Coming out of the theistic evolution closet

I've been lurking here for some time now, and this is my first post. I'm sure none of you care about my background, but to make things clear: I was raised as a fundamentalist Christian, and I went to a very conservative private school during my elementary and middle school years. My teachers were very clear that evolution was an evil ideology, as well as being factually incorrect. This caused me some difficulty in high school, but eventually I realized that the things I was learning in biology made sense. The breakthrough was, oddly enough, the theories on where mitochondria came from. Anyhow, the question is this: how do I tell my parents, friends, and people at my church that I accept the current scientific theories on the origins of diversity in life? I've also got to 'fess up about the Big Bang and an old earth, but that's not part of theistic evolution, so I'll leave it for another thread, I guess. Any good articles, essays, or books?

Glad to have you here.

What kind of articles and books are you looking for?

This is a really tough situation to be in. I've had several friends who face the same kind of problem, and others who have faced similar things. One of my friends was, for at least a couple of years, unable to tell his family that he was Catholic... They would have disowned him.

I have no idea what to suggest. If you can avoid the topic, that may help buy time.

Andreas, I'm not entirely certain what I'm looking for. Perhaps just reading about how others have dealt with the tension between religion and science would be useful. I'd also be interested in hearing how people on this board have dealt with the issue. Even those who never believed in a young earth and literal six-day creation might have people they care about who do. Is it better just never to bring it up?

Elbereth said:

Andreas, I'm not entirely certain what I'm looking for. Perhaps just reading about how others have dealt with the tension between religion and science would be useful. I'd also be interested in hearing how people on this board have dealt with the issue. Even those who never believed in a young earth and literal six-day creation might have people they care about who do. Is it better just never to bring it up?

Click to expand...

This book may help. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060930497/qid=1091518685/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-0080747-1940079?v=glance&s=books&n=507846


I'm sorry, but I don't have any personal experiences with creationists. I used to be one and than I changed. But it was no big deal for me.

What type of church are you going to, that is so anti-science?

It's not really the church that's the problem. At least, I've never heard any preaching one way or the other on creationism/evolution. There was a class based on Darwin's Black Box, which got me interested in biochemistry. I do know that many people at my church believe in young-earth creationism. I also have quite a few Christian friends who are very much against evolution. Most of them go to more fundamentalist churches. They're the ones who tend to be anti-science. One of them criticized me for being too intellectual (he doesn't know I accept evolution).

Oh, and thanks for the book! I'll be sure to check it out.

I was going to recommend that one. Problem is, it's written by a Catholic and the same people who believe that evolution is evil often believe that the Catholic church is heretical anyway.

It's difficult for me to help, really - although there are some YECs in the UK, I've never met any who insist you have to believe it to be a Kosher Christian.

Karl - Liberal Backslider said:

I was going to recommend that one. Problem is, it's written by a Catholic and the same people who believe that evolution is evil often believe that the Catholic church is heretical anyway.

Click to expand...

Yes, finding a "credible" messenger can be a problem.

Elbereth, you might check out this web-site:

http://www.ualberta.ca/~dlamoure/index.htm

Denis Lamoureux is a charismatic, evangelical Christian with professional qualifications in dentistry, biology and theology.

He did most of his theological study at Regent College, a well-known evangelical college, and if you check out his credentials on the site above, it appears he did work especially on the first 11 chapters of Genesis.

This site is a brief article about him from the Regent College student newspaper shortly after he did a presentation there.

http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/bc.cgi?bc/bccn/0300/lmlamoureux

There are a small number of of evangelical Christians who are publicly disowning anti-scientific theology. But I expect their number to grow. Bob Bakker is a Pentecostal preacher who is much more famous for his work on dinosaur paleontology.

http://www.prehistoricplanet.com/features/paleontologists/bakker.htm

People like these may help convince your family and friends that accepting science does not mean rejecting Christianity, or even defecting to a liberal denomination.

Oh, and both sites suggest books you may want to read.

I had the opportunity to have a few beers with Denis Lamoureux one evening a year and a half ago. Pretty interesting guy. In a discussion about the bible or christianity the could talk circles around just about any of the people here who make the claim for biblical literalism. He claims to have convinced more then a few of the fallacy of that notion.

i am in
the exact same situation
i'm a closet TE

it just that i know
my friends & family
(who are all mainly YEC)
won't understand
and think i've become
agnostic or something
and probably feel like
they don't really know me

for me
i'm not so worried
about all the arguments
its just a matter of convincing them
that theistic evolution
isn't a "big deal"

anyone else?

Augustine's famous quote on the matter is a personal favorite.

I go to a fundamentalist church, the generation before mine in the family are day-age creationist, but I let everyone one of them know that when I stick my head up proudly saying 'I am a liberal Christian and a Theistic Evolutionist and despite what you say I have strong faith in the Lord.' and they back down, and remember those who say another person is weak of faith is weak in faith themselves.

Aduro Amnis said:

but I let everyone one of them know that when I stick my head up proudly saying 'I am a liberal Christian and a Theistic Evolutionist and despite what you say I have strong faith in the Lord.' and they back down, and remember those who say another person is weak of faith is weak in faith themselves.

Click to expand...

if i were to say
what u said
and then mention the part
about weak faith
in the fundamentalist church
i attend
they would probably say
i was trying to play
jedi mind tricks on them
or something

Well. I am a YEC. But first and foremost salvation lies with Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the cross and His ressurection, defeating death and sin. Your opinion that is based on man's science of the beginning of the universe does not affect your salvation. I would caution all with this point of view not to fall as many others have when believing evolution. But, if your family and friends love you, then they will still love you. Being a Christian is not about condemning, but rather about loving.

God Bless

Hey Elbereth,

It can be difficult to talk to others about what you believe sometimes. I, as you did, used to be an new-earth creationist, as taught by most Christian teachers these days (at least those of the 'traditional' school of thought). This wasn't really a problem for me; I did not take biology at high-school, and just wrote off evolution as atheistic nonsense. So when I hit university, and mandatory biology papers for my major, having to deal with evolution was a difficult experience for me, as it seemed to go against everything I had believed in before.

It was only when I opened up God's word that I realised that the Bible doesn't really offer any explanation about *how* the world was created, just by *who*. IMO, theistic evolution not only explains science (it conforms to current scientific evidence we have) but also the theological side... the Bible does not say evolution didn't happen. In fact, I believe the theory of evolution explains some at-first confusing problems in Genesis - regarding for instance the creation of the plants (Gen. 11-12) before the sun and the stars (Gen. 14-18), which may seem unusual at first, as plants require light for growth.

The reason why many Christians (IMO) dislike the concept of evolution so much, is that many of its supporters are atheistic, and so they associate evolution (which truthfully defined is simply the process through which organism populations change over time through genetic mutations and selection) with a biased athestic science which supposedly disproves God. Although many evolutionists are atheistic, I think it is perfectly justifiable to believe in evolution and still believe in God. After all, theistic evolution, by its name, teaches God created the Earth, just he did it via evolution and not just the Earth suddenly appearing.

My advice is to pray to the Lord for his guidance, and He will help you find the path. I'd also recommend reading your Bible, so you can show your family / friends if they question you why you believe what you do. Also, try and keep these principles in mind:
a) Although theistic evolution seems to be the right decision for you, remember that the Bible can be interpreted different ways, and 6-day creationism can be justified Biblically.
b) Evolution is a concept of human thought, and as such, it changes often. In another 20 years, maybe evolution will have been discarded, so remain open to other explanations. After-all, for a very long time men thought that the world was flat...
c) Remember that theistic evolution is that... without God, theistic evolution is meaningless. It is Him that created the Earth, it is Him that created the environment within which evolution could have occured, so be thankful for His glory, and I think you shall find the truth.

God Bless,
Alchemist

Oh, and by the way, I don't know where in the world you live, but if you can, try get a copy of 'How Blind Is the Watchmaker?: Nature's Design & the Limits of Naturalistic Science' by Neil Broom (a bio-mechanics engineer at the University of Auckland, New Zealand, and a Christian). It points out some of the inconsistancies of Naturalistic evolution theory (i.e. evolution by nature alone, without God), I found it a good book to find the truth about evolution. After-all, there are still many aspects of science that remain shrouded and controversial, and the field of 'the origin of life' certainly counts as one of these. You should be able to buy the book from a Christian science bookshop perhaps, or its on Amazon if you wish to buy online. A lot of Richard Dawkins afficionados seem to dislike it, maybe this says something?

GodSaves said:

Well. I am a YEC. But first and foremost salvation lies with Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the cross and His ressurection, defeating death and sin. Your opinion that is based on man's science of the beginning of the universe does not affect your salvation. I would caution all with this point of view not to fall as many others have when believing evolution. But, if your family and friends love you, then they will still love you. Being a Christian is not about condemning, but rather about loving.

God Bless

Click to expand...

u know
i'm not really interested
in "converting" my YEC family and friends
i actually think
"diversity" in this area
is a good thing
i just wish
they would all have ur attitude

Alchemist said:

a) Although theistic evolution seems to be the right decision for you, remember that the Bible can be interpreted different ways, and 6-day creationism can be justified Biblically.
b) Evolution is a concept of human thought, and as such, it changes often. In another 20 years, maybe evolution will have been discarded, so remain open to other explanations. After-all, for a very long time men thought that the world was flat...
c) Remember that theistic evolution is that... without God, theistic evolution is meaningless. It is Him that created the Earth, it is Him that created the environment within which evolution could have occured, so be thankful for His glory, and I think you shall find the truth.

Click to expand...

wow
fantastic points
this should be a sticky
in this forum
u get
Card42's gold star sticker
for the day

My own advice would be to keep in the closet! Karl, you are fortunate not to know many YECs in the UK. My congregation has fairly staunch YECs, we even have a class on Christian Evidences right now which I feel is more like 'Taking Pot Shots at Evolutionary Theory'.

Problem is that (some) YECs push their beliefs onto everyone else and claim that you need to believe in a literal Creation account, otherwise how can a literal Christ have ancestry with an allegorical Adam? Thus, they say, your faith is based on made-up characters.

I find that creationists are usually pretty vocal and judgemental when it comes to TE views. The most important point to bear in mind, as GodSaves says, is that your opinion/belief/interpretation of how we came to be has no bearing on your salvation at all - as long as you believe in a resurrected Christ who died for the forgiveness of sins, mostly everything else pales into insignificance.

Kawasakikid - it's a long time since I moved in charismatic and evangelical circles. It sounds from what you're saying that American influences are starting to have an effect both on the size and militancy of the YEC segment.