Cognitive Dissonance

[JGG]

Credit to Bhtmse for giving me the idea of this thread.

I'm just curious... do the vast majority of Christians seek to avoid conversation with non-believers on the veracity of Christianity because of the cognitive dissonance that it inevitably creates inside their own minds? I know that when I was a Christian, I enjoyed the conversations because I only wanted the truth, no matter where it led me. Even on these boards, the display of cognitive dissonance is obvious in that non-believers are relegated to a very small number of forums so that they cannot talk openly with others in most places.

And also, when the cognitive dissonance is more than the determined Christian can bear, do they then find a way to lie to their own self in order to maintain faith? I know I wasn't capable of such, but are others?

Just curious,

BL

That's ridiculous! That's precisely why we have the General Apologetics sub-forum at CF...oh wait, that was removed...

Your point is well taken.

 

[JGG]

So Christian forums are appropriately limited to those who believe in Christ.



There are forums here where "secular" aspects of religious things can be discussed by atheists, such as this philosophy forum, the science forum, the history forum, etc. Even a limited apologetics type forum.



Does any atheist care whether we were born with original sin or ancestral sin? I wouldn't think he believes in sin at all. I guess an analogy might be a "Scientologist Forums" (if there is such a thing). What would I as a Christian have to say to those people in their threads discussing Scientology issues? "You're fundamentally wrong about pretty much everything."? But I think they have the right to talk amongst themselves without interruption if they want.

I would and do visit Scientoligy fora quite often to discuss issues.

 

[Chesterton]

I would and do visit Scientoligy fora quite often to discuss issues.

I don't.

 

[JGG]

I don't.

Not likely. Scientologists probably don't hate you.

 

[Chesterton]

Not likely. Scientologists probably don't hate you.

It's not that. I just don't wanna get sued. On here I only get reported.

 

[BL2KTN]

Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! Do you see him repressing me!? You saw it, didn't you!?

Let's just say you're not aware of everything. I have been permanently banned before on this site, and I'd rather not take actions that would result in it again... like letting you goad me into a topic I'm not keen on discussing.

 

[RDKirk]

Let's just say you're not aware of everything. I have been permanently banned before on this site, and I'd rather not take actions that would result in it again... like letting you goad me into a topic I'm not keen on discussing.

Then you need to abandon this topic and start another because you said:

I'm just curious... do the vast majority of Christians seek to avoid conversation with non-believers on the veracity of Christianity because of the cognitive dissonance that it inevitably creates inside their own minds? I know that when I was a Christian, I enjoyed the conversations because I only wanted the truth, no matter where it led me. Even on these boards, the display of cognitive dissonance is obvious in that non-believers are relegated to a very small number of forums so that they cannot talk openly with others in most places.

You used the structure of this board as the only "evidence" of your assertion, and now you want to say that your evidence cannot be examined.

Balderdash.

 

[Received]

Given that the metaphysical or "supernatural" sphere that relates to God encloses the natural and limitations of science, the only dissonance a theist could have is regarding truth claims about natural phenomena, e.g., the world being a few thousand years old, etc. But if you're reasonable, this doesn't happen.

 

[bhsmte]

Given that the metaphysical or "supernatural" sphere that relates to God encloses the natural and limitations of science, the only dissonance a theist could have is regarding truth claims about natural phenomena, e.g., the world being a few thousand years old, etc. But if you're reasonable, this doesn't happen.

I agree and there are posters like yourself that are evidence of this. No reason one can't have strong faith in a God and still be in real good touch with well evidenced science, which is highly likely to be reality.

 

[RDKirk]

Given that the metaphysical or "supernatural" sphere that relates to God encloses the natural and limitations of science, the only dissonance a theist could have is regarding truth claims about natural phenomena, e.g., the world being a few thousand years old, etc. But if you're reasonable, this doesn't happen.

Understanding that Christianity is "why" not "how," no problem.

 

[Paradoxum]

Luke 1:38

Fair enough.

 

[BL2KTN]

You used the structure of this board as the only "evidence" of your assertion, and now you want to say that your evidence cannot be examined.

In subsequent posts I pointed out that Christians who do engage on the topics that are difficult for them are individuals of lesser intellect. Out of six sentences I introduced the thread with (of which some you excluded when quoting me), we are not going to focus specifically on one single sentence as the topic of the thread when it is against forum rules to do so.

Either discuss cognitive dissonance among Christians talking with intelligent non-believers, or hop out of the thread.

Given that the metaphysical or "supernatural" sphere that relates to God encloses the natural and limitations of science, the only dissonance a theist could have is regarding truth claims about natural phenomena, e.g., the world being a few thousand years old, etc. But if you're reasonable, this doesn't happen.

The problem is that Yahweh has specific qualities that many believe in, and Christianity tells a specific story. Neither the qualities of Yahweh or the story of Christianity is credible in the least. The idea of a God beyond scientific knowledge is not the same as what I'm discussing here (specifically Christian cognitive dissonance)... and it wouldn't make much sense given that I too believe there is a creator beyond scientific knowledge.

 

[mindlight]

So you believe that the creator of the cosmos will set someone on fire forever, in an act that makes Hitler look like Ghandi, for the crime of not believing that the specific Christian god is the one true god. Those who believe in any other god deserve to burn in unimaginable pain for trillions of years. But the child rapist who converts on his deathbed deserves paradise forever.

I can see why your teachings require you to disengage at some point with a non-believer. Reasonable thinking might actually prevail.

Comparing God with Hitler is to show a lack of understanding of God. God gives you the choice to turn or burn and Hitler does not. Moreover He respects the choice you make. I believe that because of His love for us the choice of alienation from Him and the resulting Cognitive Dissonance displayed by the child He loves is very painful to Him.

You or indeed any one are hardly in a position to criticise Gods willingness to forgive a repentant sinner. It is the biggest single reason why we can trust Him. He wants to be with us and has done everything possible to make that happen.

No reasonable man would choose hell over life with God forever. Therefore, if that is your choice, you are not reasonable.

 

[mindlight]

Certainly. In fact one of my favorite people on all of CF is a British, homosexual, atheist (former wiccan) scientist. When I joined CF, if someone had wagered me that a person of that description would be one of my favorite people, I'd probably have lost some money. We disagree on much (obviously) but we've had many very lengthy and deep discussions which are mutually respectful, interesting, challenging and downright fun. I flat-out like the guy! It can be done.

There are lot of intellectually stimulating non believers who are thoroughly likeable. But they do not see or live in the Truth. It is right to want to see them saved , it is kidding oneself to pretend that such a person could be a long term friend.

If Christians were more authentic with each other and less worried about expressing doubts or confessing sins or openly wrestling with troubling situations then I think they would be less enamoured by the passing playacting of atheists.

These people are like clouds that pass across the sky. All full of thunder and lightning one minute and then fading into nothingness the next.

 

[madaz]

There are lot of intellectually stimulating non believers who are thoroughly likeable. But they do not see or live in the Truth.

Either you are in denial, suffer from cognitive dissonance or you socialise with unusual atheists, from my own experience, the majority of atheist's tend to see and live closer to facts, truth and reality than the average theist does.

It is right to want to see them saved , it is kidding oneself to pretend that such a person could be a long term friend.

Some of the nicest people I have ever met are atheist, once again I think maybe you socialise with unusual atheists and judge all atheists the same way.

If Christians were more authentic with each other and less worried about expressing doubts or confessing sins or openly wrestling with troubling situations then I think they would be less enamoured by the passing playacting of atheists.

Playacting? What do you mean?

These people are like clouds that pass across the sky. All full of thunder and lightning one minute and then fading into nothingness the next.

Translation-These people make very persuasive arguments, but after some time my cognitive dissonance muffles them out.

 

[single eye]

The C.D. does not go away until we know why we are here. This requires that we understand that there are 2 creators, not 1. The First creator loves unconditionally, never violates our free-will, and has no unrealistic expectations of us, and is the giver of life. The second creator created the universe and will do anything possible to keep us from finding out why we are here.

 

[bhsmte]

The C.G. does not go away until we know why we are here. This requires that we understand that there are 2 creators, not 1. The First creator loves unconditionally, never violates our free-will, and has no unrealistic expectations of us, and is the giver of life. The second creator created the universe and will do anything possible to keep us from finding out why we are here.

Could you give us more specifics in regards to what you deem as two creators?

 

[BL2KTN]

Comparing God with Hitler is to show a lack of understanding of God.

I would never be so crass as to compare the creator of the cosmos to Hitler. I'm comparing Yahweh to Hitler, though it may be unfair to Hitler since Yahweh is recorded as having savagely killed more people.

God gives you the choice to turn or burn and Hitler does not.

That's cute that Yahweh plays with us like poker cards.

So Yahweh gave you the choice to "turn or burn," eh? But you were born into a family that believed in the Christian god, right? So you never turned... you just asked a 2,000 year old Jewish man to forgive you like the people around you taught. You were never called a Muslim or a Hindi... you had nothing to turn from other than your own behaviors (which consequentially most continued right along afterwards anyway).

Yet there are children born into Muslim families every day who will have cancer and die at fifteen or sixteen. And though they may have been kind, caring individuals, your Yahweh supposedly thinks the consequence for their being born into a Muslim family and dying relatively young is that they should be set on fire, suffering the same pain as someone receiving third degree burns, day and night, for a hundred years... a thousand years... a million years... a billion years... a trillion years... and on. I couldn't do that to my worst enemy, little alone a kind little Muslim girl who happened to get cancer when she was twleve and died when she was sixteen. Yet that is your Yahweh. He makes Hitler seem like a wonderful fellow.

Turn or burn, right?

Moreover He respects the choice you make.

What about the people with no choice? What about the individuals throughout the past two-thousand years who never heard of a little Jewish man named Yeshua? I would suppose that they will be set on fire as well, but you may be like some Christians and assert your own opinion that surely Yahweh wouldn't be so unjust. I mean, he handled the thousand of little Muslim girls who died of cancer in their teens with justice didn't he?

I believe that because of His love for us the choice of alienation from Him and the resulting Cognitive Dissonance displayed by the child He loves is very painful to Him.

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Any god who stirs up an army to dash children to death in front of their parents, rape people's wives, and murder young people with arrows... I'm not thinking he's pained by cognitive dissonance. It doesn't seem that sort of bloodlusting savagery would be bothered by much at all.

You or indeed any one are hardly in a position to criticise Gods willingness to forgive a repentant sinner.

I haven't. And again, we're talking about Yahweh, not God.

It is the biggest single reason why we can trust Him. He wants to be with us and has done everything possible to make that happen.

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

Pardon me if I'm not interested in being with Yahweh... or anybody who lets bears loose to kill little boys for calling someone "bald." So though you say Yahweh is trustworthy and wants to be with us, I'm not interested; he doesn't seem moral enough to have much in common with me.

No reasonable man would choose hell over life with God forever. Therefore, if that is your choice, you are not reasonable.

But again, we're not talking about God. We're talking about a 4,000 year old minor god from the Iron Age... a god from the Babylonian pantheon of 70 gods... the son of El, Yahweh. I'm as worried about him sending me to hell as I am Molech, Ba'al, Allah, Zeus, and Thor. And if he does send me to hell, then hell will be a more moral place than Heaven, because I would be in Hell and the bloodlusting, genocidal, infanticidal, misogynistic, rapist Yahweh would be in Heaven.

It's like saying "no reasonable man would suffer in a concentration camp instead of eating at Hitler's table."

After you get over the incredulousness, have fun showing me where I'm wrong.

 

[Received]

The problem is that Yahweh has specific qualities that many believe in, and Christianity tells a specific story. Neither the qualities of Yahweh or the story of Christianity is credible in the least. The idea of a God beyond scientific knowledge is not the same as what I'm discussing here (specifically Christian cognitive dissonance)... and it wouldn't make much sense given that I too believe there is a creator beyond scientific knowledge.

That's your atheistic fundamentalism Christianity side speaking. Nobody on the other side takes the stuff in the Old Testament totally literally insofar as God's character is concerned (even speaking of God as if he has character implies a sense of finitude and the possibility for change, which are very ungodlike qualities); the most reasonable explanation I've heard is that less-than-virtuous people in the Old Testament (i.e., everyone, not just people in its story but on the earth) project their less-than-virtuous nature onto God, creating a good guy with bad qualities. As we move toward the New, people get better (from a Judaeo-Christian perspective because of the God beyond God, i.e., the real God beyond the shallow projections of God), and consequently God seems nicer. Which is a good summary of the historical progression of the church and conceptions of God as well: more and more loving, more and more likable, albeit with many small groups who keep the bad projections kicking.

What do you mean by your last sentence?

 

[BL2KTN]

That's your atheistic fundamentalism Christianity side speaking.

And yet I'm a deist. :facepalm:

Nobody on the other side takes the stuff in the Old Testament totally literally insofar as God's character is concerned (even speaking of God as if he has character implies a sense of finitude and the possibility for change, which are very ungodlike qualities)

Apparently the apologists on these forums who do are now imaginary.

the most reasonable explanation I've heard is that less-than-virtuous people in the Old Testament (i.e., everyone, not just people in its story but on the earth) project their less-than-virtuous nature onto God, creating a good guy with bad qualities.

But we're supposed to trust that these less-than-virtuous people who wrote about a less-than-virtuous Yahweh, wrote the rest of the Old Testament well enough that it foretold of Jesus... a messiah who came from and believed in the less-than-virtuous people's account of the world.

As we move toward the New, people get better (from a Judaeo-Christian perspective because of the God beyond God, i.e., the real God beyond the shallow projections of God), and consequently God seems nicer.

Yes - the religion you currently hold is the result of older beliefs evolving over time in response to people learning new ideas. It's still highly flawed since the beliefs didn't necessarily change based on whether they were true or not. An example might be how Iranaeus selected the four gospels in the bible today based not on their truthfulness, but instead based on the idea of the four corners of the earth and the four principle winds. Other gospels - including Jewish gospels - were then sought out to be destroyed.

Which is a good summary of the historical progression of the church and conceptions of God as well: more and more loving, more and more likable, albeit with many small groups who keep the bad projections kicking.

I agree that your religion is based on changing conceptions of Yahweh, but not God.

What do you mean by your last sentence?

I believe there is an ultimate creator, an alpha. I find Yahweh ridiculous and savage... I absolutely do not believe Yahweh to be the creator.