CofC adds instrumental worships and deems it right???

[aggie03]

Cremi,

Others have dealt with some other aspects of your post, so I won't interrupt the conversation you all are having over that. However, I will answer your question that I think was directed to me.

Why?

The Bible says to, that's why.

There are several passage that clearly discuss how a Christian ought to handle their liberty when it comes to other Christians. Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 10, for example, deal with certain ways that Christians must act with regard to the liberty they have in Christ Jesus. As an example of what I mean, 1 Corinthians 10.24 says to seek the good of our neighbors.

Paul is not speaking to charity in this instance, but to the conscience of our neighbors toward God. If someone thinks that something is sinful, don't do it with them or where they might see you.

How does this apply to the current situation? You seem to believe that you have the liberty to play instruments during "corporate worship". If you are going to exhibit the love that Jesus showed to us, and the love that Paul talks about in the passages mentioned earlier, I see no alternative than for you to lay down your instrument so as to keep from offending your neighbor.

Have we come so far away from love that we are willing to divide over something so trivial as instrumental accompaniment? If there are Christians who believe that we can't use instruments in corporate worship, then for the sake of their conscience, it shouldn't be done. If there are Christians that believe we cannot use wine in the Lord's Supper, then we should just use grape juice.

All of the commands that God has given to us, all of the practices of the New Testament church, can be carried out in such a way that no one's conscience will be offended. The problem is that we are often too proud to lay our liberty aside. We are too American. Too haughty. Too puffed up. Too self-loving. Too self-serving. I am speaking about all of us when I say these things.

I know there are things that I have done in the past that offended the conscience of others. For the life of me, I can't understand why they don't see things that way that I do. My initial reaction, a few times, was to become slightly perturbed and indignant. That is not a godly attitude. Eventually, I repented of that attitude and put away what was causing difficulty for my brothers and sisters in Christ. I am not perfect, nor am I able to act exactly as Christ would in every situation, but I wanted you to know that I am not asking you to do something extraordinary or something with which I have no personal experience.

It is a hard thing to love others more than ourselves, but that is exactly what Jesus demands of us if we are going to be called children of God: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God" (Matthew 5.9).

I hope that I don't offend you, but I believe this to be the plain teaching of the Scriptures. You ought to lay down your instruments for the sake of your brethren, not because of some legal requirement that you don't understand or believe, but because you love them as God loves you.

 

[cremi]

I hope that I don't offend you, but I believe this to be the plain teaching of the Scriptures. You ought to lay down your instruments for the sake of your brethren, not because of some legal requirement that you don't understand or believe, but because you love them as God loves you.

I'm not offended at all aggie. It's not my offense to be taken. I appreciate what you have said. I just don't happen to agree. I read and interpret the scriptures very differently on this topic. I know and understand that it is a big sticking point for you, as I once believed as you do now.

btw...I wanted to say I have appreciated your tone and peackmaking attempts in some recent threads. It has been noticed and appreciated.

Blessings to you
Cremi

 

[bling]

Originally Posted by aggie03 http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=44180535#post44180535
I hope that I don't offend you, but I believe this to be the plain teaching of the Scriptures. You ought to lay down your instruments for the sake of your brethren, not because of some legal requirement that you don't understand or believe, but because you love them as God loves you.

I have asked this question of others so maybe you can help. If an individual offers up to God his abstaining from the use of musical instruments in “worship” is that vain worship if he feels God has instructed them not to use instruments?

Is the problem really with our understanding of “worship”?
Is there such a thing as formal and informal worship for the Christian?

 

[JDIBe]

I have asked this question of others so maybe you can help. If an individual offers up to God his abstaining from the use of musical instruments in “worship” is that vain worship if he feels God has instructed them not to use instruments?

Is the problem really with our understanding of “worship”?
Is there such a thing as formal and informal worship for the Christian?

This doesn't make sense.
If an individual believes God does not want instruments used and does not use them he is simply doing what he believes God wants. That is not "vain".

The flip side to your analogy is that a person who does what he knows God does NOT want is the only one "truly" worshipping, which is obviously false.

I don't think this is the question you want to ask. Rephrase, and try again.

To answer your second question, I do believe there is a difference between "personal" worship and "corporate" worship.

 

[bling]

This doesn't make sense.
If an individual believes God does not want instruments used and does not use them he is simply doing what he believes God wants. That is not "vain".

The flip side to your analogy is that a person who does what he knows God does NOT want is the only one "truly" worshipping, which is obviously false.

I don't think this is the question you want to ask. Rephrase, and try again.

To answer your second question, I do believe there is a difference between "personal" worship and "corporate" worship.

Can two people be enough for “corporate worship”?
Can and should we be worshipping all the time?
If you are the only baptized believer in a group of 10 people is that “personal worship”?

 

[JDIBe]

Can two people be enough for “corporate worship”?
Can and should we be worshipping all the time?
If you are the only baptized believer in a group of 10 people is that “personal worship”?

1. Can be.....

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

2. Some translator translates one word different and people build a whole theology around it......

Rom. 12:1

KJV
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
ALT
1 Therefore, I call on [or, plead with] you*, brothers [and sisters], through the compassions of God, to present your* bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God [which is] your* intelligent, sacred service.
YLT
1 I call upon you, therefore, brethren, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies a sacrifice--living, sanctified, acceptable to God--your intelligent service;
ASV
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.
NIV
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.

Is the act of "going to the bathroom" considered an act of worship? If so, please explain.....

Unfortunately, some people have taken this Scripture and twisted it from "our lives should be a continual service to God" to "every act we do IS a continual worship to God". While I appreciate the sentiment, what some attempt to do is perfectly equate on every level what we do in daily life with what we do in corporate worship.
There are things we do in corporate worship that are APPROPIATE for corporate worship and things we do personally that are APPROPIATE for personal times.

3. Could be. If the group is doing something and you are mentally somewhere else. I am however a firm believer in the philosophy that "people count" whether they are baptized or not. While we try to do our best not to offend, Generally speaking, it is best not to do things with non-Christians we wouldn't do with Christians. Consistancy shows people that you really take God in your life seriously.

 

[bling]

JDIBe ask:
Is the act of "going to the bathroom" considered an act of worship? If so, please explain.....

Is the Spirit not going with you when you go to the rest room? Some of my greatest ideas and prays have taken place while in the bathroom. That which you are continuingly sacrificing on the alter (cross you are carrying) does it hope off the alter, when you go to the bathroom?
Could you explain to me what you think the “living sacrifice of your body” is talking about and why that would stop at the restroom door?

JDIBe ask:
Unfortunately, some people have taken this Scripture and twisted it from "our lives should be a continual service to God" to "every act we do IS a continual worship to God". While I appreciate the sentiment, what some attempt to do is perfectly equate on every level what we do in daily life with what we do in corporate worship.
There are things we do in corporate worship that are APPROPIATE for corporate worship and things we do personally that are APPROPIATE for personal times.

Do correct physical (outward) acts mean “righteous worship” has taken place?
If inwardly you are correctly offering your self up as a living sacrifice, does righteous worship take place?
“I appreciate the sentiment,” does that mean you do not feel we should continuously offer up our living sacrifice?
If “corporate worship” begins with two or more, then my wife and I are involved in “corporate worship” when we get together, which for us is always in obedience to God’s commands and offer them up to God as worship.

JDIBe ask:
3. Could be. If the group is doing something and you are mentally somewhere else. I am however a firm believer in the philosophy that "people count" whether they are baptized or not. While we try to do our best not to offend, Generally speaking, it is best not to do things with non-Christians we wouldn't do with Christians. Consistancy shows people that you really take God in your life seriously.

Is it inconsistent to say, “it is alright for a husband and wife team to play instruments and sing to their kids (totally in obedience to God’s commands) and yet not right if they tell the kids they are worshipping God together, while they are playing?”

 

[aggie03]

There have been several interesting posts on worship. I would recommend that you guys move that into a different thread in order to keep the focus being moved in this one.

It's a great discussion and deserves it's own thread!

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by - DRA -

1 Corinthians 14 is a whole chapter that deals with "formal worship" (i.e., the assembling of the saints). Acts 20:7 is a single passage that discusses what might also be considered as "formal worship." As for informal worship (i.e., everyday life service to God), I tend to think of passages such as Romans 12:1 and Hebrews 13:15-16.

I'm not convinced that "Rock a Bye Baby" while strumming on a guitar to calm or entertain a child is under consideration in Ephesians 5:19. I suggest you just keep on doing that. And, yes, calming and nurturing a child is a part of doing God's will. No problems there.

I do not know if God would make the distinction you are making concerning worship. There are acts of obedience we do as a group and things we do alone, with non believers or in small groups.
Are you saying, you do not feel it is a sin to offer up to God as worship the playing of a guitar under some circumstances?

Do you know people that offer up to God their abstaining from the use of musical instruments in “formal worship”? If the abstaining from the use of an instrument during “formal worship” is the result of a man made directive would that then be “vain worship”?

In the KJV, the Koine Greek word "proskeneo" is translated 60x as "worship" - every time it appears in the N.T. It is defined as: to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
* to the Jewish high priests
* to God
* to Christ
* to heavenly beings
* to demons
In Matthew 2:2, the wise men came to "worship" Jesus. On a similar note, Herod said he also wanted to worship Him in verse 8 (but his true desire was to kill Jesus). Obviously, neither one of those occasions involved an assembly of God's people coming together to worship Him as we find in Acts 20:7 or 1 Corinthians chapter 14. That was my point.

I am not overly concerned that you take offense at my choice of words. If you have another or better way of wording it, then please share it with us.

I don't believe Ephesians 5:19 is addressing the singing of lullabies to infants in that verse.

--------------------------

Question: "Do you know people that offer up to God their abstaining from the use of musical instruments in “formal worship"?

Response: No, I know people who lift up their voices to God by singing/speaking psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs as He commanded in Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, and James 5:13.

---------------------------

Question: "If the abstaining from the use of an instrument during “formal worship” is the result of a man made directive would that then be 'vain worship' "?

Response: It is not acceptable to make up rules on God's behalf. See 1 Timothy 4:1-3. Such behavior is an indicator of those who have departed from the faith. The faithful do not need to add to God's word. Their faith prompts them to reverence what God's word says - without adding to it - and, without taking from it.

 

[aggie03]

I started another thread so we could hash out the worship questions there. I think it will be a good discussion

http://christianforums.com/t6968432-a-worship-discussion.html

 

[JDIBe]

[F

[/FONT]
[F
[F the Spirit not going with you when you go to the rest room? Some of my greatest ideas and prays have taken place while in the bathroom. That which you are continuingly sacrificing on the alter (cross you are carrying) does it hope off the alter, when you go to the bathroom?[/FONT]
[F you explain to me what you think the “living sacrifice of your body” is talking about and why that would stop at the restroom door?[/FONT]

Yes the Spirit is continually with me. No, the act of "going to the bathroom" is not worship. (I can see it now: "Going to the bathroom for the glory of God.....") There are things that one can do during that time that certainly be considered worship, but when an atheist goes to the bathroom, I don't consider it worship. If your assertion were true, that "all things are worship", then I guess he would be worshiping God the same as you and I right? In any event, even if I conceeded this point to you, it certainly reinforces my argument that some things are best done "privately" and some things "corporately".....

As far as "a living sacrifice" goes, I look at it like being married. Am I continually married? Yes. Is every act I do such as opening a door, a "reaffirmation" of my marriage? No. Do I behave myself in a manner consistent with my obligation and love toward my wife? Yes. I make choices every day consistant with that promise. But opening a door is not one of them.

Let me put it to you another way.....

(NIV) I Thess. 5:17
17 pray continually;

Here is a Scripture from the same translation that translates "service", "worship". I would note the word "continually" is not in Rom. 12:1, but it certainly is here. What does I Thess. 5:17 mean? Is it the same as your interpretation of Rom 12:1?

[F appreciate the sentiment,” does that mean you do not feel we should continuously offer up our living sacrifice? [/FONT]

What "I appreciate the sentiment" means is that I appreciate the idea that we should be continually thankful for what God has given us, continually in remembrance that we are children of God, and our actions reflect on Him. We should also be continually in SERVICE to Him as well. (For some reason that word has fallen out of favor...)

I appreciate that some have tried to elevate our behavior during the "mundane" aspects of life.
However, there are others who are not "lifting up" but "dragging down", using this concept to drag what we do during our corporate worship down to the "mundane", so there is no difference. This in my opinion is.......well......."most unfortunate".

 

[- DRA -]

I have asked this question of others so maybe you can help. If an individual offers up to God his abstaining from the use of musical instruments in “worship” is that vain worship if he feels God has instructed them not to use instruments?

Is the problem really with our understanding of “worship”?
Is there such a thing as formal and informal worship for the Christian?

I am the one that used the terms "formal" versus "informal" worship, therefore I am the best one to comment on those words. I find there is a broad sense of the word "worship" is used as opposed with the worship offered up to God when Christians assemble. And, yes, I think there is a difference between the two ideas. Take Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 11:17-34 concerning the Lord's Supper, which is eaten in what I call the "formal," and some have called "corporate" worship of the church - referring to that which is done in the assembly. The Lord's Supper is authorized when the church assembles ... being something Christians in a local church should do together (thus, the basis for the command to "tarry" or "wait" in 1 Cor. 11:33) - not as individuals.

------------------------

Question: "If an individual offers up to God his abstaining from the use of musical instruments in “worship” is that vain worship if he feels God has instructed them not to use instruments?"

Response: Worship to God is offered up on the basis of reverence for His will (i.e., doing what He authorized). Take the Lord's Supper. Unleavened bread the fruit of the vine is authorized. Those who worship Him do what He authorized. Vain worship arises when God's will is not done, and the teachings of men are followed. As for Ephesians 5:19, I humbly suggest just doing what the passage says. That's what pleases God. It's really a simple concept.

 

[- DRA -]

Can two people be enough for “corporate worship”?
Can and should we be worshipping all the time?
If you are the only baptized believer in a group of 10 people is that “personal worship”?

I suspect the red-bolded part of your post is based on Matthew 18:20 says (NKJV), "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them." Are you sure you are understanding the verse correctly? Look at the context starting at verse 11 and continues through verse 22. Note the "two or three witnesses" of verse 16 as they seek to get a sinful brother to repent. If he refuses to repent after the church admonishes him, he is to be treated as a heathen (as an unfaithful brother) in verse 17. Now, consider the "two or three" gathered together in the name of the Lord in verse 20 in its context. Are you positive the Lord is defining corporate worship for us in the passage? I beg to differ. I suggest taking a closer look at this verse. It says "two or three," right. What if there are four or more? No Lord, right? He said, two or three - NOT four or more. Do you see the problems such an understanding could cause? However, let's consider the "two or three" of verse 20 in the context of the discussion. What about the "two or three" that that go to an erring brother in verse 16? It's a quote from Deuteronomy 19:15. Is the Lord with them? Yes, He is. That's the point. They are acting "in the Lord's name" when they come together and do what the Lord has directed them to do. Therefore, He is with them - and they are acting by His authority - which suggests His approval of their actions.

Going back up the last question you ask, based on your understanding of Matthew 18:20, is the Lord with just one person? Think about it.

 

[freespiritchurch]

There are several passage that clearly discuss how a Christian ought to handle their liberty when it comes to other Christians. Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 10, for example, deal with certain ways that Christians must act with regard to the liberty they have in Christ Jesus. As an example of what I mean, 1 Corinthians 10.24 says to seek the good of our neighbors.

Paul is not speaking to charity in this instance, but to the conscience of our neighbors toward God. If someone thinks that something is sinful, don't do it with them or where they might see you....

You ought to lay down your instruments for the sake of your brethren, not because of some legal requirement that you don't understand or believe, but because you love them as God loves you.

There's more to this issue than 1 Corinthians 10. Consider this:

But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood self-condemned; for until certain people came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But after they came, he drew back and kept himself separate for fear of the circumcision faction. And the other Jews joined him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not acting consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?"

Cephas (Peter) was acting consistently with your principle: when there were no Jews around who were offended when he ate with the Gentiles, he did it. But when his actions offended some of his brothers, he refrained from doing it. But Paul called him a hypocrite and called him out. Why? Because Peter's actions compromised the Gospel. In cases of simple preference, it is better not to endanger our brothers and sisters. But there are times when bending to the wishes of the offended party compromises our proclamation of the Gospel.

To me (and others) this is one of those times. I believe, in principle, that Christians have considerable freedom to worship. If we refuse to worship with people unless they use particular forms of worship that the Bible does not prescribe, then we are forcing our brothers and sisters to conform to our traditions. This is not acceptable.

So to me, it isn't as simple as showing love to our brothers on an incidental matter. It's a matter of principle for me to allow Christians the freedom to worship that God gave them, without binding them to a self-derived "pattern" that we manage to find between the lines of Scripture.

Alan

 

[bling]

DRA asked
I am not overly concerned that you take offense at my choice of words. If you have another or better way of wording it, then please share it with us.

The dictionary and translators do not define God’s words. We have to look at the way God uses the words in context. We need to start where we might agree and then move to more controversial ideas. The word “worship” is used a lot in scripture so we should be able to develop some understanding. I do not care about a very general definition of “worship”, but how the Holy Spirit would define “righteous worship”. It is easiest to start with “vain worship” since Christ does define it: Mark 7:
5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?" 6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[b] 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." 9</SPAN>And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'[d] and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[e] 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
Isaiah 29: 13 The Lord says:
"These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is made up only of rules taught by men. [b]
“Vain worship” appears to me to be: obeying the rules (traditions) of men to the point of setting aside the commands of God and raising the obedience to man’s rules up to God as if they were His rules.
Would righteous worship be the opposite of vain worship?
Offer up to God (inward and outward) obedience to what He wants.
You could sin without it being vain worship, but vain worship is a sin.
“Doing what God wants you to do and consciously offering it up” seem to fit the way righteous worship is described throughout scripture, but is not always described as worship.

DRA said:
I don't believe Ephesians 5:19 is addressing the singing of lullabies to infants in that verse.

I do not think Eph. 5:19 is addressing “corporate worship”. Since Eph. 5: 15</SPAN> Be very careful, then, how you live… introduces the section as being about “how you live” and there is no change to “when you come together in “corporate worship” just one another which conveys the idea of other individuals, not groups only. It does not say that is the only thing we should do when getting together and it is not the only thing we do. We shake hands, pass out song books, hand out bulletins, and if your wife and kids kiss and hug. Nor does this passage suggest that if you do not do these specific things every time when speaking to another Christian you are sinning.

 

[- DRA -]

The dictionary and translators do not define God’s words. We have to look at the way God uses the words in context. We need to start where we might agree and then move to more controversial ideas. The word “worship” is used a lot in scripture so we should be able to develop some understanding. I do not care about a very general definition of “worship”, but how the Holy Spirit would define “righteous worship”. It is easiest to start with “vain worship” since Christ does define it: Mark 7:
5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?" 6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[b] 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." 9</SPAN>And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'[d] and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[e] 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
Isaiah 29: 13 The Lord says:
"These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is made up only of rules taught by men. [b]
“Vain worship” appears to me to be: obeying the rules (traditions) of men to the point of setting aside the commands of God and raising the obedience to man’s rules up to God as if they were His rules.
Would righteous worship be the opposite of vain worship?
Offer up to God (inward and outward) obedience to what He wants.
You could sin without it being vain worship, but vain worship is a sin.
“Doing what God wants you to do and consciously offering it up” seem to fit the way righteous worship is described throughout scripture, but is not always described as worship.

Not a problem at all understanding that worship offered up to God based on the teachings of men is vain. On the other hand, worship offered up to God based on doing as He directs is acceptable, righteous worship (assuming that one is sincere i.e., not just going through the motions; characterized by a heart that loves and reverences God).

I do not think Eph. 5:19 is addressing “corporate worship”. Since Eph. 5: 15</SPAN> Be very careful, then, how you live… introduces the section as being about “how you live” and there is no change to “when you come together in “corporate worship” just one another which conveys the idea of other individuals, not groups only. It does not say that is the only thing we should do when getting together and it is not the only thing we do. We shake hands, pass out song books, hand out bulletins, and if your wife and kids kiss and hug. Nor does this passage suggest that if you do not do these specific things every time when speaking to another Christian you are sinning.

Okay, it seems you may have missed some of the previous discussions. Post # 72 on page 8 is one in particular I suggest you might want to consider. Especially note the comments on 2 Timothy 4:2. "Preach the word" is not a command given specifically for the assembly. Why not apply your reasoning to that passage and let's see where things go? For instance, does this passage apply to teaching just outside the assembly, or to both inside and outside the assembly? If not the assembly, then Timothy was at liberty to preach something other than God's word in the assembly. Wouldn't preaching something other than God's word in the assembly result in vain worship? Likewise, wouldn't singing something other than psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs in the assembly result in vain worship?

 

[bling]

DRA asked
I am not overly concerned that you take offense at my choice of words. If you have another or better way of wording it, then please share it with us.

The dictionary and translators do not define God’s words. We have to look at the way God uses the words in context. We need to start where we might agree and then move to more controversial ideas. The word “worship” is used a lot in scripture so we should be able to develop some understanding. I do not care about a very general definition of “worship”, but how the Holy Spirit would define “righteous worship”. It is easiest to start with “vain worship” since Christ does define it: Mark 7:
5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?" 6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[b] 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." 9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'[d] and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[e] 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
Isaiah 29: 13 The Lord says:
"These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is made up only of rules taught by men. [b]
“Vain worship” appears to me to be: obeying the rules (traditions) of men to the point of setting aside the commands of God and raising the obedience to man’s rules up to God as if they were His rules.
Would righteous worship be the opposite of vain worship?
Offer up to God (inward and outward) obedience to what He wants. Could this be substituted for the word “worship” every time it is used in describing righteous worship?
You could sin without it being vain worship, but vain worship is a sin.
“Doing what God wants you to do and consciously offering it up” seem to fit the way righteous worship is described throughout scripture, but is not always described as worship.

DRA said:
I don't believe Ephesians 5:19 is addressing the singing of lullabies to infants in that verse.

I do not think Eph. 5:19 is addressing “corporate worship” but I am not sure what corporate worship is. Since Eph. 5: 15 Be very careful, then, how you live… introduces the section as being about “how you live” and there is no change to “when you come together in “corporate worship” just one another which conveys the idea of other individuals, not groups only. It does not say that is the only thing we should do when getting together and it is not the only thing we do. We shake hands, pass out song books, hand out bulletins, and if your wife and kids kiss and hug. If this passage suggested that, you must greet each other every time only this way; then not to do it or do it any other way would be sinning. To the non C/C person this sounds like very weak Biblical support.

 

[bling]

JDIBe said:
Yes the Spirit is continually with me. No, the act of "going to the bathroom" is not worship. (I can see it now: "Going to the bathroom for the glory of God.....") There are things that one can do during that time that certainly be considered worship, but when an atheist goes to the bathroom, I don't consider it worship. If your assertion were true, that "all things are worship", then I guess he would be worshiping God the same as you and I right? In any event, even if I conceeded this point to you, it certainly reinforces my argument that some things are best done "privately" and some things "corporately".....

An atheist does not offer up his going to the bathroom to God as worship, the heart of the worshipper must be right for it to be worship. Isaiah 29: 13 The Lord says:
"These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
As far as using the restroom that is like breathing, when you are worshipping. It is something you do in addition to worshipping. I will say this also, if you are not worshipping while in the restroom situation you might ask the Lord to help you be placed in the situation to worship while using the rest room. I have taught Christians in the state prison system that risked life and limb for the cause of Christ, every time they went to the restroom, where the guards did not hang out. They avoid going it alone at almost any cost, but two was not enough sometimes.

JDIBe said:
As far as "a living sacrifice" goes, I look at it like being married. Am I continually married? Yes. Is every act I do such as opening a door, a "reaffirmation" of my marriage? No. Do I behave myself in a manner consistent with my obligation and love toward my wife? Yes. I make choices every day consistant with that promise. But opening a door is not one of them.

Let me put it to you another way.....

The only barrier to laying down on the alter for the Christian is pride (selfishness, wanting to be in control of our own lives), humbling oneself and submitting to the power of the indwelling Spirit places self on the alter. The biggest problem is staying there, because there is nothing holding you to the cross beyond your willing desire (staying on the cross may have been the hardest thing for Christ, since He could step down off the cross any time). What I would suggest for the “living sacrifice”: continuous deny of self (being in control, selfishness) and allowing God to be in control of your life. The Lord is not into boring stuff, so how could you ever get bored?
(NIV) I Thess. 5:17
17 pray continually;

Here is a Scripture from the same translation that translates "service", "worship". I would note the word "continually" is not in Rom. 12:1, but it certainly is here. What does I Thess. 5:17 mean? Is it the same as your interpretation of Rom 12:1?

1 Thess. 5:17 maybe more to do with the Lord’s continuous presence and making Him part of everything you do. The literal translation would say the Spirit is at your “elbow” we need to make Him part of our total communication.
As far as Rms. 12:1 would serving be something you could offer up to God in obedience to His commands and thus be righteous worship?
My ideas concerning continuously worshipping really has to do with looking at Christ’s life and the fact that Deity has made there home in true Christians (the indwelling Spirit).
When do you feel you are not on the alter or do not need to be on the alter?

JDIBe said:
I appreciate that some have tried to elevate our behavior during the "mundane" aspects of life.
However, there are others who are not "lifting up" but "dragging down", using this concept to drag what we do during our corporate worship down to the "mundane", so there is no difference. This in my opinion is.......well......."most unfortunate".

Do you think Christ had “mundane” times in His life?
Do we teach often a great deal to our children during these “mundane” times?
Was Christ teaching something to the 12 while He slept in the boat?
Christ was constantly teaching the 12 around Him. These 12 and maybe the 120 where the main objective for Christ’s three year ministry, He could have gone to the cross at any time.
I am really into raising our level of worship. To making it a Christ like life experience, 24/7. Life does not have to have the “mundane”, for those are teaching moments for the “12” that are around you. If the Holy Spirit is participating in everything you do, then how could it be “mundane” if deity is right there with you?
If boring people get bored, do mundane people do mundane things?
I do not baby sit my kids, I am parenting them and that is a wonderful privilege.
Kids, grand kids, those around you that you mentor eliminate the mundane especially if you are constantly looking for those opportunities to present Christ to them.

 

[bling]

I suspect the red-bolded part of your post is based on Matthew 18:20 says (NKJV), "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them." Are you sure you are understanding the verse correctly? Look at the context starting at verse 11 and continues through verse 22. Note the "two or three witnesses" of verse 16 as they seek to get a sinful brother to repent. If he refuses to repent after the church admonishes him, he is to be treated as a heathen (as an unfaithful brother) in verse 17. Now, consider the "two or three" gathered together in the name of the Lord in verse 20 in its context. Are you positive the Lord is defining corporate worship for us in the passage? I beg to differ. I suggest taking a closer look at this verse. It says "two or three," right. What if there are four or more? No Lord, right? He said, two or three - NOT four or more. Do you see the problems such an understanding could cause? However, let's consider the "two or three" of verse 20 in the context of the discussion. What about the "two or three" that that go to an erring brother in verse 16? It's a quote from Deuteronomy 19:15. Is the Lord with them? Yes, He is. That's the point. They are acting "in the Lord's name" when they come together and do what the Lord has directed them to do. Therefore, He is with them - and they are acting by His authority - which suggests His approval of their actions.

Going back up the last question you ask, based on your understanding of Matthew 18:20, is the Lord with just one person? Think about it.

I never said it was “corporate worship”. I think we need to understand “righteous worship” before we start dividing worship up. Yes, the indwell Spirit is with the believer if he does not drive Him away.

 

[bling]

I am the one that used the terms "formal" versus "informal" worship, therefore I am the best one to comment on those words. I find there is a broad sense of the word "worship" is used as opposed with the worship offered up to God when Christians assemble. And, yes, I think there is a difference between the two ideas. Take Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 11:17-34 concerning the Lord's Supper, which is eaten in what I call the "formal," and some have called "corporate" worship of the church - referring to that which is done in the assembly. The Lord's Supper is authorized when the church assembles ... being something Christians in a local church should do together (thus, the basis for the command to "tarry" or "wait" in 1 Cor. 11:33) - not as individuals.

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Question: "If an individual offers up to God his abstaining from the use of musical instruments in “worship” is that vain worship if he feels God has instructed them not to use instruments?"

Response: Worship to God is offered up on the basis of reverence for His will (i.e., doing what He authorized). Take the Lord's Supper. Unleavened bread the fruit of the vine is authorized. Those who worship Him do what He authorized. Vain worship arises when God's will is not done, and the teachings of men are followed. As for Ephesians 5:19, I humbly suggest just doing what the passage says. That's what pleases God. It's really a simple concept.

If there are things I and even a small group of Christians can do, that God would consider as being righteous worship and would not be sinful to done in public, then why could they not be done by larger groups and be considered righteous worship?
This is the question the non C/C is really asking.