CofC adds instrumental worships and deems it right???

[DerSchweik]

Want to single out a small portion of your post and say that I wholeheartedly agree.

Ephesians 5:19 does NOT say that if we sing without instrumental music our singing will be uplifting, acceptable, and pleasing to God. Rather, it says, "... Singing and making melody in your hearts to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ." The heart of one who loves God, and is thankful and filled with gratitude is what God wants to accompany the singing. Without this, the singing is going no farther than the singer's voice carries. On the other hand, singing coming from the heart of such a person carries all the way to the "ears" of God in heaven.

What? You don't agree with my WHOLE argument?

I agree - the "heart" of the matter is indeed the heart.

I guess my "bottom line" is this is a subjective topic, subject to the form and manner in which either IM or song is conducted. If neither IM, nor stale singing distract or deter from worship, I think God will be pleased, as much as He will be pleased if either enhance worship for the congregation. I would add the requirement for edification in either, regardless (1 Cor 6:12, 10:23, etc.).

God bless!

 

[crawfish]

Now, let's compare this thought to the melody specified in Ephesians 5:19. Singing is to come with/from the heart of each singer. Therefore, in order for the instruments to aid singing, it must aid the aid or expedite the melody coming with/from the heart. Does it? Personally, I think it makes singing sound better to our ears, but the issue is whether or not it aids in the melody coming with/from the heart (the inner man). If it doesn't, it is an addition to that which is specified. Relating it to Hebrews 7:12-13 & 8:4, it would be like having a priest from the tribe of Levi and one from the tribe of Judah. Will that "fly" in light of what God specified? Make sense?

You're making some assumptions. First of all, it assumes that one cannot sing and make music in their heart WITH INSTRUMENTS. You make the assumption that it is a different kind of worship, which is not necessarily - or in reality - true.

Second, it's the same argument used (of old) against four-part harmonies and songbooks with musical scores. Some worried that the attempt to try and make the songs "sound good" would cause people to focus on the notes rather than the words. And I'll guarantee you, that is absolutely true - I have been guilty of it myself.

I remember back in my teen years. The youth group in my church
all sat on the same two rows during service. There was an elderly lady who sat two rows back from us with the worst voice I think I've ever heard in my life. If she ever hit a note, it was by accident. And what she lacked in musical acumen, she made up in volume. We used to sit and make fun of her. One day, it hit me - WHO was justified by God during worship? Me, with a pretty good bass voice, or her? I had to admit it was her. She definitely sang from the heart, sang because she loved being at church and loved worshiping God.

Whatever the situation - instruments or no, harmonies or no, each individual is responsible to God for his or her own self. God understands the heart behind what we do. It doesn't matter how it sounds, only that you do it. Like I said, I cannot make assumptions about what is proper for worship in terms of the material methods used, as long as they are not contradictory to scripture. The arguments against IM, which most CofC'ers feel is "clearly understood by the bible", takes a bunch of disjointed passages, sometimes out of context, and a few logical fallacies and cobbles them together into a dogma.

If you don't feel it's right to worship with IM, then it would be wrong for you. That much I admit.

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by - DRA -

Now, let's compare this thought to the melody specified in Ephesians 5:19. Singing is to come with/from the heart of each singer. Therefore, in order for the instruments to aid singing, it must aid the aid or expedite the melody coming with/from the heart. Does it? Personally, I think it makes singing sound better to our ears, but the issue is whether or not it aids in the melody coming with/from the heart (the inner man). If it doesn't, it is an addition to that which is specified. Relating it to Hebrews 7:12-13 & 8:4, it would be like having a priest from the tribe of Levi and one from the tribe of Judah. Will that "fly" in light of what God specified? Make sense?

You're making some assumptions. First of all, it assumes that one cannot sing and make music in their heart WITH INSTRUMENTS. You make the assumption that it is a different kind of worship, which is not necessarily - or in reality - true.

I guess you are correct ... in a way. I'm assuming that "singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" in Ephesians 5:19 is synonymous with "sing psalms" in James 5:13, and these passages are synonymous with "singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord" in Colossians 3:16 and with "singing hymns to God" in Acts 16:25. And, I'm probably also guilty of assuming that it is no problem discerning the use of instruments when they a part of the discussion (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:7-8, Revelation 14:2, Revelation 15:2).

You know, given some thought - please bear with my folly - I'm also assuming that jumping up and down on one foot isn't under consideration in Ephesians 5:19. I know ... it doesn't mean that one can't sing from the heart while jumping up and down on one foot. After all, as long as one sings from the heart, then we are open to a lot of options, right? I mean, it's not just about instruments. The door is open to a lot of "heart warming" options. Hopping on one foot ... or both feet. Hopping and turning around in a circle. Whew. We are really getting into it now. Throw in some arm motions and we've got jumping jacks. They will surely get the heart pumping. Why not? Who says they can't help us sing better from the heart, right? You know, calisthenics might also work before baptism. Folks would get all hot and worked up and might be more inclined to get in the water to cool off. We'd "convert" more folks that way, right? I know things are getting a mite carried away. But, where exactly do we draw the line and say, "Enough is enough, we need to return to the truth of God's word?"

 

[DerSchweik]

Forgive me a bit of cynicism in all this, but exactly where does one fit, or have time for the Gospel in a discussion like this? Of all the recent threads in our forum, this one has the most messages by nearly 2:1. Why is that?


If we get this question answered once and for all, and to everyone's satisfaction - will we have laid, finally, sufficient foundation for moving on to the Gospel - or are there other critical topics we must "get right" first before we have sufficient and proper foundation for a Gospel discussion?

I've put my 2 cents in on this topic like everyone else - but doesn't this get tiresome after awhile?

 

[JDIBe]

Forgive me a bit of cynicism in all this, but exactly where does one fit, or have time for the Gospel in a discussion like this? Of all the recent threads in our forum, this one has the most messages by nearly 2:1. Why is that?


If we get this question answered once and for all, and to everyone's satisfaction - will we have laid, finally, sufficient foundation for moving on to the Gospel - or are there other critical topics we must "get right" first before we have sufficient and proper foundation for a Gospel discussion?

I've put my 2 cents in on this topic like everyone else - but doesn't this get tiresome after awhile?

Because we all agree on the basic core of the Gospel. (We are more alike than we would admit, sometimes) When discussing topics with others, it is usually the topics that you DISAGREE on which are discussed most.

I'm sure if you wish to discuss a core Gospel issue, you will find takers there as well.

And yes......it does get tiresome after awhile. But you can't ever reach a satisfactory agreement with others if you don't try.

 

[crawfish]

Forgive me a bit of cynicism in all this, but exactly where does one fit, or have time for the Gospel in a discussion like this? Of all the recent threads in our forum, this one has the most messages by nearly 2:1. Why is that?


If we get this question answered once and for all, and to everyone's satisfaction - will we have laid, finally, sufficient foundation for moving on to the Gospel - or are there other critical topics we must "get right" first before we have sufficient and proper foundation for a Gospel discussion?

I've put my 2 cents in on this topic like everyone else - but doesn't this get tiresome after awhile?

You're right. I got tired of the argument many months ago, but it only took a little prodding to get back into it.

For me this is very personal right now. My church adopted an IM service just over a year ago; my parents, very traditional NICoC people, do not agree with that decision, and they don't really like the fact that we're staying put. I feel it has been a blessing to find people here that believe as they do, and can deftly explain the position's scriptural and historical basis. From that understanding I hope to be able to more clearly state my position to my parents. I have no illusions that they'll ever feel comfortable with IM in their lifetimes, but I'd like to get them past the point where they think it's a sin.

I'm sure I have a different take than some, but I see the value of this board in discussing, hopefully respectfully, the differences between us and the scriptural grounding that underpins them. I have learned a great deal through the debates here - in particular, one of the discussions focused my study on 1 Corinthians in a way that led to a much deeper understanding of the text. Even dispute can be a blessing.

 

[DerSchweik]

Because we all agree on the basic core of the Gospel. (We are more alike than we would admit, sometimes) When discussing topics with others, it is usually the topics that you DISAGREE on which are discussed most.

I'm sure if you wish to discuss a core Gospel issue, you will find takers there as well.

And yes......it does get tiresome after awhile. But you can't ever reach a satisfactory agreement with others if you don't try.

Appreciate the comments bro! Thanks! Trying!

You're right. I got tired of the argument many months ago, but it only took a little prodding to get back into it.

For me this is very personal right now. My church adopted an IM service just over a year ago; my parents, very traditional NICoC people, do not agree with that decision, and they don't really like the fact that we're staying put. I feel it has been a blessing to find people here that believe as they do, and can deftly explain the position's scriptural and historical basis. From that understanding I hope to be able to more clearly state my position to my parents. I have no illusions that they'll ever feel comfortable with IM in their lifetimes, but I'd like to get them past the point where they think it's a sin.

I'm sure I have a different take than some, but I see the value of this board in discussing, hopefully respectfully, the differences between us and the scriptural grounding that underpins them. I have learned a great deal through the debates here - in particular, one of the discussions focused my study on 1 Corinthians in a way that led to a much deeper understanding of the text. Even dispute can be a blessing.

Thx C. I value the discussion as well - even if it only generate fellowship among us.

I believe that, since our God is a person, we do well to approach Him as such. I'm trying to think of when He's ever done anything the same way twice, OT or New. And it makes me think of what happens whenever we do the same thing the same way over and over again. He's not like that, and I don't He intended us to be that way either. Again, I generalize - but it seems to me He'd prefer us more relational than religious, and I think Scripture bears this out.

Bless ya bro! Thanks for the comments!!

 

[- DRA -]

Forgive me a bit of cynicism in all this, but exactly where does one fit, or have time for the Gospel in a discussion like this? Of all the recent threads in our forum, this one has the most messages by nearly 2:1. Why is that?

It may be because this thread isn't about instrumental music per se, but more about "interpreting" Scripture. I've only been involved for a week or so is the discussions and haven't made too many posts. My first response, if memory serves me correctly - cause I've also been working behind the scenes via PM with someone of the Eastern Orthodox persuasion, was to you concerning the silence of the Scripture. It is a factor in Bible interpretation, or either the Hebrew writer erred in 7:13-14 & 8:4 (which I really don't think any of us believe). Other concerns have arisen about why God didn't come right out and say instrumental music is wrong. Old story. Noah. God specified gopherwood to be used in the building of the ark. Noah did what God said. Noah was a man of faith. Basic Bible story. How is it that we understand that gopherwood was authorized and that's what Noah used (hopefully, we do), but when we come to passages like Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, James 5:13, Acts 16:25 we loose our ability to discern what God wants us to do? Is it that hard too understand? I think we'd agree that Paul charged Timothy to preach the word in 2 Timothy 4:2. The Eastern Orthodox [EO] folks I've been studying with are intent on reading the early church fathers and latter Traditions (those that arose after the first century - and they do use a capital "T" for their designation) into that passage. I've been telling them it doesn't belong there. Am I mistaken? After all, if it is okay to read instruments into Ephesians 5:19, Acts 16:15, etc., then it should be okay for the EO folks to read things into passages when they want to. Is that right (i.e., how truth is discerned)? If so, then I've surely been going about things all wrong. That would mean the real truth is about what we read into the Bible verses vs. what the Scriptures say without our "help." Frankly, I'm just simply not willing to "buy" into that kind of reasoning (Proverbs 23:23).

If we get this question answered once and for all, and to everyone's satisfaction - will we have laid, finally, sufficient foundation for moving on to the Gospel - or are there other critical topics we must "get right" first before we have sufficient and proper foundation for a Gospel discussion?

Well, I might be mistaken, but I kinda have the understanding the folks on here, at least for the biggest part, are Christians. And, this is an opportunity for us to discuss the things that are beyond the first principles, which would include things that divide us. However, if first principles need to be discussed, then I am certainly not adverse to discussing those things.

I've put my 2 cents in on this topic like everyone else - but doesn't this get tiresome after awhile?

Yes, it does. A lot of times I feel drained. Mentally. Physically. Heaven is a place of rest. And, glory. Not mine. But God's. I want to be there with Him to enjoy it. Therefore, I labor when I can - trying my best to give both Him and His word the respect and reverence they deserve - while looking forward to the eternal home and all the blessings associated with it. And, last but not least, I want others to enjoy it also. Therefore, I labor in the Lord's service as I do.

 

[- DRA -]

I have learned a great deal through the debates here - in particular, one of the discussions focused my study on 1 Corinthians in a way that led to a much deeper understanding of the text. Even dispute can be a blessing.

 

[freespiritchurch]

First, concerning the works of the flesh, let's note Galatians 5:19-21 (NKJV):

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Don't overlook the red-bolded font.

And, let's see if God gave us detailed instructions under the law of Christ concerning what He wants:

Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.



In a sense, you have a point. God does NOT say He is displeased with instrumental music in Ephesians 5:19. But, He does tell us what pleases Him. And, jumping through hoops is NOT required. It's just a matter of doing what He says.

Question:
When God specifies what He wants, does He have to give an exhaustive list of everything He won't accept? Take the text you posted ... Leviticus 1:4-9. Does God list all the sacrifices He won't accept, all the folks who could offer the sacrifice He won't accept, or all the various ways of offering the sacrifice He won't accept?

The problem is that a verse that can be applied to worship is not the same as a list of instructions for worship. Leviticus 1 is a manual for how specific acts of worship should be conducted. The verse you're quoting is nothing of the sort.

If you really look at Ephesians 5:19, you'll see that making music in spiritual worship is being contrasted with drunkenness. If you consider Acts 2:13, you'll see that Spirit-filled Christian worship could be confused with drunkenness. This brings up a couple of points:

First, Paul is contrasting "hymns, psalms, and spiritual songs" with the debuached behavior of drunk people.

Second, when early Christians worshiped, they were so exuberant that they seemed drunk. Does that characterize the worship in your church? If not, you are not really following the form of worship that the Bible describes.

Alan

 

[DerSchweik]

The problem is that a verse that can be applied to worship is not the same as a list of instructions for worship. Leviticus 1 is a manual for how specific acts of worship should be conducted. The verse you're quoting is nothing of the sort.

If you really look at Ephesians 5:19, you'll see that making music in spiritual worship is being contrasted with drunkenness. If you consider Acts 2:13, you'll see that Spirit-filled Christian worship could be confused with drunkenness. This brings up a couple of points:

First, Paul is contrasting "hymns, psalms, and spiritual songs" with the debuached behavior of drunk people.

Second, when early Christians worshiped, they were so exuberant that they seemed drunk. Does that characterize the worship in your church? If not, you are not really following the form of worship that the Bible describes.

Alan

Next topic: Grape juice - or wine?

Well stated Alan. I imagine it would it be appropriate even to say the broader context here is how to conduct our daily walk with God.

One of the key functions of the Spirit is the enabling or imparting of utterance. V12 introduces the notion of what NOT to speak as part of the context, while our verse is preceded by the admonition to "be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another..." etc., the ultimate purpose in our walk being to make the best use of our time as we can (vs 15f), avoiding the flesh altogether, yet focusing on the Spirit instead.

So it seems our "walk" in Him is more the context here rather than our "worship" of Him (Rom 8:5ff) - which I think would meld with your point?

 

[- DRA -]

The problem is that a verse that can be applied to worship is not the same as a list of instructions for worship. Leviticus 1 is a manual for how specific acts of worship should be conducted. The verse you're quoting is nothing of the sort.

Okay, please explain how a passage that can be applied to worship is not the same as passages that specifically deal with the worship. For instance, I agree that Ephesians 5:19 is not specific to the assembly, but certainly is applicable to the assembly. So, please explain how Ephesians 5:19 is different than passages that teach us specifically about formal worship services to God. Here's an example of what I'm thinking about: 2 Timothy 4:2. Paul commanded Timothy to "preach the word." Nothing specific about the assembly in that context. Therefore, was Timothy at liberty to preach something else in the assembly? Do you see a problem with such reasoning?

Okay, here's what I'm wondering: Where are the passages that specifically deal with whether or not we are to sing, play, do a combination of the two, or a number of other options in the formal worship services to God under the gospel of His Son? Obviously, singing had a part in the worship services per 1 Corinthians 14, but that context is dealing with singing involving spiritual gifts - which are no longer directly applicable to today's worship - because spiritual gifts have ceased (Hopefully, we agree on that point!). So, let's discuss the passages that specifically deal with singing/playing/whatever in the worship service so we discern the differences between them and passages such as Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, Acts 16:25, and James 5:13. Please list the passages you have in mind so we can discuss.

If you really look at Ephesians 5:19, you'll see that making music in spiritual worship is being contrasted with drunkenness. If you consider Acts 2:13, you'll see that Spirit-filled Christian worship could be confused with drunkenness. This brings up a couple of points:

Thank you for the idea. I think looking at Ephesians 5 is an excellent idea. I start with verse 1: "1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children." Nothing specific to the assembly in that verse. We should imitate God in our behavior both in and out of the assembly, as I understand how we are to live under the gospel. Let's skip down to verse 6: "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." Nothing specific to the assembly in that passage. However, we could be deceived by teaching/preaching done in the assembly, so it should apply. However, all teaching/preaching isn't done in the assembly, so we should apply this teaching to both inside and outside the assembly, right? Skipping down to verse 15: "See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise," This applies to both in and out of the assembly as I understand it. Wouldn't restrict it to one or the other. Agree? Verse 16: "redeeming the time, because the days are evil." A continuation of verse 15; we are to use our time wisely during our Christian walk. Same application as preceding verses. Both in and out of the assembly. Verse 17: "Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is." Agree totally. We need to ensure our walk is in harmony with God's will. Applies to both in and out of the assembly. Doesn't make sense to do one without the other. Agree? Verse 18: "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit," Definitely not wise. Keeping in mind the roaring lion seeking to devour us (1 Peter 5:8) and the devices he uses to entice us to sin (2 Corinthians 2:11), we should be sober (clear-headed) per 1 Thessalonians 5:6,8. Rather than being drunken, we should be filled with the Spirit (which I understand to mean to be led by the word of God which the Spirit inspired). Once again, applies to both in and out of the assembly. Need to be clear-headed in the assembly and out, right? Verse 19: "speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord," Those led by the Spirit of God speak/sing to another and to the Lord by lifting their voices in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Once again, nothing in the context to suggest that the discussion is focused on the behavior in the assembly versus behavior outside. However, look at the preceding verses. Let's focus on verse 18: "Do not be drunk with wine." Does this mean it is acceptable to be drunken with wine in the assembly versus outside the assembly, or is it condemning both behaviors? Likewise, when God's says what to do to please Him, such as in verses 18b-19, is there any sound basis for saying this only applies outside the assembly versus inside the assembly, or vice-versa? It simply isn't true in the preceding passages in the context. So, how is this passage (verse 19) supposed to be different? If Leviticus 1 is supposed to make a difference somehow, then please explain how it connects with the context and verse 19.

First, Paul is contrasting "hymns, psalms, and spiritual songs" with the debuached behavior of drunk people.

Actually, the contrast is between those who are drunken with wine versus those filled with the Spirit in verse 18. Verse 19 tells us about the behavior of those who are filled with the Spirit.

Second, when early Christians worshiped, they were so exuberant that they seemed drunk. Does that characterize the worship in your church? If not, you are not really following the form of worship that the Bible describes.

Alan

Now, let's go back to your previous point about Acts 2:13. In the context of that passage, the Holy Spirit came upon the apostles as Jesus promised (in Acts 1:5) in Acts 2:1-4. As a result, they spoke in tongues or other languages. The Jews heard them speaking the wonderful works of God in their native tongues (verses 8-12). On the other hand, some Jews mocked them by saying they were drunken (verse 13). May I be so bold as to ask how this unjust, erroneous, and mocking statement about the apostles has anything to do with our worship to God under the gospel of Christ?

Does drunken behavior characterize the worship of the local church where I am one of the elders? No, it certainly does not! The closest to it you will find is a particular visitor that occasionally comes to the services that reeks of alcohol. When that happens, I explain the basic rules to him (i.e., 1 Corinthians 14:40): he's welcome when he's sober, and he's expected to behave himself.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. I fail to see where imitating drunken behavior is fitting for a Christian's behavior - either in or out of the assembly. Take Acts 2:13. In what way do you "see" the apostles behaving as drunken men? The text says they spoke in other languages ... fluently. Folks understood them clearly. They understood the various languages being spoken. I think the idea that they were drunken was simply a feeble attempt to undermine what was occurring. For sure, it doesn't begin to explain the sound that accompanied the Holy Spirit's arrival, nor does it explain the tongues of fire that appeared over the apostles (see Acts 2:2-3). Perhaps you can explain explain more about how this is an example of "drunken" behavior we should imitate?

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by mrconstance

The problem is that a verse that can be applied to worship is not the same as a list of instructions for worship. Leviticus 1 is a manual for how specific acts of worship should be conducted. The verse you're quoting is nothing of the sort.

If you really look at Ephesians 5:19, you'll see that making music in spiritual worship is being contrasted with drunkenness. If you consider Acts 2:13, you'll see that Spirit-filled Christian worship could be confused with drunkenness. This brings up a couple of points:

First, Paul is contrasting "hymns, psalms, and spiritual songs" with the debuached behavior of drunk people.

Second, when early Christians worshiped, they were so exuberant that they seemed drunk. Does that characterize the worship in your church? If not, you are not really following the form of worship that the Bible describes.

Alan

Next topic: Grape juice - or wine?

Well stated Alan. I imagine it would it be appropriate even to say the broader context here is how to conduct our daily walk with God.

One of the key functions of the Spirit is the enabling or imparting of utterance. V12 introduces the notion of what NOT to speak as part of the context, while our verse is preceded by the admonition to "be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another..." etc., the ultimate purpose in our walk being to make the best use of our time as we can (vs 15f), avoiding the flesh altogether, yet focusing on the Spirit instead.

So it seems our "walk" in Him is more the context here rather than our "worship" of Him (Rom 8:5ff) - which I think would meld with your point?

I suggest starting a thread based on Acts 2:13 and explaining how this passage:

1.) Presents the apostles as if they actually displayed drunken behavior
2.) Applies to the assembly of God's people to worship Him
3.) Is an example for us concerning how we should act (i.e., drunken) - either in or out of the assembly

I suspect this would make for some interesting discussion.

 

[freespiritchurch]

Originally Posted by mrconstance

The problem is that a verse that can be applied to worship is not the same as a list of instructions for worship. Leviticus 1 is a manual for how specific acts of worship should be conducted. The verse you're quoting is nothing of the sort.

If you really look at Ephesians 5:19, you'll see that making music in spiritual worship is being contrasted with drunkenness. If you consider Acts 2:13, you'll see that Spirit-filled Christian worship could be confused with drunkenness. This brings up a couple of points:

First, Paul is contrasting "hymns, psalms, and spiritual songs" with the debuached behavior of drunk people.

Second, when early Christians worshiped, they were so exuberant that they seemed drunk. Does that characterize the worship in your church? If not, you are not really following the form of worship that the Bible describes.

Alan




I suggest starting a thread based on Acts 2:13 and explaining how this passage:

1.) Presents the apostles as if they actually displayed drunken behavior
2.) Applies to the assembly of God's people to worship Him
3.) Is an example for us concerning how we should act (i.e., drunken) - either in or out of the assembly

I suspect this would make for some interesting discussion.

I suggest starting a thread based on Acts 2:13 and explaining how this passage:

1.) Presents the apostles as if they actually displayed drunken behavior
2.) Applies to the assembly of God's people to worship Him
3.) Is an example for us concerning how we should act (i.e., drunken) - either in or out of the assembly

I suspect this would make for some interesting discussion.

I would like to take this in a different direction. Based on all the descriptions of worship in the New Testament, what would you expect to see when you walked into a Christian worship service around 50 AD?

Alan

 

[freespiritchurch]

Okay, please explain how a passage that can be applied to worship is not the same as passages that specifically deal with the worship. For instance, I agree that Ephesians 5:19 is not specific to the assembly, but certainly is applicable to the assembly. So, please explain how Ephesians 5:19 is different than passages that teach us specifically about formal worship services to God. Here's an example of what I'm thinking about: 2 Timothy 4:2. Paul commanded Timothy to "preach the word." Nothing specific about the assembly in that context. Therefore, was Timothy at liberty to preach something else in the assembly? Do you see a problem with such reasoning?

Okay, here's what I'm wondering: Where are the passages that specifically deal with whether or not we are to sing, play, do a combination of the two, or a number of other options in the formal worship services to God under the gospel of His Son? Obviously, singing had a part in the worship services per 1 Corinthians 14, but that context is dealing with singing involving spiritual gifts - which are no longer directly applicable to today's worship - because spiritual gifts have ceased (Hopefully, we agree on that point!). So, let's discuss the passages that specifically deal with singing/playing/whatever in the worship service so we discern the differences between them and passages such as Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, Acts 16:25, and James 5:13. Please list the passages you have in mind so we can discuss.



Thank you for the idea. I think looking at Ephesians 5 is an excellent idea. I start with verse 1: "1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children." Nothing specific to the assembly in that verse. We should imitate God in our behavior both in and out of the assembly, as I understand how we are to live under the gospel. Let's skip down to verse 6: "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." Nothing specific to the assembly in that passage. However, we could be deceived by teaching/preaching done in the assembly, so it should apply. However, all teaching/preaching isn't done in the assembly, so we should apply this teaching to both inside and outside the assembly, right? Skipping down to verse 15: "See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise," This applies to both in and out of the assembly as I understand it. Wouldn't restrict it to one or the other. Agree? Verse 16: "redeeming the time, because the days are evil." A continuation of verse 15; we are to use our time wisely during our Christian walk. Same application as preceding verses. Both in and out of the assembly. Verse 17: "Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is." Agree totally. We need to ensure our walk is in harmony with God's will. Applies to both in and out of the assembly. Doesn't make sense to do one without the other. Agree? Verse 18: "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit," Definitely not wise. Keeping in mind the roaring lion seeking to devour us (1 Peter 5:8) and the devices he uses to entice us to sin (2 Corinthians 2:11), we should be sober (clear-headed) per 1 Thessalonians 5:6,8. Rather than being drunken, we should be filled with the Spirit (which I understand to mean to be led by the word of God which the Spirit inspired). Once again, applies to both in and out of the assembly. Need to be clear-headed in the assembly and out, right? Verse 19: "speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord," Those led by the Spirit of God speak/sing to another and to the Lord by lifting their voices in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Once again, nothing in the context to suggest that the discussion is focused on the behavior in the assembly versus behavior outside. However, look at the preceding verses. Let's focus on verse 18: "Do not be drunk with wine." Does this mean it is acceptable to be drunken with wine in the assembly versus outside the assembly, or is it condemning both behaviors? Likewise, when God's says what to do to please Him, such as in verses 18b-19, is there any sound basis for saying this only applies outside the assembly versus inside the assembly, or vice-versa? It simply isn't true in the preceding passages in the context. So, how is this passage (verse 19) supposed to be different? If Leviticus 1 is supposed to make a difference somehow, then please explain how it connects with the context and verse 19.



Actually, the contrast is between those who are drunken with wine versus those filled with the Spirit in verse 18. Verse 19 tells us about the behavior of those who are filled with the Spirit.



Now, let's go back to your previous point about Acts 2:13. In the context of that passage, the Holy Spirit came upon the apostles as Jesus promised (in Acts 1:5) in Acts 2:1-4. As a result, they spoke in tongues or other languages. The Jews heard them speaking the wonderful works of God in their native tongues (verses 8-12). On the other hand, some Jews mocked them by saying they were drunken (verse 13). May I be so bold as to ask how this unjust, erroneous, and mocking statement about the apostles has anything to do with our worship to God under the gospel of Christ?

Does drunken behavior characterize the worship of the local church where I am one of the elders? No, it certainly does not! The closest to it you will find is a particular visitor that occasionally comes to the services that reeks of alcohol. When that happens, I explain the basic rules to him (i.e., 1 Corinthians 14:40): he's welcome when he's sober, and he's expected to behave himself.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. I fail to see where imitating drunken behavior is fitting for a Christian's behavior - either in or out of the assembly. Take Acts 2:13. In what way do you "see" the apostles behaving as drunken men? The text says they spoke in other languages ... fluently. Folks understood them clearly. They understood the various languages being spoken. I think the idea that they were drunken was simply a feeble attempt to undermine what was occurring. For sure, it doesn't begin to explain the sound that accompanied the Holy Spirit's arrival, nor does it explain the tongues of fire that appeared over the apostles (see Acts 2:2-3). Perhaps you can explain explain more about how this is an example of "drunken" behavior we should imitate?

As far as I can tell, DerSchweik, DRA, and I are all on the same page.

Ephesians 5:19 is a discussion of how Christians should spend their time in ways that honor God, and avoid debauchery. Thus, Paul's command there is not meant to be an instruction for worship, but an instruction for Christian life.

Are we really in agreement on that point?

Alan

 

[Molal]

We should sticky this thread.

 

[- DRA -]

I would like to take this in a different direction. Based on all the descriptions of worship in the New Testament, what would you expect to see when you walked into a Christian worship service around 50 AD?

Alan

Before changing directions, could you please respond to the points made in Post # 72. I truly, honestly, and sincerely believe the reasoning you presented should be evaluated and discussed to ensure it falls into the realm of sound doctrine.

As for worship services around AD 50, 1 Corinthians chapter 14 gives us some insight of the worship services close to that time period.

 

[- DRA -]

As far as I can tell, DerSchweik, DRA, and I are all on the same page.

Ephesians 5:19 is a discussion of how Christians should spend their time in ways that honor God, and avoid debauchery. Thus, Paul's command there is not meant to be an instruction for worship, but an instruction for Christian life.

Are we really in agreement on that point?

Alan

Can't speak for DerSchweik, but you have definitely misunderstood DRA. As previously discussed, Ephesians 5:19 applies to the assembly. That's my position. Your reasoning, as I understand it, was that it is unfair to apply it to the assembly. I beg to differ. What I have asked ... and still am asking ... are for the passages that teach us about singing/making music/or whatever we are supposed to do along that line in our worship services to God. Assuming you would agree that singing/music has a place in our worship, and according to your reasoning we shouldn't apply Ephesians 5:19 to it, then I am very interested to hear which passages you think apply to the assembly.

And, I also asked you to help me understand your reasoning better in Post # 72. Please respond to that post so we can ensure we are in agreement. As it stands now, not to be offensive - just straightforward and factual - we are NOT in agreement at this time. Perhaps we can be.

 

[freespiritchurch]

I am not responding to your line of argument because it's based on what I see as a fatally flawed method of interpreting the Bible. In general, the Bible is meant to be read in passages, not verses, and it is not appropriate to use a single verse as the basis for a doctrine or practice unless it's clear that the verse was intended to stand by itself (I'm thinking, for example, of some parts of Proverbs).

I don't see any passages in the Bible that were written to teach Christians about the proper use of music in worship. So I see instrumental music as a point on which the Scriptures are silent.

Given that discrepancy, it seems to me that the best place to start is with a discussion of what the passages you cite are about, so that we can see if we have any common ground on what they teach us about music in Christian life and worship.

Alan

 

[bling]

My question is more basic: How does the Holy Spirit define “righteous worship” in scripture?
I am not looking for a dictionary definition or descriptions that apply to pagan worship, but one definition that would apply to all correct usage of “worship” in scripture.

We know that offering up to God our obedience to “human” commands is “vain worship”. So is righteous worship the opposite, “Offering up to God obedience to His commands would be righteous worship”?
What is “formal” and “informal worship”? I know when the priest offered up a sacrifice on the alter at the temple that was very formal worship, so we are that priest today, we are that temple, we are that sacrifice and we carry the alter around with us all the time, so when are we not in “formal worship”?
If I am formally “worshipping” God all the time, by doing good stuff He commanded, then if I care for my child by playing an instrument and singing a lullaby can I not offer that up as worship to God?