Co-sleeping with our children

[Papist]

1) They do need to develop independance and fall asleep on their own.

2) If this is the case of an infant I'd be scared I'd roll over on them. (My wife and I both tend to do that throughout the night.)

Yes, these are the two fears of cosleeping. However, it happens safely all over the world. It's kinda counter-cultural in the west, but as in so many things, the way we do things now are not necessarily the best way. Our modern culture is production- and work-centred, not person-centred, and efficiency and individual independence are often valued over interpersonal relationships.

1) They need to develop security before they can develop independence, and this is one way of maxing up the security. Some people of course may say it's over the top but actually, small children have slept with their mothers for centuries in many cultures.

2) Yes -- this was my fear but everything I've read on co-sleeping has put my mind at rest on this.

This is just one plank of 'attachment parenting', an approach to parenting that emphasises the child's emotional need for closness to the mother during the early years. It has been popularised by Dr William Sears (a Christian)
http://www.askdrsears.com/
and builds of the work of the British psychologist John Bowlby, who studied the effects of taking infants away from their mothers.

John Bowlby's work is HATED by some feminists because it goes against their ideas that the mother can be replaced by daycare assistants. However, for those women who believe that full-time motherhood is far more important than any career, it provides very important scientific justification for their instinctual decision.

On the topic -- if I were to recommend just ONE book on parenting, it would be Becoming Attached, by Robert Karen.

 

[Papist]

Papist I hope you dont think the husband shouldn't have his needs met at all tho. I understand what you mean and respect your viewpoint. What I would like to know is why should the parent be controlled by the child? If a kid doesn't like sleeping by themself I say tough, they'll get over it. I think if a child gets what they want all the time they'll be spoiled and expect to get what they want. Once and a while is ok tho I think. I also understand the feeling of needing to check on a infant every time he/she cries but you dont always need to. Theres books that talk about these things. I'm not saying your wrong in what you think tho. Also what about if a woman's needs arn't met? From the women I know generally tend to whine or complain when they dont get what they want, cant say that for all women tho just the ones I know. Any women here ok with not having their needs met all the time? Maybe I just know people with some emotional problems heh I dunno. I'm not flaming, i'm just curious as to what you think. I respect your viewpoints.

Of course not! However, the nature of parenting is sacrifice -- especially for the first three or so years. It's just the nature of the beast ...

As for the child getting what they want -- you have to decide between what they want and what they need. For the first 3 years they need security first and foremost. There have been studies done on orphanage kids that prove that. My own work in prisons and in a halfway house backs it up -- the kids who end up in serious trouble are the ones who didn't have security in infancy. The statistics are stark. Basically, if you don't get that security, that's it -- that's your life stuffed. That's not the same as giving them everything they want in a materialistic sense -- that's one sure way to end up with greedy, me, me, me kids. And we have found that our daughter doesn't want much, materially -- she can go through malls unphased by the plastic trash that loads of kids pester their parents for.

Parenting is all about balance. You balance love, affection and attention, with good boundaries and discipline which is appropriate to the age. You have to be realistic in your expectations of the child -- you can't expect a 6-month old to be quiet! You can't expect a tired, hungry 3-year old to sit quietly with you in a cafe -- it's all about knowing the limitations of each age and working within that.

I could go on for hours ... this, to me, is an infinitely fascinating topic ...

 

[Beckijhn]

Cammie - sorry I didn't reply right away - I was on the road and am at my folks house now.

I wasn't attacking you at all and I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It was the tone that you used (like there's tone on the screen LOL). You were SHOCKED like it's not something that should be done, and we who have no problem co-sleeping have a screw loose I didn't take offense at it, just pointed out that you don't have kids and forming a vehement opinion without experience doesn't have much credibility in something like this.

As for sleeping with infants. All three of my kids were in my bed for at least the first 6 months and I never rolled over on them. Nope - not once!

 

[In need of god]

Ahh now I understand more clearly Papist and can say I actually learned something. I'm going to go out on the limb here and lets say a couple has a daughter, lets say she doesn't get that "security" she needs and deserves. So if she doesn't get that she could very well end up with searching for someone later in life at lets say a early age of umm 16 and finds someone 10 years older then her. More of a father type figure but she doesn't see it as that yet because of being naive. She thinks she is getting that security and safe feelings but in turn the guy takes advantage of her. By the way no guy that much older should be going out with someone of that age, even 5 years is too much in my opinion. So it would be because of insensetivity that could cause a bad backlash of future events. I can say "yes" the needs of the child should be met for the future feelings, personality and whatnot of the child. I had to ask questions to get answers, I see your viewpoint and its a good one.

 

[Knight]

Yes, these are the two fears of cosleeping. However, it happens safely all over the world. It's kinda counter-cultural in the west, but as in so many things, the way we do things now are not necessarily the best way. Our modern culture is production- and work-centred, not person-centred, and efficiency and individual independence are often valued over interpersonal relationships.

Sorry, but this has no impact on my opinion.

1) They need to develop security before they can develop independence, and this is one way of maxing up the security. Some people of course may say it's over the top but actually, small children have slept with their mothers for centuries in many cultures.

But at some point they're going to have to be on their own. How long is this done?

2) Yes -- this was my fear but everything I've read on co-sleeping has put my mind at rest on this.

Then enlighten me. How is it that the child is in less danger than if they were in a bassinet in the same room?

This is just one plank of 'attachment parenting', an approach to parenting that emphasises the child's emotional need for closness to the mother during the early years. It has been popularised by Dr William Sears (a Christian)
http://www.askdrsears.com/
and builds of the work of the British psychologist John Bowlby, who studied the effects of taking infants away from their mothers.

I have never heard of Mr. Sears and, therefore, have no opinion on his work. I'll check out the website and get back to you.

On the topic -- if I were to recommend just ONE book on parenting, it would be Becoming Attached, by Robert Karen.

I think I'd recommend "Bringing Up Boys" by Dr. James Dobson. (www.family.org) He's got plenty of other books too. That was just the first one to come to mind.

 

[Papist]

Ahh now I understand more clearly Papist and can say I actually learned something. I'm going to go out on the limb here and lets say a couple has a daughter, lets say she doesn't get that "security" she needs and deserves. So if she doesn't get that she could very well end up with searching for someone later in life at lets say a early age of umm 16 and finds someone 10 years older then her. More of a father type figure but she doesn't see it as that yet because of being naive. She thinks she is getting that security and safe feelings but in turn the guy takes advantage of her. By the way no guy that much older should be going out with someone of that age, even 5 years is too much in my opinion. So it would be because of insensetivity that could cause a bad backlash of future events. I can say "yes" the needs of the child should be met for the future feelings, personality and whatnot of the child. I had to ask questions to get answers, I see your viewpoint and its a good one.

That's a very good example, INOG!

There are more examples I could quote: I am fortunate in knowing a man who is highly trained and experienced in supporting people struggling with alcohol and drug addictions. Most of these people, according to him, felt insecure as children. According to him, and he backs up his work with research by Bowlby and Schore (you may wish to check these out), if you try to force independence too soon, it is like squeezing a balloon: it pops out elsewhere -- often in later life as dependence on substances, sex or other things. You basically go through life craving the comfort you didn't get from your mother's presence and you seek it through self-destructive activities.

My youth-work experience tells me that the kids who are most vulnerable to promiscuous behaviour are often the insecure-feeling ones who didn't feel loved by their parents. They are looking for that love in ways that will hurt them and lead to them being used. It is often the daughter of very strict and harsh parents who will be 'wayward' and then feel intensely guilty because she knows she is doing something wrong -- a secure, loving base would have been far more effective than any amount of moral teaching.

Infants are a whole lot more senstive to the mother's presence and absence than we think. Obviously, all children are different, but by maxing out the security in those first three years, you are at least ensuring that you are doing your best for your child.

I do not believe you can 'spoil' an infant by giving it masses of focused love and attention in those early years. My view is that 'spoilt' children are the ones starved of real love but given lots of material objects as a substitute.

I can get preachy on this ... but from a Biblical perspective, if we allow God to nurture the fruits of the spirit in ourselves (Gal 5:22-23), our children will know what it is to live by the Spirit, from the minute they are born.

I would urge all Christian parents to look at the work of Bowlby, Sears and Karen. It is deeply Godly parenting, for it honours the mother-infant bond, rather than urging the severing of that bond for social reasons.

It is hard to talk about parenting issues without coming across as critical -- but that is not my purpose. If anyone would like more info on this approach to parenting, then please PM me.

 

[Papist]

I think I'd recommend "Bringing Up Boys" by Dr. James Dobson. (www.family.org) He's got plenty of other books too. That was just the first one to come to mind.

Thanks. I've looked at the website but unfortunately there's not much information on the book. I'll check it out at a book shop next time I'm in town.

 

[Papist]

Tina--nightmares and trouble falling asleep once in awhile are one thing; I totally agree with you on that! I don't think it's appropriate to sleep with your children ALL THE TIME though.

Before 3, as I've been saying, then, if they want to sleep with you, then yes, I would say they should. However, 4 is getting marginal! Hence I raised this question -- and I was assuming a fair number of parents on here would be co-sleeping!

I think 4 is getting a wee bit too old for every night but she is definitely regressing somewhat with the birth of the baby. As I said before, we both felt insecure as kids, and this is something we (a) want to get right but (b) not over-do. I think over-protecting children is dangerous too -- they need to be able to find they own way to independence, once they have that secure base.

 

[Knight]

Thanks. I've looked at the website but unfortunately there's not much information on the book. I'll check it out at a book shop next time I'm in town.

Click on "resources" and you should be able to find it from there. This is basically their bookstore.

 

[Knight]

Or you can try this:

http://www.family.org/resources/itempg.cfm?itemid=2576&sid=306&pid=0&pg=1

 

[Papist]

Or you can try this:

Thanks.

"Boys are different." Too right they are!! My boy's only 6 months so still a baby -- I am looking forward to the different challenges with him!

Odd -- as a baby, he likes jazz, whereas his sister only liked 'baby music'!

 

[Papist]

From my experience with boys, WRESTLING is important! They love it! And a good wrestle on the floor can defuse many a tricky situation. It's the mixture of playing, fighting and hugging that seems to speak to the male psyche. Like Jacob at Jabbock. Wrestling seems a lot more effective than spanking, to me. In wrestling, the adult man has to be very careful not to use his superior strength to actually harm the child, but the boy learns the limits of his own strength.

Again, this is my experience -- but it is backed up by an Aussie writer (Steve Biddulph) -- but males seem to have this Top Dog thing. They have to know who's Top Dog, and there has to be a battle to establish that.

A good wrestle combines assertion of strength without harming; instructs the boy in how a grown man handles his strength; provides physical affection and fun; establishes who is in charge.

To me, this is better than spanking, because it does not put the boy into the position of meekly receiving chastisement, but allows him to try out his strength. It puts him in his place, but also gives him a real place, rather than a zero-place.

I don't know if that makes sense?

Even with older kids, in my youth work, I have discovered that I need to have a (non-physical) battle with some teenage boys before we can respect each other. In so many cases, the battle has been the start of a very fruitful friendship.

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

Not a parent, so I don't have any sound advice to offer, but just thought I would share this humorous, albeit true, story to lighten the mood in here!

My parents had a problem with my sister crawling in bed with them in the middle of the night and were about at their wits end because nothing short of putting on a padlock and chaining her bedroom door closed while strapping her into her own bed would actually KEEP her there. She was the youngest, and since I liked to sleep sideways, upside down, backwards and any other strange position in the bed, sleeping with my 2 parents never quite cut it for me - they didn't give me enough room. This was definitely a first for them.They were so incredibly frustrated at the situation, and really had no idea how to resolve it.

Fast forward a few months. Both kids in bed, Mommy asleep on the sofa, and Daddy comes in very late after working 21 hours straight on a case (he's a police detective). He was so exhausted, he went straight to bed, waking no one. Following her nightly ritual, my sister woke up, and headed to the parent's room and into the bed...to find only Daddy, no Mommy.

The next morning, Daddy (who had left for work before anyone woke up) called Mommy (who never woke up the night before and never made it off the sofa) and asked her if my sister was okay. Confused, Mommy said...as far as I know, why? Daddy proceded to tell her that in the middle of the night, he was in a sound sleep, and apparently dreaming, when little sister made her nightly entrance. She startled him, and his first instinct was to think that someone was after him or his family. He began hitting them in the head with a pillow, more or less, throwing them into the wardrobe that was next to the bed before he woke up enough to see WHO was after him. She was fine and crawled in bed anyway and went right to sleep.

Thinking this may have finally cured her (or at least hoping it had), they sat her down and asked her what lesson she had learned in that, fully expecting her to say that she had learned that she needed to sleep in her own big girl bed. Her response? From now on, I get in on Mama's side.




By the way, little sister is now 18 and sleeps in her own bed, every night...unless Daddy is gone, in which case, she prefers the "big bed".

 

[DaveKerwin]

I think the child shoudl have her own bed. If she is against it, put her bed next to yours until she is comfortable enough to have her own room, and to have a cuddle before you leave to go to your room, or whatver.

Good luck.

 

[Papist]

That is HILARIOUS!!!!

Here's another one. I do occasional business trips to Australia sometimes (I live in Scotland). So when I get back, my body clock is, like, 11 or 13 hours out of synch, depending on the time of year. Well, I came back very early one morning once, and crashed into bed. Well, next thing I knew, I was being woken up by pounding feet and children's voices ... and blinked my eyes to see a row of toddlers staring at me ... and then, THEIR MOTHERS WALKED IN TOO! The looks on everyone's faces were hilarious! My wife had been having a 'La Leche Lunch' (a group for breastfeeding women) and hadn't told them there was a jetlagged, dishevelled daddy sleeping in the bedroom ...

 

[Papist]

I think the child shoudl have her own bed. If she is against it, put her bed next to yours until she is comfortable enough to have her own room, and to have a cuddle before you leave to go to your room, or whatver.

Good luck.

We're heading that way ... just working out which wall to knock down to make room for it LOL! I mean, 4 is beyond the age when it's a security need -- it's just a nice thing for her. The niggling doubt is whether she has to be feeling better about being a sibling first ... we don't want her resenting her brother because of this.

I guess because our emotional needs were stomped all over as children, we are erring on the side of caution. We just don't want her feeling the dreadful insecurity that we both struggled with for so long. (Praise the Lord for guiding us through those struggles!)

 

[Papist]

I think the child shoudl have her own bed. If she is against it, put her bed next to yours until she is comfortable enough to have her own room, and to have a cuddle before you leave to go to your room, or whatver.

Good luck.

PS Psalm 40 means a lot to me too.

 

[Bunker]

We have 3 boys....they grow SO fast...enjoy them when they are wee ones!!! Our boys are now 11, 10 and 6. As infants they all slept with us..We never rolled over on them!! As Toddlers they crawled into bed with us..either in the middle of the night.or heck...we'd take them to bed with us! We have a King size bed and it CAN be both a family bed AND a marriage bed. Our sex life never suffered...after all....their rooms were free..Besides....it's really ok to let sex not be as often when the kiddos come along...we have been married for 12 years...and it (sex) just keeps getting better...there is a season for everything...relax..I am wondering why you do not sleep with your wife and kids....is it a comfort issue? I think you are missing out on some major cuddle time! I also commited the big no-no of carrying my babies around all the time....they were my lil' hip huggers...and I ran to them whenever they cried...gasp.....We have 3 of the sweetest, well adjusted, happy and independent boys I know. You have to do what works for you.....And honestly....until you have your own children...you really can't know of what you speak...that's just the facts!!! I too, said what I would and would not do with my kids......cracks me up now to think of how well informed I thought I was.....

 

[Papist]

We have 3 boys....they grow SO fast...enjoy them when they are wee ones!!! Our boys are now 11, 10 and 6. As infants they all slept with us..We never rolled over on them!! As Toddlers they crawled into bed with us..either in the middle of the night.or heck...we'd take them to bed with us! We have a King size bed and it CAN be both a family bed AND a marriage bed. Our sex life never suffered...after all....their rooms were free..Besides....it's really ok to let sex not be as often when the kiddos come along...we have been married for 12 years...and it (sex) just keeps getting better...there is a season for everything...relax..I am wondering why you do not sleep with your wife and kids....is it a comfort issue? I think you are missing out on some major cuddle time! I also commited the big no-no of carrying my babies around all the time....they were my lil' hip huggers...and I ran to them whenever they cried...gasp.....We have 3 of the sweetest, well adjusted, happy and independent boys I know. You have to do what works for you.....And honestly....until you have your own children...you really can't know of what you speak...that's just the facts!!! I too, said what I would and would not do with my kids......cracks me up now to think of how well informed I thought I was.....

I agree with you 10000000% !!!!

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

We have a baby and a four-year old. My wife sleeps with the children in our king-sized futon bed. I haven't slept with them for ages there just isn't room in the bed ... and I am starting to feel somewhat lonely, and wondering when I'll get to sleep with my wife again! (In the literal sense, that is! We do manage to snatch the odd child-free moment for t'other sort of sleeping together ...) Should we try to get our older child into her own bed? Or will she eventually want to sleep on her own without our intervention?

Great thread Papist!

I've read with interest what everyone's said here and thought I'd just offer my 2 cents.

Judging from my sister's experience I'd probably suggest maybe breaking both children in slowly. My sister has a 14 year old son who use to sleep with her when he was much much younger. They came over to visit last year and I was shocked to see that as at last year, he still wanted to sleep next to his mom. My brother in law is so exasperated he told him off and my nephew ended up sleeping on the floor on my sister's side of the bed I smile because my nephew would have a cow if he knew I was telling this online I guess the concern might be if their need to sleep next to their mother may continue past the kindergarten age.

Needless to say, my 10 month old sleeps in her own room now. Up until she was 6 months she slept with me, from 6 to 10 months she was in a bassinet next to our bed. Now we've progressed to the other room and while she sleeps good, I'm still sleeping with one ear pricked up listening out for a whimper . While she slept with me, my hubby was working away but I'll admit that because he sleeps quite heavy, I would not have had her in bed with us, had he been at home. But because I wasn't sleeping anyway (I only sleep good on my stomach and I'd had a c-section - still can't sleep as I'm still nursing), I had no problems with rolling on her as I was awake most of the night.

Just my thoughts on this.....

God bless