Sunday and miss out on the dairy. We're playing different parts in the grand scheme of life but her life has merit and my life has merit.

If someone catches you eating shrimp what are they going to think? Is it going to reflect negatively on the Jewish community? Not likely. If you steal money what affect will that have on the reputation of the Jewish people? None. It will have an effect on your reputation as an individual, perhaps as a person who believes in Jesus and maybe the reputation of your family. If you go on public television and start ranting like a lunatic what will people think of the Jewish community? Nothing.

If someone catches me eating shrimp what are they going to think? She's a hypocrite. She can't even be bothered to adhere to my own religious traditions. She doesn't take Judaism seriously. She doesn't take God seriously. Jews think they've got it right and they don't even follow the rules. If I steal money? Oh, well, everybody knows Jews are greedy. You can't trust Jews with your money. If they can make a dime off you they will do it. If I go on public television ranting like a lunatic? I'm an embarrassment to the Jewish people.

If you truly want to be in the second position then you need to ask yourself why? And then, do you need to change your perspective or change your life?

I hate to see Messianic Gentiles essentially denigrating their position as non-Jews as if it's somehow wrong, unhealthy, inferior or undesirable. This is just not so. Nobody is inferring such when they make the statement that you are not obligated to all of Jewish Law.

I know they're not, nor do I feel gentiles are inferior or undesirable. Going back to your first paragraph, there are many messianics who would love to join in with the Israelites with the customs and traditions but we are pushed away - so we do the best we can with what little insights we can gather on our own. We're between a rock and a hard place because we have discovered that walking the walk of Yeshua is every bit a lifestyle as it is a belief system. Oh well, when the going gets tough, I yell, "Shopping!!"

 

[xDenax]

there are many messianics who would love to join in with the Israelites with the customs and traditions but we are pushed away

Why do you want to join with a community who [mostly] believes you worship a false god? Why do you so desperately want to be a part of Israel? I think you have to answer those questions first and then go from there.

In your perfect world, what would it look like for you (Messianic Gentiles) to join with the rest of the Jewish community?