Gerhard Ebersoehn
Junior Member
You say this because you place Genesis 3 before Genesis 2. Read Genesis in the actual order it is written, and see how your conception here changes.
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Creation Seventh day was not made for man. It was because God had rested from his work of creation.
Paul was speaking of the annual Sabbaths - they were instituted from the start such that they are only celebrated via "sacrifice and offering" -- making them shadows of the coming of Christ
3. I never said that the moral laws and the one that isn't a moral law which is the sabbath wasn't in effect. I said they were not in effect of the Mosaic law and its ethic etc. for it was abolished at the cross
3. In Genesis 2 theventh day is rest but not called the sabbath.
thus saith a wildly speculative post on CF.Creation Seventh day was not made for man.
bobryan,
1. I am happy you understand that it was the hope of a physical resurrection and that is why he endured his sufferings.
Many believe it was about Paul dying to sin or crucifying the flesh which it really isn't.
Dying daily meant putting their life on the line for the cause of Christ
Paul said in Roman's 8 believers are like sheep led to the slaughtered every day. Glad we agree on that . Jerry kelso
3. If you think you understand context then tell me the context of 1 Corinthians 15:30 when Paul said I die daily? Jerry kelso
Without looking and reading, I'd assume it means dying to self. Renewing your mind daily. That would probably include putting off man made traditions and what WE THINK ,vs what God says.
1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" - is about Paul dying to self. If you are wanting to have that discussion - pick 1 Cor 9.
so ALSO -- 2 Corinthians 4:10: Always bearing about in our bodies the dying of the Lord Jesus that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. --
Same point as in 1 Cor 9.
In 1 Cor 15 yes - but in 1 Cor 9 and 2Cor 4 -- no.
Sounds like another topic to me.
So then - 30 minutes ago #1
1. No text in all of scripture says the Commandments of God "were abolished at the cross" and we all know it.
Especially does 2 Corinthians 3:13 no say it. Thus it is still wrong to take God's name in vain -- and we all know it. Even the pro-sunday scholars know it.
It just does not get any easier than this.
2. You are "making up" your own Bible rule when slicing up the Ten Commandments to claim that one of them does not matter. Even Andy Stanley admits that doing such eisgesis - is "taking God's name in vain". If even he gets it - we can all get that easy Bible detail.
James 2 says that the moral law of God is based on "HE who SAID" and not based on "he who makes stuff up in a CF post" -- yet you find nothing at all to support your speculation - and merely post it.
3. the NEW Covenant writes the moral LAW of God known to Jeremiah on the heart and mind. Jeremiah knew about the TEN Commandments.
Even the majority of pro-sunday scholars admit to this.
God Calls it Sabbath - placing the same emphasis on "sanctified" "Made it Holy" as in Ex 20:11 that specifically points at Genesis 2 -- this is irrefutable.
Your claim is in essence that Exodus 20:11 "does not exist" or that "God was wrong in Exodus 20:11 to claim the Sabbath of sinai is the Genesis 2 seventh day".
I prefer the actual Bible to just making stuff up on CF.
thus saith a wildly speculative post on CF.
By contrast
Jesus said in Mark 2:27; the sabbath was made for man.
Hint: read the actual Sabbath commandment in Ex 20:8-11 and you will find not one reference to "manna as origin" but rather to Genesis 2 as origin. You have placed you extreme speculation in direct contrast to the most clear text in all of scripture.
Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??
Choose the Bible "instead"
The seventh day and the Jewish Sabbath can be on the same day but it was not given to men at creation. You can say it's origin in the light of a day of rest was derived from creation but it was not given to man till the Jewish Seventh which was called Sabbath. The seventh day is never called Sabbath in these passages for that reason.
bobryan,
1. The Mosaic law was abolished plainly in 2 Corinthians 3:13. Read the whole chapter.
Romans 6 requires obedience to the word of God - under grace.
Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the LAW by our faith? God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"
And 1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" even in the NT -- still
In Romans 3:19-20 Paul explains the term "UNDER the LAW" means condemned by the LAW as a sinner and going to hell.
So then in Romans 6 the point is made for those who are under the Gospel and no longer going to hell. Does Paul say in Romans 6 that continued rebellion against the LAW of God is going to work for Christians??
So then Romans 6 "Under the LAW" vs "Under Grace"
Rom 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
..
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
1 Cor 6
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"
1. The Mosaic law was abolished plainly in 2 Corinthians 3:13. Read the whole chapter.
2. The Ten Commandments with specific judgements according to the Mosaic law were abolished. 2Corinthians 3.
2 Corinthians chapter 3
The context from the start is the contrast between the 10 Commandments “law written on tablets of stone” externally – vs the New Covenant “law written on the tablets of the human heart”.
2 you are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
The subject is the contrast between the use of the law in the Old Covenant and the new - notice that both the old and New Covenant are the subjects of 2Cor3.
2Cor 3
vs 6 "who also made us adequate as servants of a New Covenant"
Where the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31-33 writes that LAW "on the heart and mind". It is the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - the Law that defines what sin is - that is written on the heart and mind in Jeremiah 31.
That Law included things like "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 - and it still does include that commandment.
It also includes the 5th commandment as "the first commandment with a promise" Ephesians 6:2 - in that still-valie unit of TEN.
Such that Paul can ask this question "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31
Thus it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain - Exodus 20:7
vs 14 "until this very day at the reading of the Old Covenant the same veil remains unlifted because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart. But whenever a man turns to the Lord the veil is taken away"
(notice it does not say whenever they stop reading Moses the veil is taken way - rather when they turn to the Lord (the one true God) they can read Moses with the veil taken away.)
This contrast of outward focus in the Old Covenant and inward in the New Covenant is amplified in these words regarding the law
"you are a letter of Christ cared for by us written not with ink, but wih the spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone (- 10 Commandments external on stone) but on tablets of the human heart" 2Cor 3:3 that which is written outwardly on "tablets of stone" in the Old Covenant (God's law) is written inwardly "on tablets of the human heart" under the New Covenant.
Romans 3:19-21 external on stone - they still condemn the entire world - "every mouth shut" they still define what sin is - according to Romans 3.
God further makes the same New Covenant point in Hebrews 8 "I will write my laws upon their hearts" Heb 8:10 --- which is a repeat of Jeremiah 31:33 where the term law in it's highest purest form is the law for Jeremiah written on tablets of stone (as Paul tells us).
So when God speaks these words to his prophet about writing inwardly that which the infinite unchanging creator God calls "law" (inwardly on the heart) - the context demands that we consider the 10 Commandments as the primary reference. James 2 is in full agreement with this giving us examples of the "law" of God - as "the law of liberty" - and the examples are simply excerpts from the law written on tablets of stone. (do not murder, and do not commit adultery).
Romans 2 makes it clear that real Christians "show that the work of the law is written on their hearts"
Romans 2:15. Regarding pagans who have no scripture but "do instinctively the things of the law" ..."for when gentiles who do not have the law - do instinctively the things of the law..."
- clearly it is the same law
of the infinite unchanging creator God which they do not have outwardly, but do have it written on their heart inwardly. That same law is expanded and shown to be the same outward law of the Jews in this same chapter "if therefore the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? And will not he who is physically uncircumcised if he keeps the law will he not judge you though having the letter of the law and physically circumcised - as a transgressor of the law"
"for he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that which is of the heart - by the spirit -- not by the letter". Rom 2:26-29
and of course the Romans view of what the law is - is the same as the “tablets of stone” we find in 2Cor 3—for Romans quotes from it.
Rom 7:
- 7 what shall we say then? Is the law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, i would not have come to know sin except through the law; for i would not have known about coveting if the law had not said, "" you shall not covet.''
8 but sin, taking opportunity through the Commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the law; but when the Commandment came, sin became alive and i died;
10 and this Commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
-
(Note: Paul also calls the law "scripture" -
- Gal 3:21 is the law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22 but the scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
)
Ephesians 6:2 - is that 10 Commandment unit written on tablets of stone - whose "first Commandment with a promise" according to Paul - is the 5th Commandment to honor parents.
2Cor 3:
5 not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a New Covenant, not of the letter but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Clearly the Gospel - New Covenant is the alternative to death - to that which kills. Only one gospel, only one way of salvation. The New Covenant.
- And the key to this is the fact that the spirit of God is working on the "tablets of the human heart" with the law that would otherwise simply be written on "tablets of stone".
-
2Cor 3
7 but if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how will the ministry of the spirit fail to be even more with glory?
as even Romans 3:19-21 states the moral law of God is indeed the minister of death for it condemns all mankind under sin. Still does - even after the cross. So that all will have the need of the Gospel.
Again the contrast - death vs life. While the law is not written on the heart - while it is simply external - engraved on stone, it only serves to
condemn us. Paul made this very clear in Romans. "the wages of sin is death". God's scripture has placed all men under sin. Romans 3, Gal 3.
- The law is not a "means of salvation" - but the New Covenant does something with the law of God - it writes it on the "tablets of the human heart" -
no longer merely "external" but part of the transformed "new creation" old things passed away - saints "obeying from the heart".
==================
False doctrine says that Moses is the author of the Old Covenant and that at the reading of Paul there is a veil over their eyes who are stuck under Moses and the Old Covenant.
In the Bible says it is Moses they are not seeing clearly when they read scriptures written by Moses - if they are under the Old Covenant.
In the Bible it is Moses and Elijah that stand WITH Christ in glory in Matt 17.
False doctrine says that "some other gospel - not the one preached by Christ before the cross - is to be proclaimed through all the world"
But in Matt 10 it is "THIS Gospel of the kingdom" that is to be preached long after the cross - into all the world. That pre-cross Gospel.
In Mark 7:6-13 it is the Gospel of Christ that is upholding Moses' teaching saying that "Moses said" = "Word of God" = "Commandment of God"
Notice how Jesus "gets down to the smallest details" when it comes to those trying to edit/downsize/side-step" even one sliver of His Ten Commandments.
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye
Notice that "Moses said", "Word of God", "Commandment of God" ... are all in one category -- while "your tradition' and "your own tradition" and "tradition of men" are in another category --- according to Christ.
3. I have already shown that creation's Seventh day was not for man but God
I have already shown that the sabbath was given to the Jews before Mt. Sinai.
This goes along with Jesus saying the sabbath was made for man.
It was made in commemoration of the Red Sea deliverance.
Mainly because I'm n the middle of another study and dropping what I'm doing to argue with you is not on the top of my list.......right now.sabbathkeeper&wife,
You are incorrect.
Why didn't you read it? Jerry kelso
utterly false - you did "claim it" but you never showed it to be true and Christ flatly condemned your doctrine in Mark 2:27 saying that "it was MADE for MANKIND and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" speaking of the "making of both" -- which is distinctly in Genesis 1-2.
Thus we have the Sinai command pointing at Genesis 2 - just when you claim it should not.
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
You have mangled into "God made it for Himself to observe" and not man - by resting and sanctifying that day. But GOD says He made if for MAN to observe by resting and sanctifying it.
Then you post as if your own wild assertions and speculations should substitute-for-scripture with us??
Were we simply "not supposed to notice'??
Please be serious.
So also is the NEW Covenant given to them - read Hebrews 8:6-10
So also the TEN commandments given to them - read Exodus 20:1
It was made in commemoration of the Creation week - see Exodus 20:11
Hint - Exodus 20:11 comes before Deut 5 and Deut 5 says to recall and do all that was already commanded -
Better to read and accept the Bible - mangling it will not be compelling.
3. I have already shown that creation's Seventh day was not for man but God
I have already shown that the sabbath was given to the Jews before Mt. Sinai.
This goes along with Jesus saying the sabbath was made for man.
It was made in commemoration of the Red Sea deliverance.
bobryan,
1. There you go again misunderstanding what I said and thus accusing me wrong.
2 Corinthians chapter 3
The context from the start is the contrast between the 10 Commandments “law written on tablets of stone” externally – vs the New Covenant “law written on the tablets of the human heart”.
2 you are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
The subject is the contrast between the use of the law in the Old Covenant and the new - notice that both the old and New Covenant are the subjects of 2Cor3.
2Cor 3
vs 6 "who also made us adequate as servants of a New Covenant"
Where the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31-33 writes that LAW "on the heart and mind". It is the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - the Law that defines what sin is - that is written on the heart and mind in Jeremiah 31.
That Law included things like "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 - and it still does include that commandment.
It also includes the 5th commandment as "the first commandment with a promise" Ephesians 6:2 - in that still-valie unit of TEN.
Such that Paul can ask this question "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31
Thus it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain - Exodus 20:7
vs 14 "until this very day at the reading of the Old Covenant the same veil remains unlifted because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart. But whenever a man turns to the Lord the veil is taken away"
(notice it does not say whenever they stop reading Moses the veil is taken way - rather when they turn to the Lord (the one true God) they can read Moses with the veil taken away.)
This contrast of outward focus in the Old Covenant and inward in the New Covenant is amplified in these words regarding the law
"you are a letter of Christ cared for by us written not with ink, but wih the spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone (- 10 Commandments external on stone) but on tablets of the human heart" 2Cor 3:3 that which is written outwardly on "tablets of stone" in the Old Covenant (God's law) is written inwardly "on tablets of the human heart" under the New Covenant.
Romans 3:19-21 external on stone - they still condemn the entire world - "every mouth shut" they still define what sin is - according to Romans 3.
God further makes the same New Covenant point in Hebrews 8 "I will write my laws upon their hearts" Heb 8:10 --- which is a repeat of Jeremiah 31:33 where the term law in it's highest purest form is the law for Jeremiah written on tablets of stone (as Paul tells us).
So when God speaks these words to his prophet about writing inwardly that which the infinite unchanging creator God calls "law" (inwardly on the heart) - the context demands that we consider the 10 Commandments as the primary reference. James 2 is in full agreement with this giving us examples of the "law" of God - as "the law of liberty" - and the examples are simply excerpts from the law written on tablets of stone. (do not murder, and do not commit adultery).
Romans 2 makes it clear that real Christians "show that the work of the law is written on their hearts"
Romans 2:15. Regarding pagans who have no scripture but "do instinctively the things of the law" ..."for when gentiles who do not have the law - do instinctively the things of the law..."
- clearly it is the same law
of the infinite unchanging creator God which they do not have outwardly, but do have it written on their heart inwardly. That same law is expanded and shown to be the same outward law of the Jews in this same chapter "if therefore the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? And will not he who is physically uncircumcised if he keeps the law will he not judge you though having the letter of the law and physically circumcised - as a transgressor of the law"
"for he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that which is of the heart - by the spirit -- not by the letter". Rom 2:26-29
and of course the Romans view of what the law is - is the same as the “tablets of stone” we find in 2Cor 3—for Romans quotes from it.
Rom 7:
- 7 what shall we say then? Is the law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, i would not have come to know sin except through the law; for i would not have known about coveting if the law had not said, "" you shall not covet.''
8 but sin, taking opportunity through the Commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the law; but when the Commandment came, sin became alive and i died;
10 and this Commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
-
(Note: Paul also calls the law "scripture" -
- Gal 3:21 is the law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22 but the scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
)
Ephesians 6:2 - is that 10 Commandment unit written on tablets of stone - whose "first Commandment with a promise" according to Paul - is the 5th Commandment to honor parents.
2Cor 3:
5 not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a New Covenant, not of the letter but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Clearly the Gospel - New Covenant is the alternative to death - to that which kills. Only one gospel, only one way of salvation. The New Covenant.
- And the key to this is the fact that the spirit of God is working on the "tablets of the human heart" with the law that would otherwise simply be written on "tablets of stone".
-
2Cor 3
7 but if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how will the ministry of the spirit fail to be even more with glory?
as even Romans 3:19-21 states the moral law of God is indeed the minister of death for it condemns all mankind under sin. Still does - even after the cross. So that all will have the need of the Gospel.
Again the contrast - death vs life. While the law is not written on the heart - while it is simply external - engraved on stone, it only serves to
condemn us. Paul made this very clear in Romans. "the wages of sin is death". God's scripture has placed all men under sin. Romans 3, Gal 3.
- The law is not a "means of salvation" - but the New Covenant does something with the law of God - it writes it on the "tablets of the human heart" -
no longer merely "external" but part of the transformed "new creation" old things passed away - saints "obeying from the heart".
==================
False doctrine says that Moses is the author of the Old Covenant and that at the reading of Paul there is a veil over their eyes who are stuck under Moses and the Old Covenant.
In the Bible says it is Moses they are not seeing clearly when they read scriptures written by Moses - if they are under the Old Covenant.
In the Bible it is Moses and Elijah that stand WITH Christ in glory in Matt 17.
False doctrine says that "some other gospel - not the one preached by Christ before the cross - is to be proclaimed through all the world"
But in Matt 10 it is "THIS Gospel of the kingdom" that is to be preached long after the cross - into all the world. That pre-cross Gospel.
In Mark 7:6-13 it is the Gospel of Christ that is upholding Moses' teaching saying that "Moses said" = "Word of God" = "Commandment of God"
Notice how Jesus "gets down to the smallest details" when it comes to those trying to edit/downsize/side-step" even one sliver of His Ten Commandments.
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye
Notice that "Moses said", "Word of God", "Commandment of God" ... are all in one category -- while "your tradition' and "your own tradition" and "tradition of men" are in another category --- according to Christ.
bobryan,
1. There you go again misunderstanding what I said and thus accusing me wrong.
2. Can you show me in Genesis 2 that says God made man for the sabbath at that time?
The seventh day became the sabbath for man given by God before the the law at Mt. Sinai Exodus 16:29-30.
Deuteronomy 5:15 said the Sabbath was given to commemorate coming out of Egypt and deliverance by the Red Sea.
3. Hebrews 8:6 has been fulfilled. Verses 7-13 about Israel the nation has not been fulfilled.
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