Col.2{16} uhhh...cording to scripture

[bugkiller]

Interesting that a thread can go on for 8 pages now over one Scripture verse that really is pretty clear.

Just reviving a merry-go-round.

bugkiller

 

[Juelrei]

Theres so many scriptures that speak about the meat and drink off the new moons, feast days and sabbaths. Why are they ignored? Scripture will interpret scripture. Seems that Col.2{16} has been interpreted by man alone. So what does that scripture say uhhh....cording to scripture.

The gentile Christian is not required to follow the dictates of the Jewish moeds.

Colos.2:16 was written by the apostle Paul, a Jew, to gentile Christians. Under the Jewish laws a gentile is not required to follow the Jewish laws unless they want to become a Jewish proselyte, and as such be required to follow all Jewish observances and laws.

Gentile Christians are not proselytes. But follow the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ. Under the covenant of grace which God set up through Jesus Christ, we are free from all the Jewish laws which have a curse, perpetual guilt and condemnation connected with them.

However, we can learn about the moeds and their function, and purpose. There are other minor ones but regarding the main ones that God specifically gave the Jews. Each of them are shadows that point to a substance, fulfilling of/by Christ.

For instance, Passover was fulfilled in the crucifixion of Jesus. Pentecost was fulfilled 50 days after Jesus resurrection.

The next moed to be fulfilled is Rosh HaShanah. This is the only moed that involves a new moon. According to Jewish history, it does not start until two witnesses observe the first sliver of light on the moon. Until the sliver of light is seen, it's called "the time which no one knows". Hence the phrase Jesus used "No man knows the day or hour". Thus he points to this moed as when he will come for the church.

In the Revelation 4:1 is mentioned an aspect of Rosh HaShanah. The open door to heaven, thus a reference of the rapture of the church.
Another aspect is the resurrection of the dead. According to 1Thessalonians4:13-18, that is a part of the upcoming rapture that the church is looking forward to.

The next to be fulfilled is Sukkot or Tabernacles. A part of this is the holding of palm branches in their hands. The people of Jesus day celebrated it at the time of his entry riding a donkey. There is also a mention in Revelation of those in heaven having palm branches in their hands.
This moed will be fulfilled after Jesus second coming. It's also called the Millennium. It is the Sabbath of the Lord.

 

[usexpat97]

I just want to make sure I've got this straight: people are calling us sinners because we observe God's Sabbath every seventh day, but the seventh day is Sunday instead of Saturday. We reply with Colossians 2:16. And THEY are telling US that WE are too obsessed with one Scripture???

 

[Eph4:26]

. . . What was nailed to the cross was not the Law, but the list of our offenses against it.. . .

I disagree.

IMHO, what is nailed to the cross in Col. 2:14 is the traditions of men.

Matt. 15:3-6, "And (Jesus) answered and said to them, 'And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, Honor your father and mother, and, He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death 5But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or mother, Anything of mine you might have been helped by has been given to God, 6he is not to honor his father or his mother. And thus you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition."

Mark 7:8-9, "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men. 9He was also saying to them, You nicely set aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition."

Col. 2:8, "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."

Col 2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The word ‘decrees’ in the orignal greek text is the word dogma. What Paul was saying is the rituals, or traditions have been done away with.

Colossians 2:16
So don't let anyone judge you because . . .

Paul further makes his point that traditions are superfluous in Romans 14:17 . .

14:17 - for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking (context -- doing rituals), but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Clare73]

I disagree.

IMHO, what is nailed to the cross in Col. 2:14 is the traditions of men.

Your opinion is not in agreement with the text you present following:

Col 2:14
"having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

The word ‘decrees’ in the orignal greek text is the word dogma. What Paul was saying is the rituals, or traditions have been done away with.

No, what Paul is saying is that the Mosaic law has been set aside as the way to God.

Grammatically, the operative words are "certificate of debt," and the following words are in apposition to it.

The "certificate of debt" in the Greek is a phrase used for a certificate of debt in the debtor's own handwriting.

The "decrees against us, which was hostile to us" are the condemnation of the Law for all imperfect obedience.

Jesus' death on the cross cancelled out the debt incurred under the law for imperfect obedience to it.

Your disagreement is with apostolic teaching.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[WailingWall]

Does your "baloney" detector not work?

In the faith,
Clare

Yes it works. It goes off if it detects swines flesh.

 

[Yab Yum]

Lots of heat and no light as usual.

"The hand-writing of the decree which was against us, which was contrary to us" is not the same thing as "the moral law".

"Cheipographon" does not mean "written code" as in NIV. It means "certificate of debt" as in NASB. in other word, it is a record of debt, like a credit card bill.

The “demands” or statuatory implications of the handwritten record are only those of debt, not those of the Mosaic Law.
Colossians 2:14 and Paul’s Letter Carriers – Catholic Bible Student | Catholic Bible Student - A Blog About the Bible, Catholicism and the Habit of Study

ceirografon:
a note of hand or writing in which one acknowledges that money has either been deposited with him or lent to him by another, to be returned at the appointed time
Cheirographon - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

 

[Clare73]

[10] YE OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS.
[11] I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Galatians 4 says nothing about sabbaths or feast days.

Gal 4:6 speaks of weak and beggarly elements of the law, which
have been set aside because they were weak and useless to obtain righteousness (Heb 7:8-9).

-----

Its speaking of those who observe times.

Yes, the Feasts were times, as much as eight-day times.

DEUT.18 [9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.[10] There shall not be found among you any one that. . .useth divination, OR AN OBSERVER OF TIMES, or an enchanter, or a witch,[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Its speaking of the occult.

Does your "baloney" detector not work?

Yes it works. It goes off if it detects swines flesh.

It seems to have missed it in that assertion that believers in Jesus Christ in Galatia were practicing the occult.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Eph4:26]

Your opinion is not in agreement with the text you present following:

Col 2:14
"having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."


No, what Paul is saying is that the Mosaic law has been set aside as the way to God. . . .

Are you familiar with the oral tradition of the Halakha?

 

[Clare73]

No, what Paul is saying is that the Mosaic law has been set aside as the way to God.

The weak and beggarly elements (Gal 4:6) of the law
have been set aside because they were weak and useless to obtain righteousness (Heb 7:18-19).

Are you familiar with the oral tradition of the Halakha?

Is it the authoritative word of God in Scripture?
It will have no bearing for me if it is not.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[WailingWall]

Interesting that a thread can go on for 8 pages now over one Scripture verse that really is pretty clear.

COL. 2 [16] Let no man therefore judge you in MEAT, or in DRINK, or in respect of an HOLYDAY, or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAYS:

You say you understand Col.2{16}

EZEKIEL 45 [17] And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and MEAT offerings, and DRINK offerings, in the FEASTS, and in the NEW MOONS, and in the SABBATHS, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Zeke 45 in same exact order meat, drink, holy day, new moon and sabbath. Obviously speaking of the same thing. Zeke was written to the house of Israel.

Can you easily explain that?

 

[usexpat97]

Can you easily explain that?

Can? Yes. But I'm going to exercise my right not to. No verbose, roundabout "interpretations" of Colossians 2:16 are necessary--it is very straightforward and self-explanatory on its own two feet.

 

[WailingWall]

Can? Yes. But I'm going to exercise my right not to. No verbose, roundabout "interpretations" of Colossians 2:16 are necessary--it is very straightforward and self-explanatory on its own two feet.

Good call. The explanation would probably sound like....

MATT.12 [39] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:[40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH.

The explanations i get when i ask how good friday till sunday morn equals 3 days and 3 nights.

 

[usexpat97]

Well I can assure you, the explanation would sound nothing like that.

 

[WailingWall]

OK Usexpat97

Have good night

 

[JohnRabbit]

Gal 4:6 speaks of the weak and beggarly elements of the law,
which have been set aside because they are weak and useless to obtain righteousness (Heb 7:18-19).

actually, it's gal 4:9 and it's not refering to the law, so you're association to heb 7:18-19 is unfounded!

here's why:

Galatians 4:3,9(NKJV)
3Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world... 9But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?

see?

gal 4:9 is referencing verse 3 where it said we are under the bondage of the elements of the world not the law!

however, heb 7:18-19 is referencing verse 16, of the same chapter, which is speaking of Christ:

Hebrews 7:16(NKJV)
16who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.


the fleshly commandment, IOW, the ceremonial ritualistic law.

no amount washing could make you "clean", as the act was symbolic of the Holy Spirit to come as with all the "works of law" that took physical labor to accomplish!

that's why paul said:

Galatians 2:16(NKJV)
16knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

and this can be extended to the spiritual law, the ten commandments, because no amount of commandment keeping saves anyone!

only Jesus saves!

 

[Clare73]

actually, it's gal 4:9

So 'tis. . .I stand corrected.

and it's not refering to the law, so you're association to heb 7:18-19 is unfounded!

Oh, but 'tis.

"Tell me, you who want to be under the law. . ." (Gal 4:21)

here's why:

Galatians 4:3,9(NKJV)
3Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world... 9But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?

trivial elements = elemental forms of religion, whether those of the Jews (v.5, under the law) or
those of the Gentiles (v.8, under their former religious bondage)

of the world = these forms of religion do not come from the "new creation" (6:15), but the former creation

So which group is returning to their former trivial elements?

That is answered in v. 21: "Tell me, you who want to be under the law. . ."

Paul then gives an analogy of the law to Hagar, the slave, and concludes with: "Get rid of the slave woman (the law)
and her son (salvation by law-keeping), for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance
with the free woman's son (salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ).

Paul is treating of the law here, which is likewise treated of in Heb 7:18-19:

"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect/righteous),
and a better hope (new covenant) is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Heb 7:18-19)

however, heb 7:18-19 is referencing verse 16, of the same chapter, which is speaking of Christ:

No, Heb 7:18-19 is referencing v.12:
"For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law."

The subject of Heb 7:18-19 is pretty clear:
"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect/righteous)
and a better hope (new covenant of grace) is introduced"

So from Gal 4:21, we see that Paul is referring to the trivial elements of the Jews in Gal 4:9, which was the law,
[v.10, you are observing special days (Firstfruits, Trumpets, Atonement),
months (new moons), seasons (harvest feasts: Firstfruits, Weeks, Tabernacles), years (Sabbath years)]
and we see that the association of Gal 4:9 with Heb 7:18-19 is Biblically well founded.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[bugkiller]

COL. 2 [16] Let no man therefore judge you in MEAT, or in DRINK, or in respect of an HOLYDAY, or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAYS:

You say you understand Col.2{16}

EZEKIEL 45 [17] And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and MEAT offerings, and DRINK offerings, in the FEASTS, and in the NEW MOONS, and in the SABBATHS, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Zeke 45 in same exact order meat, drink, holy day, new moon and sabbath. Obviously speaking of the same thing. Zeke was written to the house of Israel.

Can you easily explain that?

So what does it have to do with Christianity? Israel is not the Chruch and the Church is not Israel.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

actually, it's gal 4:9 and it's not refering to the law, so you're association to heb 7:18-19 is unfounded!

here's why:

Galatians 4:3,9(NKJV)
3Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world... 9But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?

see?

gal 4:9 is referencing verse 3 where it said we are under the bondage of the elements of the world not the law!

Would you kindly give us some examples of what you are talking about? How about parsing your passage?

however, heb 7:18-19 is referencing verse 16, of the same chapter, which is speaking of Christ:

Hebrews 7:16(NKJV)
16who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.


the fleshly commandment, IOW, the ceremonial ritualistic law.

no amount washing could make you "clean", as the act was symbolic of the Holy Spirit to come as with all the "works of law" that took physical labor to accomplish!

that's why paul said:

Galatians 2:16(NKJV)
16knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

and this can be extended to the spiritual law, the ten commandments, because no amount of commandment keeping saves anyone!

only Jesus saves!

bugkiller

 

[JohnRabbit]

So 'tis. . .I stand corrected.

Oh, but 'tis.

"Tell me, you who want to be under the law. . ." (Gal 4:21)



trivial elements = elemental forms of religion, whether those of the Jews (v.5, under the law) or
those of the Gentiles (v.8, under their former religious bondage)

of the world = these forms of religion do not come from the "new creation" (6:15), but the former creation

So which group is returning to their former trivial elements?

That is answered in v. 21: "Tell me, you who want to be under the law. . ."

Paul then gives an analogy of the law to Hagar, the slave, and concludes with: "Get rid of the slave woman (the law)
and her son (salvation by law-keeping), for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance
with the free woman's son (salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ).

Paul is treating of the law here, which is likewise treated of in Heb 7:18-19:

"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect/righteous),
and a better hope (new covenant) is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Heb 7:18-19)

No, Heb 7:18-19 is referencing v.12:
"For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law."

The subject of Heb 7:18-19 is pretty clear:
"The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect/righteous)
and a better hope (new covenant of grace) is introduced"

So from Gal 4:21, we see that Paul is referring to the trivial elements of the Jews in Gal 4:9, which was the law,
[v.10, you are observing special days (Firstfruits, Trumpets, Atonement),
months (new moons), seasons (harvest feasts: Firstfruits, Weeks, Tabernacles), years (Sabbath years)]
and we see that the association of Gal 4:9 with Heb 7:18-19 is Biblically well founded.

In the faith,
Clare

i don't get it!

of course the jews could relate to the "elements of the world", being that they lived in it.

he is talking to a mixed group of gentiles and jews, and some of what he was saying pertained to them respectively.

look at verse 8, for example, it could not be referring to the jew. the jews knew God through the written word and their tradition. and, they certainly didn't serve those that are by nature not God's.

the scripture says "elements of the world" and not the law, we know this because God's law is not of this world, for it is from God Himself.

verse 10 applies to the gentiles, given that no one can show, with any verse in the bilble, that does away with any of God's holy days!