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col 2:16 the accurate interpretation and the final word on the text

Adventist Dissident

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Here I think essentially all the key points of your central thesis are presented in a couple of sentences. So I will look at these sentences and then go from there if needed in a more broad fashion after you respond.

The Abrahamic and Mosaic covenant both include circumcision. However, I do not think that Paul is desirous of gentiles being under the Mosaic covenant. Rather he stresses the Abrahamic covenant, because it is the one associated with the promise. He in fact contrasts the promise to Abraham with the later introduced law, as he sees them playing different functions.

A key text is Romans 4.

Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.
Rom 4:11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,
Rom 4:12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.


Paul's emphasis is that it is faith, not circumcision that saves. And note that here he indicates the promise received by faith is the key point, not the law.


Rom 4:14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.
Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,



Both the Gentile believers and Israelite believers are offspring of Abraham by faith, not just the adherents of the law.

This is spelled out in more detail in Galatians 3. While you correctly cite this passage to indicate that circumcision is not needed for salvation, I do not think it gives credence to the notion that Gentiles would keep the mosaic covenant.

Gal 3:15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified.
Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.
Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.


The covenant was made with Abraham. Again Paul gives preference to Abrahamic covenant as the source of salvation. The covenant with Abraham included promises, among those that all the world would be blessed through Abraham's seed. The law, introduced later--the Mosaic law--does not change the covenant made with Abraham. It does not void the promise, and the requirements of law are not added to the promises as the covenant was already ratified. The inheritance comes through the promise to Abraham, without resort to the law given to Moses.

He then clarifies the purpose of the law:

Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.


The law was given UNTIL the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made.


Gal 3:20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,


The law was not opposed to the promise, but also did not replace it. And it was added as a guardian UNTIL Christ came. Now that faith has come, we are not under the guardian--which is the law.


Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.


Through faith we are all in Christ Jesus' and therefore Abraham's offspring, and heirs by the promise.

It is not by law.

Now Galatians 5 spells out another important piece of the puzzle.

Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.


It is your contention that the gentiles were circumcised in Christ so they could then be part of the benefits and obligations of the Mosaic covenant. However here Paul specifically says if you accept circumcision (physical) you will be obligated to keep the whole law. Now his main point is that if you circumcise yourself in order to comply with the law for salvation you are showing that you are trying to earn salvation rather than accepting it by faith through Christ. Therefore, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

However, he also says if you accept circumcision then you will be obligated to the whole law--but this is what you are saying they are already obligated to. Paul does not agree. Gentiles are not obligated to the whole law.

They are children of Abraham by faith and participate in the promises of that covenant. Christ accomplished circumcision for them, and whether they are physically circumcised or not they have salvation by faith according to the promises made to Abraham, 430 years before the law ever was introduced.

Now you also cite Acts 15 as a key text for you. However, I again do not see this as supporting observance of the entire Mosaic law for gentiles.

The council gathered to discuss the following issue:

Act 15:5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."
Act 15:6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter.


Those believers belonging to the party of the Pharisees had to requirements for gentiles:

1. circumcision

2. order them to keep the law of Moses.

Now we agree Jesus accomplishes all the circumcision that they need. However, the second point is a problem for your proposal. If Paul had taught the gentile church at Antioch that they were to keep all the Mosaic covenant, other than circumcision and sacrifice, then why would the Pharisee party be speaking about the council compelling the gentiles to keep the law of Moses? They would have already been doing it.

Moreover, the church expressly distances itself from the position of the Pharisee party in the official letter summarizing their ruling:

Act 15:22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers,
Act 15:23 with the following letter: "The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings.
Act 15:24 Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions,
Act 15:25 it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth.
Act 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:
Act 15:29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."


While people have interpreted these requirements in different ways (Noahide requirements, compromise requirements, etc.) they do not equal keeping the whole law of Moses which is what the Pharisees wanted. And there would be no reason for the Pharisees to push for that if they were already doing this to start with.
A lot here, will take a while, but let me clarify my position, I believe Paul is talking about QUALIFICATION OF BELIEVERS, the whole circumcision argument is about qualifications. the question is for what? In Acts 15, the complaint comes from Jerusalem, where they were concerned about qualifications. In Col 2 it is the same argument and in Gal it is the same argument, there is a consistancy, you are qualified in Christ by your faith in Christ promise & performance not by your Promise & performance. that is the same argument made in Gal 3 Promise of Abraham vs your performance in the Mosaic Covenant. Are you aware that the Covenant of Creation and Moses are a specific type of covenant, they are performance based covenants called suzerainty covenant, and that Noah's, Abraham's, David's & the New Covenant are Royal Grant Covenants? so when paul make the statement in Gal 3 about the law coming 430 years later not making void the promise, he is referring to the legal arrangement of the covenant NOT the Substance of the Law. Now referring back to Acts 15, when they were makeing the recommendation as to what to impose on the gentiles, they were not talking about doing away with the Law of Moses, Moses was read in the synagogue "week to week" . BUT WERE TALKING ABOUT NOT OFFENDING THERE JEWISH HOSTS. REMEMBER THE COMPLAINT IS FROM CERTIAN BROTHER FROM JERUSALEM. WHERE THEY PRACTICE THE LAW.

13After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me. 14“Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15“With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,

16‘AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,

17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,’

18SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.
19“Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are TRUNING TO GOD FROM AMOUNG THE GENTILES

20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.21“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” that is not talking about abandoning the sabbath it is talking about keeping it. I am out of time for today. I didn't get to everything, so I will be back later
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Tall, I want to make a request that you don't dump pages and pages of arguments at one time. You need to make 1 argument per post and keep it short. If you have more then one argument put it in a second post and a third if necessary. It make it very diffuicult to respond to your post. Smaller posts are more effective and less confusing. I would rather have 12 different post to respond to then 1 or 2 MASSIVE Dissertation to scroll through. The larger it is the harder it is to respond to.
 
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Kirsten

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The Interpretation to end all interpretations on Col 2:16: Finally the Correct interpretation of the passage.


In the battle that rages around the issue of the Sabbath and weather we are to observe it or not, one text stands out in the center of the debate. It is Col 2:16 Therefore, Let no one Judge you concerning meat or drink or a Festival, a New Moon or a Sabbath, for these are the shadow of things that still linger.[1]`Those that say that the Sabbath is to be abandoned point to this text and say, “Paul clearly says, don’t judge anyone about the Sabbath, so stop judging us and leave us alone. If you want to keep the Sabbath then do so but why would you want to dwell in Shadow land we have the substance. What value do you find in that Old Covenant relic any way’s?”


Those who believe that the Sabbath should be kept are often perplexed and intimidated by this text, because it seems to validate the reading of the position advocated by their opponents. If they do try to interpret the text it is a piecemeal approach, no interpretation deals with all the information some of it is explained and some of it is just not dealt with at all. Some say Sabbath is still binding, but the rest of them are not, this is a modified view. Others say we should observe all the Sabbath’s New Moons and Festival’s. What is need is an interpretation that deals with ALL the assumptions & ALL the information. So let’s look at these now.


Commonly, those that advocate for abandonment, assumes that the parties in question doing the judging are Jews or Jewish believers, but the text never says that. It is also assumed that those judging are condemning them for NOT observing the Sabbath, Festivals and New Moons, but the Text never says that either. What is often over look by interpreters on both sides is that the turning point in Paul’s argument is the use of the word “Therefore” It is the dividing line between what come before and what comes after in the text. It is often pointed out that when you see the term therefore, you have to ask, "What is it therefore". Therefore sets up Paul’s response. Paul two times uses the “let know one…. concerning…. formula “Let No one, Judge/Deceive, you concerning….” This formula is in direct answer to the statements & objection raised earlier in the text. So before we get to Paul’s answer let’s look at the earlier statement & objections in the passage.


Paul begins the section his purpose for writing to the new believers in Colossae. (Vs. 2), that they be encouraged in heart, united in love and have complete understanding of Christ. Then Paul makes 2 statements about Christ in which he builds his defense to the objections, because he is dealing with two different groups in this passage. The first statements about Christ is, “in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” (vs.3). The second is “He (Christ) is the head over every power and authority. (vs.10). In the first statement the Wisdom and Knowledge of Christ was being challenged by those of the Greek world view, this challenge came from many different sources, Philosophy of the Philosophers (v.8), Knowledge of Gnostics (v3.), Rhetoric of the Sophists (vs.4), or the Mythology & Astrology of ancient religions (vs.8) The second challenge is to the Power and Authority of Christ. This challenge comes from the Jews and the Jewish believers. This challenge is against the qualification of the believers, mainly they are not circumcised (vs.11) and they are not sacrificing (vs15).


Paul deals with these challenges by reminding them of the status Christ has gained for them. To counter the Greeks, he encourages them to continue to walk in Christ as they received him and not to be impressed with the Greeks, because all wisdom and knowledge are in Christ not the Philosophers, not the Gnostics, not the Sophist, the Astrologers and not the ancient religions they will be deceived and disqualified, by listening to the Greeks.

Paul then turns to the challenges from the Jews and the Jewish believes by reminding them because they were made complete in Christ (vs.10) He also reminds them they do not need circumcision and sacrifice because Christ had become their circumcision and their sacrifice and won the benefits of both. With Sacrifice he won the right to forgive their sins and cancel out the accusation against them, with circumcision he won the right to bring them back into the Mosaic covenant and allowed them to participate and receive the benefits of the covenant without being circumcised themselves.


Paul next draws conclusions based on these arguments. Now I will vary from the text in Colossians in that I will address the conclusions opposite of that of what is written by Paul. Paul concludes that those who are deceived by the Greeks are disqualified, because they delight in false humility, are puffed up and they have separated themselves from the source of victory over the flesh, which is Christ. Paul reminds them that they have died to the things of the Greeks and are now to be living for godly things, why go back because they have no value in restraining the flesh.


Now let looks at Paul’s statements concerning Jews and Jewish believers. This is where the controversy begins. The controversy is over weather Paul is making optional the keeping of the Mosaic Festivals, Sabbath and New Moons or was he telling Christian not to let the Jews and Jewish believers, forbid them from observing them. Based on the previous statement of circumcision & sacrifice we must conclude that Paul was not forbidding them from participating in the Mosaic festivals, why? Because the very fact that they are talking about circumcision proves that the Mosaic Covenant is still valid and binding, because you only circumcise in order to enter the Mosaic Covenant and partake of it’s benefits. Why else would Christ need to become your circumcision UNLESS HE wanted to you to enter the Mosaic Covenant and observe is requirements and receive it’s benefits? If Christ as become you Circumcision then he has made provision for you to receive the benefits and the obligations of Moses. Now the conclusion that Paul makes about No one Judging you is more about forbidding and discouraging Christians from participating. You are complete in Christ; so you have the right and responsibility to enjoy those benefits, so don’t listen to the Jews.


Paul’s conclusion, Let know one Judge (vs.16) you or Deceive (vs.18) you are the conclusion rooted in the benefits Christ has won for us. You can both be deceived and disqualified by the Greeks or you can be denied and discouraged by the Jews. Paul’s statements about being complete are in no way making optional the Sabbath. In fact his reasoning makes it very clear they WERE practicing all the requirement of Moses, including the Sabbath, New Moons & Festivals.


While there are many people who have opinions on this passages and Christian’s use this as there main defense against observing the Sabbath, the text actually tell another story. Christian have no leg to stand on when it come to advocating for the abandonment of the Sabbath, based on Colossian 2. In fact careful examination of the passage actually leads to the exact opposite conclusion. Those who were advocating for Sabbath abandonment must rethink there reasons for doing so.



[1]“Shadow of things that sill linger” is the most accurate translation of the Greek “Shadow of things to come” is a good understanding, but not a precise translation of the Greek, but is certainly better then “Shadow of thing that have come” (NIV), This is reading into the text their beliefs and assumes a past fulfillment


How does someone 'observe the Sabbath' exactly?
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Going back to Acts 15 for a minute, James Quotes Amos 9:11,12. It is a prophecy about the rebuilding of the tabernacle of David. This was prophecy about the Northern Tribes being brought back in to the covenant after being exiled by Assyria. That poses a major problem for those who say it is only about gentiles. Which bring up another point, I not sure where I read this it might have been in Gal. but one of the words that is translated gentiles is the word uncircumcised, this could be gentile, or uncircumcised Jew.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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How does someone 'observe the Sabbath' exactly?
that goes back to meaning and purpose. I have come up the a clearer understanding. It is about Rest. What ever leads to rest is acceptable to do on the Sabbath. So what dose Rest mean. It is the Ideal like that God has for you after order has been brought out of Chaos and all the Enemies have been defeated. The most perfect example of Rest is the Garden of Eden. Every thing was in submission to God, in harmony, happiness & Peace. So anything that creates a greater Garden of Eden Experiance is acceptable Any thing that destroys that experiance is not.
 
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Kirsten

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that goes back to meaning and purpose. I have come up the a clearer understanding. It is about Rest. What ever leads to rest is acceptable to do on the Sabbath. So what dose Rest mean. It is the Ideal like that God has for you after order has been brought out of Chaos and all the Enemies have been defeated. The most perfect example of Rest is the Garden of Eden. Every thing was in submission to God, in harmony, happiness & Peace. So anything that creates a greater Garden of Eden Experiance is acceptable Any thing that destroys that experiance is not.

I thought we were supposed to rest in Him at all times.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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I thought we were supposed to rest in Him at all times.
Ok, it looks to me you are playing a game. You ask about how keep sabbath then you want to change the subject to our personal relationship with God. You need to expand you, rest is the ideal, the only way to achieve the ideal is to be submitted to Christ and trust him. There is no conflict between the 2 ideas. Rest in Christ and Rest of the sabbath are the exact same thing, one is applied to a person and their relationship with God, the other is to a time and a space, that God invites people to enter to encounter him and be refreshed and changed.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Built Up in Christ



1For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; 2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

Alive in Christ

6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Blue =Greek Ideas
Green = Hebrew Ideas
 
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Adventist Dissident

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How do you interpret the food and drink portion?

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
upon considering this question, I believe food & drink is an improper translation, meat or drink is correct, it could be referring to the meat & drink offering, again Jewish
 
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tall73

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upon considering this question, I believe food & drink is an improper translation, meat or drink is correct, it could be referring to the meat & drink offering, again Jewish


It looks like you are still replying to the overall material, but I wanted to follow up on this a bit.

If you take the meat and drink to be offerings, do you think the people being written to were sacrificing or not sacrificing?
 
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Adventist Dissident

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It looks like you are still replying to the overall material, but I wanted to follow up on this a bit.

If you take the meat and drink to be offerings, do you think the people being written to were sacrificing or not sacrificing?
uncertian, haven't put much thought into it.
 
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upon considering this question, I believe food & drink is an improper translation, meat or drink is correct, it could be referring to the meat & drink offering, again Jewish
if there is something in the reply that I have missed please copy it and repost it.
 
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Dave-W

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Tall this goes back to the SDA misunderstanding of the Relation of the Sabbath to the Lords Day, there is no conflict as far as I am concerned. They were doing both, synagogue and house church. Sabbath was a day of rest and the Lord's day was a festival.
IMO "Lord's Day" (referring to sunday) was a gross misunderstanding of the term by the Greek speaking early church fathers. In Rev 1.10, the word "Lord's" is NOT a noun in the genitive (possessive) case; rather it is an adjective, as in "Lordy day." That could refer to any day of the week. OTOH "Lord's" day (in the genitive/ possessive case) is a direct reference to the day of judgement and destruction. (given the amount of foretold destruction works for Rev 1.10 also)

So I would NEVER take "the Lord's day" to mean sunday. EVER.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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IMO "Lord's Day" (referring to sunday) was a gross misunderstanding of the term by the Greek speaking early church fathers. In Rev 1.10, the word "Lord's" is NOT a noun in the genitive (possessive) case; rather it is an adjective, as in "Lordy day." That could refer to any day of the week. OTOH "Lord's" day (in the genitive/ possessive case) is a direct reference to the day of judgement and destruction. (given the amount of foretold destruction works for Rev 1.10 also)

So I would NEVER take "the Lord's day" to mean sunday. EVER.

I agree DaveW... Matt 12:8, Mark 2:28 and Luke 6:5 all reference what day is claimed by the Lord. This is what John would have known...
 
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I agree DaveW... Matt 12:8, Mark 2:28 and Luke 6:5 all reference what day is claimed by the Lord. This is what John would have known...
you clearly have not made an attempt to do you home work on this topic.
 
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I agree DaveW... Matt 12:8, Mark 2:28 and Luke 6:5 all reference what day is claimed by the Lord. This is what John would have known...
The term Lord's day came about as a direct way to distinguish it from Sunday. Just like Sabbath is not Saturday,& just like those who worship on Sabbath do not worship Saturn, so those who celebrate the FESTIVAL of the Lord's day are not worshiping the Sun. The Lord's day came about by the need to solve a problem that arose in Rome. The riots of the Jews in the late 40's. It was chosen theologically because it was on the day of first fruits and Pentecost (the day after the Sabbath , or the 8th day or the 1st day of the week or Sunday) Christ rose from the dead and the Holy Spirit was poured out. The 7th day in Judaism is a day of rest (no work and no food preparation) and the 8th day is the day of New beginnings. it was considered a FESTIVAL not a Sabbath. It was never a replacement for the sabbath, just like the festivals in the bible are not a replacement for the sabbath. The replacement issue came when Sylvester I transfered the holiness of the Sabbath to the Lord's day.
 
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