CofC adds instrumental worships and deems it right???

[Molal]

I am a CofC instrumental pastor. While at Bible College, I attended a Non-instrumental church. Wow, they could sing.

But if we go STRICTLY as silence as the reason to restrict, then I dare say that you need to show me where Hymnals fit in. And I never could understand why the music director had to use a pitch pipe to start the first note???

And one other thing, if God had worship given to Him by instruments in the Old Testament and there will be instruments in heaven, why, if He didn't want them in New Testament times just tell us? And why would He not want them? If they are good enough to God in the OT and Heaven, why not now?

I mean no disrespect by my questions. Just questions. If a non-instrumentalist were to stop by our little country church and I knew they were offended by the piano, we would put it away for the day. In fact I have offered to do that on 4 occasions. No takers.
MAKE IT a great Sunday.
fishon

I have the same questions as you, as I have grown older I have come to realise that IM may not be bad and that the interpretation that IM sits-upon is somewhat faulty.

Thanks for your ideas fishon.

 

[cremi]

I know many people in the church of christ could care less about having or not having instruments, but it's not about us...It's about God and pleasing him. I don't want to take the risk of displeasing him, and I'm disappointed that others are.

Can you show me a scripture, OT or NT, that specificlly states that God is displeased with us when instruments are used in worship?

 

[Apollos1]

I just happened to buy a copy of The Oklahoman on that Saturday. January 26, 2008 when the Q&A story ran about the Quail Springs group adding IM to a separate worship service. I still have the article. I knew in a small way it was historical.

What struck me as most obvious was Henderson’s remarks that after discussion and prayer and study [the elders] “…had come to the conclusion that we would add an instrumental service.” Henderson offered nothing by remark that they thought IM was approved in scripture or in anyway authorized – just that they would “add” the instrumental service. Much of the rest of the article was involved in the typical excuses and rationalization for adding IM, and lip-service to mitigate their actions for the damage they knew it was going to cause. They knew their actions were going to cause damage to the congregation but proceeded anyway.

One of the best pieces of rationalization was that they wanted to “keep more of our people that were leaving to go to instrumental churches” and “to reach some that we’ve been missing”. Average attendance had been 900-950. It is now 600-650 or less. They lost 1/3 – that is ONE-THIRD! I wonder if they are considering eliminating the IM service now to “reach” those that they are “missing”? What hypocrisy!

(And please remember who caused the division!)

Let me go on record – the unauthorized and irresponsible actions of Henderson and the elders at Quail Springs sicken me! They will have to give an answer to God some day for this and I pity them!

Meanwhile back at the Forum…

Someone said - “Now, when it says "psalms" it refers to the book of Psalms.”

No, the reference is not back to the book of Psalms and nothing in the CONTEXT of Ephesians 5:19 or Colossians 3:16 that indicates such.
The verses say “…psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.”
Psalms are sacred odes or songs.
Hymns are religious songs.
Spiritual songs are just that – songs of spiritual content.

OT practices do not authorize NT worship.
Worship in heaven does not authorize NT worship on earth. That is, IF such examples of worship as seen to take place in heaven are not, in fact, symbolic of something else.

Let’s forget the rationalizing…

Someone offered - “…as long as their worship is sincere and true.”

There is not one incorrect religious practice that I can’t justify using this rationalization. Be it the Pope, human synods, creed books, sprinkling, coffee and donuts in the Lord’s Supper, no singing in place of instruments, etc.,etc.

Oh by the way – WHERE is the passage that says SINCERITY makes it all okay?

Jesus in His stern rebuke of the women at the well said –
John 4:23-24 - The hour is coming – and now is – that TRUE worshippers MUST worship – in spirit and truth! Jesus said you MUST have the correct attitude and the correct information to worship God. Sincerity alone doesn’t wash with God!

Someone said - A lot of the differences we have in our approach to this issue come from this idea of "silence". It's kinda ironic that we all agree on this idea of "being silent where scripture is silent" even though it's not actually in scripture as such.

I would to God that we all agreed on this idea of silence – we don’t. But I know God’s idea. Working through the overview of passages such as Romans 15:4, 2 Cor. 5:11, and Heb. 2:1-2, God reveals how He wants His word followed.

Lev. 10:1 – Nadab and Abihu – used fire “which He commanded them not…”
1 Sam. 15:20 – “I have obeyed the voice of Jehovah…” Really? Samuel said NO!
(Oh – but his motives were sincere!)
2 Sam 6:6-7 – Uzzah was sincere and wanted to help.
Hebrews 8:5 – Make all things according to the pattern…
John 4:22 – “You don’t know what you worship…” You can’t worship just anywhere you please. Do you think worshipping in anyway you please will work?
Matt. 7:23 – depart – you that work lawLESSness…

Proverbs 14:12 – Which end will yours be?

Silence does prohibit anything – it is just that SILENCE doesn’t authorize!
Colossians 3:17.

Someone said – “…show me where Hymnals fit in…”.

There are TWO types of music – VOCAL and IM. Hymnals or overhead projectors don’t change the TYPE of music commanded by God – which is “Sing…”. (This command also covers “SATB”.) Collection baskets do not change a free-will offering on the first day of the week into something else. Hymnals, just as collection baskets, aid in fulfilling the command – they don’t change it into something else.

To DerSchweik – You made some great points - many of which may be the unseen wisdom of God when He told the saints “Sing…”

And speaking further of “unintended consequences”, I had to laugh when years ago I noticed that the Baptists were lamenting the evolution of their IM toward “Hard rock Gospel” music. The hard and heavy beat offended the older generations of Baptists. Yet, what could they say? IM for them had been the norm for so long they couldn’t back up on the issue just because they didn’t like the beat – lol!

ModestGirlsRock – stay the course and follow through with requesting “Bible” for all you teach and practice in religion. You will be glad you did! Thanks to you!

Now to all I have not persuaded in regards to using IM in NT worship, I will let you get back to your rationalizations for using an unauthorized practice.

 

[DerSchweik]

Apollos - you raise some excellent points. And I think the PRIMARY point you made is that - God expects us to follow His pattern, not to depart from it - that any departure will be met with severe discipline. I wholehearted agree and appreciate the passion with which you made this point.

If I sound like I'm equivocating on this issue, I am not. Instruments in and of themselves do not prohibit or hinder singing. Their presence in worship, IMO, does not violate God's pattern for us to worship Him in song.

But using instruments to entertain does. My comments earlier sounded as if I were merely sad at the seeming loss of our ability to sing. I am - but it also angers me.

My point, stated more forcefully is - Instruments, as currently employed in congregational worship (in my experience) have hindered God's pattern that we worship Him in song, if not destroyed it entirely. Worse, they are symptomatic of a deeper spiritual crisis in the church.

Your inclusions re the Quail church are telling and merge perfectly with what I have heard in the way of rationalizing the "need" to switch to IM in "worship." Namely, that the reasons for switching to IM are, to "reach out to people who would not otherwise come to church," and to "reach out to those whom we've already lost."

Salvation then is, ostensibly, dependent on our ability to entertain the lost masses with instrumental music, technologically superior sound and video systems, and elaborate stage performances.

Utter bunk - and, IMO, utter unfaithfulness on the part of the church whose "business" it is to spread the Gospel (by which we are in fact saved), love one another, and worship Him.

The problem is, IMHO, a potentially deadly mistake that "MUSIC SAVES" and that INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC SAVES MORE FASTER. We are rationalizing our dwindling numbers because we believe people want something "more exciting and fun" and that if we provide that they will come and stay and that if we don't, they will leave.

What people "want" and what people "need", according to the Gospel, are two entirely different things.

The issue is, IMHO, whether we will repent and begin evangelizing again, preaching the word - the gospel, which does save, or will we march further to trying to bring in people with our fancy stage productions and ever-increasing inability to sing with our own voices so we will "feel" like we're doing our jobs? IM has, for all intents and purposes, split the church into a new "clergy" (musicians) and "laity" (audience). And if the musicians do their job (worship), we will do ours (be entertained - sincerely, of course).

We are, in fact, NOT doing our job. As a result of that, and that alone, our numbers are dwindling (just look at the # of people in our forum vs others). And to bring our church numbers up, we are looking to a different gospel (music, specifically, amplified stage productions) to restore (falsely) the symptoms that would exist were we in fact doing our real job - preaching the word.

The flesh wants entertainment but the soul wants - and NEEDS - spiritual food.

So I don't equivocate when I say I don't believe IM in our church buildings is the issue. The issue is a spiritual one - our faithfulness to evangelism, to preaching the untainted word, loving one another, and loving Him with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. Instrumental music will no more save the lost than its prohibition.

I hope this better states my position. - God bless.

 

[crawfish]

Someone said - “Now, when it says "psalms" it refers to the book of Psalms.”

No, the reference is not back to the book of Psalms and nothing in the CONTEXT of Ephesians 5:19 or Colossians 3:16 that indicates such.
The verses say “…psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.”
Psalms are sacred odes or songs.
Hymns are religious songs.
Spiritual songs are just that – songs of spiritual content.

OT practices do not authorize NT worship.
Worship in heaven does not authorize NT worship on earth. That is, IF such examples of worship as seen to take place in heaven are not, in fact, symbolic of something else.

What psalms do you think they were referring to? EVERY psalm in the book of Psalms would be familiar to every Jew. Girls spent their formative years memorizing Psalms and Proverbs. They were sung on holy days and during festivals. We have found Christian songbooks from the first century that mix new works with psalms of old.

The best arguments against IM are non-biblical ones. But again, I ask: pleasing in the OT + not mentioned in the NT = BANNED? That makes absolutely no sense. To take that argument and stay consistent requires that "silence" be taken far more seriously than I've ever seen it taken by any CofC.

Of course, we've been through all this before. I wouldn't expect this one to end any differently than the last one.

 

[crawfish]

My point, stated more forcefully is - Instruments, as currently employed in congregational worship (in my experience) have hindered God's pattern that we worship Him in song, if not destroyed it entirely. Worse, they are symptomatic of a deeper spiritual crisis in the church.

Your inclusions re the Quail church are telling and merge perfectly with what I have heard in the way of rationalizing the "need" to switch to IM in "worship." Namely, that the reasons for switching to IM are, to "reach out to people who would not otherwise come to church," and to "reach out to those whom we've already lost."

I think we'd all agree that many "worship styles" are acceptable - formal vs. casual, use of media/slides in the service, worship times, etc. There are plenty of adjustments that can and should be made by the eldership in order to better attend to the needs of the community around them.

Like it our not, our culture is changing, and more rapidly than it ever has in the past. Our methods of learning and gathering information, our needs for connection with the outlying community, even our attention spans are changing in dramatic ways. We are not the same as our parents or our grandparents; their ways will not work for our children and our grandchildren.

If it is our culture and not the message that is preventing us from reaching the lost, then it is our responsibility to change. As long as we hold to scriptural truth, as long as we do not compromise scripture in order to appeal to non-christians, then any change that makes it more likely that they will come to church and become believers is good.

It's the same thing we've done for years. The removal of IM from worship was such a change, as was even the restoration movement itself.

The problem is, IMHO, a potentially deadly mistake that "MUSIC SAVES" and that INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC SAVES MORE FASTER. We are rationalizing our dwindling numbers because we believe people want something "more exciting and fun" and that if we provide that they will come and stay and that if we don't, they will leave.

I don't think this is what the congregations adopting IM believe. More accurately, they see that the traditional restrictions put on our worship services are unbiblical restrictions and are, in fact, acting as barriers to the unchurched.

We are the restoration movement - founded on change, founded on the principle that scripture trumps tradition. It was inevitable that, over time, we would adopt our own traditions. In the spirit of our movement, we MUST be willing to give those up to do God's will.

We are, in fact, NOT doing our job. As a result of that, and that alone, our numbers are dwindling (just look at the # of people in our forum vs others). And to bring our church numbers up, we are looking to a different gospel (music, specifically, amplified stage productions) to restore (falsely) the symptoms that would exist were we in fact doing our real job - preaching the word.

I saw some numbers a year or so ago...the trend is, the non-instrumental Churches of Christ are dying. Attendance is down, the average age of membership is going up. Our young people are leaving. Record numbers of our young men being trained up into the gospel from our universities such as Abilene Christian, Oklahoma Christian, Harding, etc. are accepting jobs outside the traditional CofC. From the (admittedly) few I've spoken to, they are frustrated because they're finding that the traditional ways are not effective in bringing their peers to Christ.

The ICC (Independent Christian Churches), on the other hand, are growing like wildfire. The biggest differences between the ICC and CofC are cultural rather than scriptural. That says volumes to me.

The sad truth is, we will change, or die.

So I don't equivocate when I say I don't believe IM in our church buildings is the issue. The issue is a spiritual one - our faithfulness to evangelism, to preaching the untainted word, loving one another, and loving Him with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. Instrumental music will no more save the lost than its prohibition.

I hope this better states my position. - God bless.

I hope I'm not appearing critical of you with this post. I do understand and appreciate your position.

 

[fishon]

Apollos 1 said, OT practices do not authorize NT worship.
Worship in heaven does not authorize NT worship on earth. That is, IF such examples of worship as seen to take place in heaven are not, in fact, symbolic of something else.

And I submit that the NT does NOT denounce IM use in the Church today.

And I submit that anything that speaks of worship in heaven does NOT denounce IM use in the Church today.
fishon

 

[fishon]

Apollos 1 said, Oh by the way – WHERE is the passage that says SINCERITY makes it all okay?

I am glad you asked that, cause scripture is the ultimate director of our faith and worship; so, "WHERE is the passage that says INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC is NOT Ok?

 

[DerSchweik]

I think we'd all agree that many "worship styles" are acceptable - formal vs. casual, use of media/slides in the service, worship times, etc. There are plenty of adjustments that can and should be made by the eldership in order to better attend to the needs of the community around them.

Absolutely. And I don't want to appear the "old fogey" here at all. I think for example, OH projection, slides, video, etc. all can serve to enhance the service and the message - and given our highly technological day and age, I think we need to keep up in this regard. I'm hoping Molal can come through with the name of their software they use to project both lyrics and staff music on screen for I think that would benefit us in our congregation.

Like it our not, our culture is changing, and more rapidly than it ever has in the past. Our methods of learning and gathering information, our needs for connection with the outlying community, even our attention spans are changing in dramatic ways. We are not the same as our parents or our grandparents; their ways will not work for our children and our grandchildren.

If it is our culture and not the message that is preventing us from reaching the lost, then it is our responsibility to change. As long as we hold to scriptural truth, as long as we do not compromise scripture in order to appeal to non-christians, then any change that makes it more likely that they will come to church and become believers is good.

I do believe we need to be sensitive to cultural changes - and perhaps even adapt to some cultural changes - as long as such adaptation does not compromise scripture or His purpose for us, yes.

At the same time, Christianity has always been a counter-culture movement, always counter to the cultural values/mores of the world in which we live. Still, we are able to ply our freedom in Christ to adapt in certain ways. And I would not exclude IM from such forms of adaptation.

It's the same thing we've done for years. The removal of IM from worship was such a change, as was even the restoration movement itself.

True.

I don't think this is what the congregations adopting IM believe. More accurately, they see that the traditional restrictions put on our worship services are unbiblical restrictions and are, in fact, acting as barriers to the unchurched.

Well, I did generalize, a bad habit when trying to make a point; I'm certain none would admit to such beliefs, nor hold to them knowingly.

We are the restoration movement - founded on change, founded on the principle that scripture trumps tradition. It was inevitable that, over time, we would adopt our own traditions. In the spirit of our movement, we MUST be willing to give those up to do God's will.

Believe me when I say that I am NOT arguing for tradition. Heaven forbid! I still believe there is much value in congregational singing - GOOD congregational singing. I've seen it, it works, and it is still effective today.

But we are a generation fast losing our ability to sing, let alone sing well. Voices no longer "bring the house down" - instruments are assuming that function. Instruments are trumping our voices. ALL tradition aside, I believe that is wrong and the key unintended consequence of this "cultural adaptation."

What is lacking, IMO is excellence in song rather than transition to instruments to appeal to this culture - or any culture for that matter - particularly big raucous bands and massive speaker/amplification systems.

I saw some numbers a year or so ago...the trend is, the non-instrumental Churches of Christ are dying. Attendance is down, the average age of membership is going up. Our young people are leaving. Record numbers of our young men being trained up into the gospel from our universities such as Abilene Christian, Oklahoma Christian, Harding, etc. are accepting jobs outside the traditional CofC. From the (admittedly) few I've spoken to, they are frustrated because they're finding that the traditional ways are not effective in bringing their peers to Christ.

Well, this is of course unfortunate and truly sad. Nevertheless I would argue the lack of instruments is not the problem here - nor is instituting them necessarily the solution. I've visited a number of such congregations and - goodness!!! Horrible, boring, virtually DEAD congregations! There isn't a trumpet large enough to instill life back into such churches. Amazing Grace is sung as if attending a wake - their own!

Can music enliven these congregations, turning them from static, stale, bumps on a log to vibrant growth? I doubt it.

Can an injection of youth, bunches of teenagers, young singles, and newlyweds accomplish the same? Again, I doubt it; that's not the problem. The problems with these "dead" churches IMHO are entirely spiritual, not cultural.

The ICC (Independent Christian Churches), on the other hand, are growing like wildfire. The biggest differences between the ICC and CofC are cultural rather than scriptural. That says volumes to me.

And, no offense, but the ICOC grew like wildfire too - such vibrancy in growth should not be viewed as proof positive of the inherent value in cultural adaptation. When our large stage productions begin to convert thousands (say, 3,000) in one day, after one performance, I might be persuaded.

The sad truth is, we will change, or die.

Well, I just don't buy the need yet for this particular change.

Look around during song worship - how many people in the audience are truly singing - I mean SINGING rather than mumbling the words while enjoying the music? We attend one of those Christian churches that are growing rapidly, are big, vibrant, and attracting lots of people. And brother - we don't know how to sing. We just don't.

I hope I'm not appearing critical of you with this post. I do understand and appreciate your position.

Absolutely not brother! I appreciate the discussion immensely!! And your comments have merit! (reps btw ).

For me, one solution is teaching ourselves the importance of song again, and teaching ourselves how to sing again. I wouldn't mind instruments accompanying us - if it enhanced our voices. IMO, our culture wants exciting, vibrant, loud, raucous, fun, sacred, spiritual music in which they can participate with every fiber of their being to praise and worship our God.

There is absolutely NO REASON we can't accommodate this cultural need through congregational singing. PEOPLE LOVE TO SING - given the opportunity. We simply do not know how to sing like this anymore, except in very few congregations. It begins with hearts on fire for the Lord (something I daresay the dying congregations above may have lost) and progresses with congregational instruction in how to sing, to harmonize together for Him.

If we as a nation can sing "America the Beautiful" on any given Sunday in any given football stadium in the country with meaning, passion, and fervor - drawing tears - we, as a church ought to be able to do the same with our songs to the Lord every Sunday and arouse as much spiritual passion as we already do patriotically.

God bless ya bro! I appreciate the discussion immensely. And hey, I could be wrong!

 

[crawfish]

I think it's an honest rant. I feel the same way - there are unintended consequences to instrumental music - it makes it a show and not worship (in my opinion).

At my CoC we use a projector with the notes in SATB - I sing tenor, mostly............I'm not a good singer. But I try and I try my hardest and I try to become better. it is this want to get better, to improve, that I think the Lord enjoys. I think by having instrumental worship (even praise teams) there is no want or need to improve, the focus is taken away from the Lord.

I love acapella music - it is difficult to sing, but well worth it, in my opinion.

Here is a funny fact. Barton Stone, one of the pioneers of the restoration movement (along with Alexander Campbell), refused to put notes in his songbook. The reason? He was afraid people would concentrate more on hitting the right notes than on the words.

It's funny how this argument has changed over the years.

 

[Molal]

Here is a funny fact. Barton Stone, one of the pioneers of the restoration movement (along with Alexander Campbell), refused to put notes in his songbook. The reason? He was afraid people would concentrate more on hitting the right notes than on the words.

It's funny how this argument has changed over the years.

Now that is funny. Mind if I quote you?

It is funny how things change and how worried we are about different things......

Thanks crawfish

 

[fishon]

Here is a funny fact. Barton Stone, one of the pioneers of the restoration movement (along with Alexander Campbell), refused to put notes in his songbook. The reason? He was afraid people would concentrate more on hitting the right notes than on the words.

It's funny how this argument has changed over the years.

crawfish,
I don't want to seem picky, but can you document that Stone "refused to put notes in his songbook?"

I am of IM CofC, but would be hesitant to use that as an argument for a hymnal as an addition to worship unless I can document it.
fishon
</IMG>

 

[crawfish]

crawfish,
I don't want to seem picky, but can you document that Stone "refused to put notes in his songbook?"

I am of IM CofC, but would be hesitant to use that as an argument for a hymnal as an addition to worship unless I can document it.
fishon
</IMG>

I'm not using it for an argument...just as a humorous aside.

As for where I got it from - it was my minister, in a sermon where he was discussing our future addition of an IM service. I re-listened to the series today because of this thread. I suspect I know his source - but I'll have to do some research. Unfortunately, I loaned my dad the book a year ago and haven't got it back.

 

[DerSchweik]

LOL - touche!

Here is a funny fact. Barton Stone, one of the pioneers of the restoration movement (along with Alexander Campbell), refused to put notes in his songbook. The reason? He was afraid people would concentrate more on hitting the right notes than on the words.

It's funny how this argument has changed over the years.

 

[Apollos1]

fishon asked - I am glad you asked that, cause scripture is the ultimate director of our faith and worship; so, "WHERE is the passage that says INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC is NOT Ok?

Colossians 3:17 - "Whatsoever you do in word or deed, do all in the name [by the authority] of Jesus Christ..."

Is worship with IM "rooted" in the NT? You can't find a single scripture to authorize it!

Not one of you can say that authority for IM is found in the NT. If you could, you would produce it. Instead you crawl through the backdoor of "silence" to get IM into your worship. God told you what He wanted - you want to give Him another TYPE of music - an addition!

Odd isn't it? You did not say a single word about Saul and what he did....or Nadab and Abihu... or the others I gave example of. Why is that??? Hmmmmmmmm???

Of course I can eat your lunch and then spit it back out at you using YOUR application of "Silence". Are you truly willing to accept that?

I could say INFANT BAPTISM is okay - b/c the Bible doesn't specifically prohibit it.
Women elders? A pope in Rome? An EXTRA book like the book of Mormon...?
The Bible doesn't prohibit any of these as YOU apply the principle of "Silence".
fishon - ARE YOU READY for such?

You see IM can not be found in the NT. ALL that is needed for man's salvation has been supplied by God - 2Peter1:3, 2Tim 3:16f. You just aren't happy with that are you?

Do you think God forgot something? Was it an oversight? Perhaps it was a lack of love?

2 John 9 - Whosoever goes onward and abides not IN the doctrine of Christ has not God.

Make the application - but make it how God has shown it to be from times of old.

 

[Apollos1]

To all -

I will be traveling for about 8-10 days. I will take up the fight when I return...

 

[DerSchweik]

To all -

I will be traveling for about 8-10 days. I will take up the fight when I return...

Have a safe trip, bro! God bless!

 

[Apollos1]

crawfish -

I am not ignoring you my friend. So here is one for the road...

crawfish - What psalms do you think they were referring to?
Not all psalms were written by David or in the book of Psalms. In context of the verse, "psalm" was one of the spiritual songs of that list. Nothing there suggests the book that David wrote.

crawfish - pleasing in the OT + not mentioned in the NT = BANNED?
"Pleasing" where? And HOW does a once acceptable OT practice authorize anything for NEW testament worship?

Ex. Animal sacrifice pleasing in OT = Authorized in the New??
or
Sabbath keeping in the OT + not mentioned in the NT = Pleasing today??????????? This is your application isn't it?
or
Pentecost observance pleasing in the OT + not mentioned in NT = Pleasing today??? Let me quote you on this...
"That makes absolutely no sense."

So crawfish, when you figure out HOW to authroize OT practices/worship for the NT church - let us know.

Talk to you in a few days.

 

[crawfish]

crawfish - What psalms do you think they were referring to?
Not all psalms were written by David or in the book of Psalms. In context of the verse, "psalm" was one of the spiritual songs of that list. Nothing there suggests the book that David wrote.

True - but there is no question they were part of the whole. The Jews of the time would have been intimately familiar with them.

"Pleasing" where? And HOW does a once acceptable OT practice authorize anything for NEW testament worship?

Ex. Animal sacrifice pleasing in OT = Authorized in the New??
or
Sabbath keeping in the OT + not mentioned in the NT = Pleasing today??????????? This is your application isn't it?
or
Pentecost observance pleasing in the OT + not mentioned in NT = Pleasing today??? Let me quote you on this...
"That makes absolutely no sense."

So crawfish, when you figure out HOW to authroize OT practices/worship for the NT church - let us know.

Talk to you in a few days.

When you get back, you can look up the passages I mentioned earlier in this thread for "pleasing".

Also, the NT DOES deal with sacrifice and Sabbath. Look it up. I'm sure God wouldn't mind us celebrating Pentecost, but I don't hold it as a command (as I do not for IM). Not commanded, but not wrong.

Again, this won't end any differently than it did before. The same arguments from both sides. I don't see a need to reiterate our views yet again.

I hope you enjoy your trip! May the Lord be with you.

 

[cremi]

Wondering here...

If you have to work so hard to make sure you are following all of the rules so that God will not be so displeased in your worship, is that really a faith based on grace? Or is it based on works?

Somehow, I can't see Paul or Petter sitting around in the first century going toe-to-toe with the new converts, making sure they used only grape juice and had no instruments. Romans 14 surely needs to apply here.

A true Christian will be filled with the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is living within you, then you will be producing the fruit of the Spirit, won't you? It seems to be a natural by-product of having the Spirit living in you. That being said---if one is striving to follow after the Lord and glorify HIM in all things, then one won't be worried about dotting all of "i's" and crossing the "t's", will they?

So much of this seems to be nothing more than a modern version of being a Pharisee---making sure you follow the rules so that you won't displease God and lose your salvation. Wow...we can't be good enough...no matter how hard we try. Even *if* we sinned never again, from this day forward, we still wouldn't be good enough to get into heaven.

That's why Jesus had to die. That was the only way we ever could have a chance. If we could have possibly done things correctly on our own, there would have been no need for Jesus to have died.

I'm not saying we should just go out and do what we want and call it all okay, but again...if the Spirit is leading us and we are truly listening to the nudgings of the Holy Spirit living in us, we aren't going to displease him.

Gee...I'm starting to sound like Baptist!