Coeternal?

[k4c]

My goal in this thread is not to convince or change anyone's particular doctrine, but rather, to learn how we came to believe Jesus is eternal and what verses we use to support this belief.

I can see that Jesus did in fact exist prior to His birth but how far into the past did He exist?

Do we lose the Sonship of Jesus and possess the spirit of antichrist when we describe Him as being eternal with the Father?

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

The Father anointed the Son, which makes Jesus the christ. Do we deny the Father and Son with the the coeternal belief?

Is beliving someone is eternal a requriement for that person to have a divine nature?

Does Jesus' statement of Him being one with the Father grounds to call Him coeternal with the Father since Jesus Himself prays that we might become one just as He and His Father are one?

In the beginning was the word (logos). Does this word, logos, represent a living being or is it a metaphor since this same word, logos, is used all throughout the NT and it's not referring to Jesus?

Is Jesus called, the word of God, because He manifested the Father's will perfectly throughout His life?

We can see from NT Scripture that Jesus is under the authority of His Father and has always been under His Father's direction even throughout the OT. Knowing this, what form did Jesus lower Himself from in order to become man.

Was that lowering of Himself seen in the fact that He was brought forth in times past in the likeness of God and equal to God as God's authoritative messenger, (Angel of the Lord or Michael) and He lowered Himself from that position to the position of servant. Not that He lowered Himself from being the Father to the Son.

Phil 2:5-6 Who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

You're definitely bringing up food for thought but I don't know if understanding this fully is required.

It is something I will be praying for help from the Spirit on... thanx.

 

[k4c]

You're definitely bringing up food for thought but I don't know if understanding this fully is required.

It is something I will be praying for help from the Spirit on... thanx.

These are deep issues that are protected by a spirit of fear and excommunication. I question everything that comes out of papal Rome especially if it's used to bring persecution. The two most powerful influences of papal Rome is Sunday worship and the coeternal, coequal trinity God. Every denomination has either Sunday worship or the trinity or both. If both of these are of the beast then Satan has the whole world deceived.

 

[Stryder06]

Doesn't Paul say that the Godhead is eternal? And doesn't Jesus say that He is Alpha and Omega the First and the Last?

 

[k4c]

So Jesus being eternal with the Father is an inference and not hard fact which has led to disfellowship and murder?

Inference: the process of arriving at some conclusion that, though it is not logically derivable from the assumed premises, possesses some degree of probability relative to the premises.

 

[Stryder06]

So Jesus being eternal with the Father is an inference and not hard fact which has led to disfellowship and murder?

Inference: the process of arriving at some conclusion that, though it is not logically derivable from the assumed premises, possesses some degree of probability relative to the premises.

You can't blame the way a doctrine was executed on the doctrine itself. People were murdered from not joining the "church". We obviously know that the doctrine of the church isn't the problem, but the people within it that had power to do such things.

 

[k4c]

You can't blame the way a doctrine was executed on the doctrine itself. People were murdered from not joining the "church". We obviously know that the doctrine of the church isn't the problem, but the people within it that had power to do such things.

The people rejecting it were killed by the people pushing it. Daniel said this would happen through the beast power, which is also the one who devised this belief.

Now, I have no problem believing something if someone can clearly show me from Scripture and not inference.

 

[Stryder06]

The people rejecting it were killed by the people pushing it. Daniel said this would happen through the beast power, which is also the one who devised this belief.

Now, I have no problem believing something if someone can clearly show me from Scripture and not inference.

Not every doctrine held by the RCC was wrong. Again, it wasn't the doctrine that was the problem, but the people running the church.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

So Jesus being eternal with the Father is an inference and not hard fact which has led to disfellowship and murder?

Inference: the process of arriving at some conclusion that, though it is not logically derivable from the assumed premises, possesses some degree of probability relative to the premises.

Maybe I've missed something in my cursory look at the history of the CC, but I don't remember the Trinity being the crux of the persecution. The reformers were railing against the casting down of the sanctuary by the church. I'm sure there were those that stood up against the trinity doctrine but I don't think it was the major issue the church was having with the protesters.

 

[k4c]

Not every doctrine held by the RCC was wrong. Again, it wasn't the doctrine that was the problem, but the people running the church.

Well, give me something I can go on outside of inference.

 

[Stryder06]

Well, give me something I can go on outside of inference.

He's GOD. That should seal it up for you. First and the Last. Alpha and Omega.

God by nature is eternal. One cannot become God and God did not make another "god". Do you believe that the Spirit is eternal?

 

[k4c]

He's GOD. That should seal it up for you. First and the Last. Alpha and Omega.

God by nature is eternal. One cannot become God and God did not make another "god". Do you believe that the Spirit is eternal?

The title, god, by nature is not eternal for there are many gods and may lords. The Father by nature is eternal and the Son cameh after the Father, thus the title, Son.

The beginning and the end...Hmmmm sounds like a start and a finish.

Do I believe a spirit is eternal? No. Do I believe the Spirit of the Father is eternal? Yes. This same Spirit was in Christ working through Christ but does that mean Jesus is eternal?

When the Spirit of God is in us and working through us does that mean we're eternal too?

 

[Stryder06]

The title, god, by nature is not eternal for there are many gods and may lords. The Father by nature is eternal and the Son cameh after the Father, thus the title, Son.

The beginning and the end...Hmmmm sounds like a start and a finish.

Do I believe a spirit is eternal? No. Do I believe the Spirit of the Father is eternal? Yes. This same Spirit was in Christ working through Christ but does that mean Jesus is eternal?

When the Spirit of God is in us and working through us does that mean we're eternal too?

There are many "gods" due to the imagination of man. But there is only One true God. He by nature is eternal. And if Jesus says He is the first how does that sound like a beginning anymore then the Father being Eternal? Wouldn't He too be the First?

 

[OntheDL]

The word, word, is not a person, even though we try to make it a person. The word is something spoken. God spoke in the begining and things came into existance. Could He have spoken through a being in the begining to bring creation about. I believe so.

In times past God spoke to us in divers ways but in these last days that say spoken word, which was spoken to us in divers ways in times past, is now being spoke to us through His Son because God gave His Spirit to Jesus without limit to speak His word.

John 3:34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.

This means God was not speaking to us through His Son in times past, but rather, in divers ways.

Within Jesus was two wills. One was of the Father and one was of Jesus. Jesus had to resist His will in order to obey the Father's will. The Father's will is eternal but Jesus' will began at His birth.

The only way I see this fitting is if the word, word, in John 1:1 is a metaphor for Jesus and not a literal Son.

Read Hebrews 1:1-2 and then answer the questions pertaining to the underlined words.

YLT Hebrews 1:1-2 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

Who is the God in the above, is it Jesus or the Father?

Who or what are the words spoken in divers ways and through the prophets, was it Jesus, Michael or the Angel of the Lord?

Do you think maybe Michael, Angel of the Lord and the prophets were the divers ways God spoke to us in times past, which would mean that Jesus is a new way God is speaking to us in these last days?

There is something preventing us from accepting the fact that God is eternal and immortal. He spoke to His creation in many different ways in times past. Sometimes He spoke to us through man and sometimes He spoke to us through angesl and maybe there was one particular Angel that God used to speak us more than He used the other ways. Either way the word that was God and with God or originated with God was spoke to His creation through these divers ways.

Could it be that this chief messenger of God, this created angelic being who spoke for God in times past, whether it be Michael or the Angel of the Lord, is also the one who put on sinful flesh and spoke to us in the person of Jesus?

God is eternal and spoke to His creation.

Man was created and was used by God to speak His word.

Angels were created and were used by God to speak His word.

Jesus was born and was used by God to speak His word.

Could the created Angel become flesh through a miraculous birth and be used by God to speak to us? I believe so...

Remember, just because a being was with God in the beginning and God used that being to create the world does not mean that being is eternal. All the angels were present during the creation of the world and we know they were created.

The Greek in John 1 is logos. So it's not a singular 'word', but a total language/manifestation. Jesus called Himself the alpha and omega. He's the total logos.

In Genesis 1, there is a definite article 'the' before beginning. This speaks to the definite beginning of the creation.

However in John 1, in Greek, the definite article is absent. This speaks to the indefinite beginning of God.

In Hebrews 1 we see God the Father speaking to the Son in a submissive tone calling the Son, God and Lord.

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

The bible gives ample support of Christ from everlasting.

“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou belittle among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in
Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”—Micah 5:2.

And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.”—Colossians 1:17.

1 Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

And Christ claimed to be the 'I AM', the self-existing one: 'EHYEH', the name God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai.

In Isaiah 9:6 the Son was called the everlasting Father and the all mighty God. The Hebrew word for 'all mighty God' is El Shaddai.

El Shaddai meaning 'the breasted one' is used in the OT as a name of God. We saw John in his vision applying that characteristics to Jesus as 'girt by the paps'.

And the bible calls God an angel.

Acts 7
30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

So the bible calls the God on Mt Sinai an angel.

The Godhead is above our finite comprehension. We ought not go outside what the scriptures have given us or we will go down to a dangerous path.

 

[k4c]

The Greek in John 1 is logos. So it's not a singular 'word', but a total language/manifestation. Jesus called Himself the alpha and omega. He's the total logos.

In Genesis 1, there is a definite article 'the' before beginning. This speaks to the definite beginning of the creation.

However in John 1, in Greek, the definite article is absent. This speaks to the indefinite beginning of God.

In Hebrews 1 we see God the Father speaking to the Son in a submissive tone calling the Son, God and Lord.

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

The bible gives ample support of Christ from everlasting.

“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou belittle among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in
Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”—Micah 5:2.

And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.”—Colossians 1:17.

1 Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

And Christ claimed to be the 'I AM', the self-existing one: 'EHYEH', the name God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai.

In Isaiah 9:6 the Son was called the everlasting Father and the all mighty God. The Hebrew word for 'all mighty God' is El Shaddai.

El Shaddai meaning 'the breasted one' is used in the OT as a name of God. We saw John in his vision applying that characteristics to Jesus as 'girt by the paps'.

And the bible calls God an angel.

Acts 7
30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

So the bible calls the God on Mt Sinai an angel.

The Godhead is above our finite comprehension. We ought not go outside what the scriptures have given us or we will go down to a dangerous path.

Amen...