Co-Redeemer?

[Benedicta00]

yes, lets do that, shall we?

1) no "good Jewish Man" would BELIEVE that a women gave birth to God. 2) you have no evidence to suggest that Mary and Joseph know that Jesus was God. Read the scriptures. They knew his birth was a miracle, that he was conceived of the Holy Spirit... but they were never told he WAS GOD. or, find the scripture that tells me they DID know that.

see above.

see above.

Beyond that OUR bodies are the temple of God too. That is scriptural. Should we not be having sex then? Your real problem comes from the thought that Sex is dirty, which it is most assuredly not. God created it. You calling something that God created dirty? Shameful, really.

you argument is completely invalid.

God spoke to Moses in a burning bush.. the whole Mt. is considered Holy.

And the leg of Issac was touched by God and his name was changed to Israel... the Holy Land... and down to this day, the Jews don't eat that part of an animal because of that! Because God touched...came into physical contact with his leg.

The temple where God said his "Real Presence" was at, only the tempel priests were able to enter where God said he was at. (yeah, I know all this talk about God's physical and real presence in the OT is ironic)

If they so much as had one bad thought God took them out.

Joesph was told in a dream that she convinced of the Holy Spirit so Joesph knew what was up.

Looking at the history of the Jews in the OT and their holy fear of Him, there is no way in heck Joseph would have had relations with her ...especially seeing how he was a very serious and devote Jew.

 

[Benedicta00]

...I'm not sure any Jew would have thought God would ever be born.
tulc(just a thought)

20But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost.

How did Joesph not know?

 

[Benedicta00]

Holy Ground? Now when did Mary become Holy ground? The bible clearly states that no on is Holy except God.All of us that are His have His spirit living with in us. Therefore being that we have all been born again. This still does not take away the fact that we also are Human created by God male and female. Same with Joseph and Mary. She May have carried Jesus in her womb. And during this time was kept a virgin as scripture says. After the birth of Christ Mary was as free as any one of us to enjoy her marital state. Her and Joseph beoming one flesh as scriptures tells us. There is nothing defiled in this union. Mary and Joseph were as married as any other married couple. Bringing children into this word to become Heirs of Christ. This is Jewish tradition. For God has said that children are a heritage of the Lord. This neither takes away from Mary's obedience in bearing Christ or her character.

IAA, any place where God said his Real Presence was at, ie, the burning bush, the temple, Issac's leg... where ever... was considered to be holy ground, a holy thing, or a holy place. Look at the arch of the OT covenant ...it's considered holy.

And the Jews honored and reverenced those places those things that was said to be where God's presence dwelled.

There is NO question in any one's mind what so ever... God dwelled in Mary's womb in a Real physical way. He did past through her body and thus it is and to any Jewish man, would have been considered holy territory.

So logic more then anything, tells us Joesph wouldn't have had even a thought in his head to have relations with woman who bore and birthed God's real, true and physical presence.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Yes they did know that He was God. A parent knows their child. This is just the natural relationship between parent and child. Since when do we need Scriptural prove for something natural?

Ah, something natural.... like a man and wife..... oh, nevermind.


Tell me, if Mary and Joseph knew Jesus was God, do you think they would have chastized him for the "stunt" he pulled at the temple at the ae of 12?

This is the mystery of the incarnation.

Mary contained all of God with in Her. She had heaven with in Her. She had the infinity of God with in Her.

We are given the Holy Spirit according to our limited capacity.


Peace

ah, mystery. synonymous for "we have no real good explanation, hence it's a mystery.




[/quote]

 

[Uphill Battle]

God spoke to Moses in a burning bush.. the whole Mt. is considered Holy.

And the leg of Issac was touched by God and his name was changed to Israel... the Holy Land... and down to this day, the Jews don't eat that part of an animal because of that! Because God touched...came into physical contact with his leg.

The temple where God said his "Real Presence" was at, only the tempel priests were able to enter where God said he was at. (yeah, I know all this talk about God's physical and real presence in the OT is ironic)

If they so much as had one bad thought God took them out.

Joesph was told in a dream that she convinced of the Holy Spirit so Joesph knew what was up.

Looking at the history of the Jews in the OT and their holy fear of Him, there is no way in heck Joseph would have had relations with her ...especially seeing how he was a very serious and devote Jew.

again, you don't answer how Jesus could have walked among us, touched us, healed us, if "no Jew could touch holy ground."

Jesus was our "access" to God. He being God, yet approachable, touchable. How is it that he could do that, if nobody could "set foot on holy ground?"

 

[Uphill Battle]

How did Joesph not know?

that which is conceived is of the Holy Ghost.

That does not mean that Joseph understood that Christ was God!

you are projecting your knowledge that Jesus is God, back on someone who DID NOT KNOW.

Else, I don't think that "good Jew" would have given Jesus the gears for the disappearing act at the temple.

 

[Uphill Battle]

IAA, any place where God said his Real Presence was at, ie, the burning bush, the temple, Issac's leg... where ever... was considered to be holy ground, a holy thing, or a holy place. Look at the arch of the OT covenant ...it's considered holy.

And the Jews honored and reverenced those places those things that was said to be where God's presence dwelled.

There is NO question in any one's mind what so ever... God dwelled in Mary's womb in a Real physical way. He did past through her body and thus it is and to any Jewish man, would have been considered holy territory.

So logic more then anything, tells us Joesph wouldn't have had even a thought in his head to have relations with woman who bore and birthed God's real, true and physical presence.

logic actually points very far away from what you are assuming.

 

[Benedicta00]

again, you don't answer how Jesus could have walked among us, touched us, healed us, if "no Jew could touch holy ground."

Jesus was our "access" to God. He being God, yet approachable, touchable. How is it that he could do that, if nobody could "set foot on holy ground?"

Correct me if I'm wrong but... Isn't where he walked called and considered "The Holy Land?"

Besides, your debate is with scripture not with me because doesn't scripture say that God didn't stand for uncleanliness and any Joe Blow just to enter on in into the Holy of Holies?

And didn't Moses come down off that mountain all grey haired and amazed that he even came off of the mountain after being in God's Presence?

And didn't Issac say, "Woe man, I saw the face of God and lived!"

You know the Jews still to this day won't eat meat from that part of the animal that God physically touched on Issac's leg?

Now why don't they want to eat that part of the meat? Because since God touched it, they think it's sacred and that we shouldn't be eating it.

So this is not about how Jesus was able to walk among us, that way God's plan to put aside his glory and take on our humanity so he could save us and make us all one with him.

It is the humility of God who choose to do that.

But this has nothing to do with God and the OT relationship he had with the Jews where they could not withstand to be in his presence and live to tell about it.

A Jew just would not have ever dreamed of having relations with a woman whom God indwelt and passed through.

 

[Benedicta00]

logic actually points very far away from what you are assuming.

I don't think so.. I think I'm on to something.

 

[Benedicta00]

again, you don't answer how Jesus could have walked among us, touched us, healed us, if "no Jew could touch holy ground."

Jesus was our "access" to God. He being God, yet approachable, touchable. How is it that he could do that, if nobody could "set foot on holy ground?"

because God put his glory aside.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Correct me if I'm wrong but... Isn't where he walked called and considered "The Holy Land?"

and what has that to do with it? He also walked in Samaria. Somewhere Jews though truly unholy.

Besides, your debate is with scripture not with me because doesn't scripture say that God didn't stand for uncleanliness and any Joe Blow just to enter on in into the Holy of Holies?

right.... and? Mary is NOT and was not the Holy of Holies.

And didn't Moses come down off that mountain all grey haired and amazed that he even came off of the mountain after being in God's Presence?

sure....

And didn't Issac say, "Woe man, I saw the face of God and lived!"

sure...

You know the Jews still to this day won't eat meat from that part of the animal that God physically touched on Issac's leg?

Good for them. and?

Now why don't they want to eat that part of the meat? Because since God touched it, they think it's sacred and that we shouldn't be eating it.

ok.... still waiting for relevance....

So this is not about how Jesus was able to walk among us, that way God's plan to put aside his glory and take on our humanity so he could save us and make us all one with him.

more on him putting aside his glory below...

It is the humility of God who choose to do that.

ok...

But this has nothing to do with God and the OT relationship he had with the Jews where they could not withstand to be in his presence and live to tell about it.
A Jew just would not have ever dreamed of having relations with a woman whom God indwelt and passed through.

Again, give me ANY scriptural evidence that Joseph understood Jesus to be God. Any. one.

I don't think so.. I think I'm on to something.

Sure, anything to put those damnable Sola Scripturists in there place, no?

because God put his glory aside.

So God put his Glory aside.

first, When? At conception? at birth? Either or, the womb of Mary was not the Holy of Holies, which is unapprochable. Secondly, you just through a wrench in your own "Mary as the Ark" belief, seeing as it is based on the untouchable Ark, that you would die if you touched it unlawfully.... Apparently if Jesus set aside his Glory, then this isn't the case. Thirdly, we have no reason to believe that Mary and Joseph understood that Jesus was God. None. Zero. Zilch. You have to say that they understood it to support your position, but scriptural references show that they did not know. Most prominently the 12 year old temple affair.


Add to this that the misson of Jesus encompassed more than just our salvation.... tell me, what happened at the Holy of Holies when he was crucified?
If you are talking about a logical progression of thought, your off in left field.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

try way off in left field with that whole train of thought. That has got to be the most obsurd thing I have heard.

 

[simonthezealot]

. Look at the arch of the OT covenant ...it's considered holy.

.

Yes and when the Holy spirit departed from it, Gods people stopped their veneration of it.
It was now back to a normal thing.
It essentially slid into oblivion.

Is that the same ark you are comparing to Mary?

 

[repentant]

Yes and when the Holy spirit departed from it, Gods people stopped their veneration of it.
It was now back to a normal thing.
It essentially slid into oblivion.

Is that the same ark you are comparing to Mary?

Actually the Ark "dissapeared" from the Holy of Holies.


We also need to get of the whole "sex is normal and ok in a marriage" thing, because for the 100 zillionth time, THEY WERE NOT MARRIED...


And Bene brings up the best arguement for her PV. If you all fail to see that, then I don't know what to say..

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

so God is a liar...er..sorry, the angel was when oh forget it...you are going to tell me the word wife doesn't mean wife....know that arugment well by now...still don't believe it though...God is NOT a liar.

 

[repentant]

so God is a liar...er..sorry, the angel was when oh forget it...you are going to tell me the word wife doesn't mean wife....know that arugment well by now...still don't believe it though...God is NOT a liar.

No, I am telling you that yunaika does not mean wife...

 

[IamAdopted]

No, I am telling you that yunaika does not mean wife...

The word used for Joseph to take Mary as His wife is gune. This is the original greek. Not translated from the Latin. This is the difinition fo Gune.

gune goo-nay' probably from the base of 1096; a woman; specially, a wife:--wife, woman.

 

[repentant]

The word used for Joseph to take Mary as His wife is gune. This is the original greek. Not translated from the Latin. This is the difinition fo Gune.

gune goo-nay' probably from the base of 1096; a woman; specially, a wife:--wife, woman.

Will you please stop. The word used in Matt. 1:20 and 24 is yunaika, not yuni..

Now this is in contrast to Luke 1:13, in which it talks about Zacharia and his WIFE Elizabeth, in which the word yuni is used..now why do you think that is? Maybe because they mean two DIFFERENT THINGS????

Not to mention goo-nay is not even close to how the word is pronounced..it's yeenee..


You do a little word search on the internet and think you know Greek...

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Repentant....you could be kinder ya know and maybe I would take what you say seriously. But the way you speak leaves alot to be desired.

 

[repentant]

Repentant....you could be kinder ya know and maybe I would take what you say seriously. But the way you speak leaves alot to be desired.

Well sorry about that. But it gets frustrating when people try to tell me that A) I am wrong on what the Bible says in Greek, and B) I don't know my own first language...