Co-Redeemer?

[Asinner]

h
You place all the stock in virginity, and none in the heart. some did the same with circumcision.

Good grief. Obviously, I am not a virgin . . . so the claim that I place all the stock in it, is really very silly, dontchathink? Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

The point I am trying to make is that it is more difficult to attain a pure heart outside of virginity/celibacy. The reason is obvious. Paul says that those who are not married can devote themselves entirely to God. Who was more devoted to Christ than His mother? He was both her Son, and her Saviour. She could not have been as devoted to Christ if she was also devoted to Joseph and the concerns of married life.

Love,
Christina

 

[Mobiosity]

Good grief. Obviously, I am not a virgin . . . so the claim that I place all the stock in it, is really very silly, dontchathink? Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

The point I am trying to make is that it is more difficult to attain a pure heart outside of virginity/celibacy. The reason is obvious. Paul says that those who are not married can devote themselves entirely to God. Who was more devoted to Christ than His mother? He was both her Son, and her Saviour. She could not have been as devoted to Christ if she was also devoted to Joseph and the concerns of married life.

Love,
Christina

As she became a widow, that was apparently not a problem for her.

 

[Asinner]

As she became a widow, that was apparently not a problem for her.

She did not devote herself fully to Christ only after the death of Joseph. She was devoted to God before she even carried Him in her womb.

Love,
Christina

 

[PassthePeace1]

From a Catholic POV, Mary remaining a virgin after the birth of Jesus, doesn't have anything to do with retaining purity as we think of it, it's more of respect and awe, at what took place at the Incarnation....Virginal purity would the case before Jesus was born for obvious reasons....but after, it was out of respect that her womb had contained the Son of the Most High...Emmanuel--God is with us. It had been consecrated just for this purpose. I doubt very seriously that St.Joseph being a devout and righteous man, would have even dared to defile what was the 'Ark of the New Covenant', and held the New Manna, The Word of God (Logos) and the New High Priest, within her womb.

 

[Mobiosity]

From a Catholic POV, Mary remaining a virgin after the birth of Jesus, doesn't have anything to do with retaining purity as we think of it, it's more of respect and awe, at what took place at the Incarnation....Virginal purity would the case before Jesus was born for obvious reasons....but after, it was out of respect that her womb had contained the Son of the Most High...Emmanuel--God is with us. It had been consecrated just for this purpose. I doubt very seriously that St.Joseph being a devout and righteous man, would have even dared to defile what was the 'Ark of the New Covenant', and held the New Manna, The Word of God (Logos) and the New High Priest, within her womb.

Defiled? What if God had shut her womb after Jesus' birth? So Joseph and Mary made love and there was no children from that act. A righteous act between married people. No defilement because God chose that womb to be forever more barren?

 

[PassthePeace1]

Defiled? What if God had shut her womb after Jesus' birth? So Joseph and Mary made love and there was no children from that act. A righteous act between married people. No defilement because God chose that womb to be forever more barren?

I agree that the martial act, in an ordinary marriage would not be a defilement, however I don't believe that Mary and Joseph had a marriage in the way that we understand it today. I said in an earlier post (although it might be on another thread), the betrothal in ancient Jewish marriages was a legal contract, and they were considered husband and wife...at that point. Yet at that stage it excluded sexual relations.

Peace be with you...Pam

 

[Benedicta00]

What has always surprised me is the way some folks insist on looking at all this through our culture and generation.

We need to look at the Jewish culture and generation back then. No good Jewish man in his right mind would have ever even considered for two seconds to have relations with the women who gave birth to God.

Her body would have been considered sacred ground, holy ground and I'm sorry but the Jews didn't even go into the temple where God's presence was, I hardly think any good Jew would have had relations with the woman who was mother of God.

The thought if it is ridiculous. The Jews like us, see the body as a temple. Mary takes this to the next level and no good Jew would have even thought to have relations with Mary after she gave birth to God.

 

[Benedicta00]

Genesis 32.

31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, [g] and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob's hip was touched near the tendon

And to this day, they don't even eat meat.

And you think think a good Jew would have had relations with the body that God toched?

 

[Benedicta00]

I agree that the martial act, in an ordinary marriage would not be a defilement, however I don't believe that Mary and Joseph had a marriage in the way that we understand it today. I said in an earlier post (although it might be on another thread), the betrothal in ancient Jewish marriages was a legal contract, and they were considered husband and wife...at that point. Yet at that stage it excluded sexual relations.

Peace be with you...Pam

It's not a question of defilement or not. It's a matter of reverencing what was holy ground.

No one but Moses was allowed to go to the place where Moses spoke to God on Mt. Sinai.

The Jews did not enter in on holy ground and what was holy ground was where God's presence was.

Mary's body would have considered to have been holy sacred ground.

Sex can be holy in marriage and it can also be unholy too in marriage but that is neither here nor there. Sex in marriage has ZERO to do with this.

God dwelt in Mary's body and past through the birth canal. No Jew would have dreamed of entering any place that God's presence was said to be.

God himself did not allow this.

 

[Benedicta00]

She did not devote herself fully to Christ only after the death of Joseph. She was devoted to God before she even carried Him in her womb.

Love,
Christina

I love the way every body in the universe who "got saved" or who "is saved" are considered saints and just the greatest thing since sliced bread... but not Mary, the mother of Gods' devotion and even salvation is always in question.

If you step back from this for a moment and think about that for a sec, that when it comes to Mary folks really have a hard time saying that she was a great Christian, a great example, honored by her Son, reverenced by her spouse, that she was a great example, holy and blessed, that she was the very first Christian ever, that she was the very first redeemed person ever.

Now ask yourself who is it that would desire this kind of negativity towards Mary?

There is only one who would have a problem with the Mother of God.

 

[IamAdopted]

Holy Ground? Now when did Mary become Holy ground? The bible clearly states that no on is Holy except God.All of us that are His have His spirit living with in us. Therefore being that we have all been born again. This still does not take away the fact that we also are Human created by God male and female. Same with Joseph and Mary. She May have carried Jesus in her womb. And during this time was kept a virgin as scripture says. After the birth of Christ Mary was as free as any one of us to enjoy her marital state. Her and Joseph beoming one flesh as scriptures tells us. There is nothing defiled in this union. Mary and Joseph were as married as any other married couple. Bringing children into this word to become Heirs of Christ. This is Jewish tradition. For God has said that children are a heritage of the Lord. This neither takes away from Mary's obedience in bearing Christ or her character.

 

[Uphill Battle]

What has always surprised me is the way some folks insist on looking at all this through our culture and generation.
We need to look at the Jewish culture and generation back then.

yes, lets do that, shall we?

No good Jewish man in his right mind would have ever even considered for two seconds to have relations with the women who gave birth to God.

1) no "good Jewish Man" would BELIEVE that a women gave birth to God. 2) you have no evidence to suggest that Mary and Joseph know that Jesus was God. Read the scriptures. They knew his birth was a miracle, that he was conceived of the Holy Spirit... but they were never told he WAS GOD. or, find the scripture that tells me they DID know that.

Her body would have been considered sacred ground, holy ground and I'm sorry but the Jews didn't even go into the temple where God's presence was, I hardly think any good Jew would have had relations with the woman who was mother of God.

see above.

The thought if it is ridiculous. The Jews like us, see the body as a temple. Mary takes this to the next level and no good Jew would have even thought to have relations with Mary after she gave birth to God.

see above.

Beyond that OUR bodies are the temple of God too. That is scriptural. Should we not be having sex then? Your real problem comes from the thought that Sex is dirty, which it is most assuredly not. God created it. You calling something that God created dirty? Shameful, really.

you argument is completely invalid.

 

[Uphill Battle]

It's not a question of defilement or not. It's a matter of reverencing what was holy ground.
No one but Moses was allowed to go to the place where Moses spoke to God on Mt. Sinai.
The Jews did not enter in on holy ground and what was holy ground was where God's presence was.

and?

Mary's body would have considered to have been holy sacred ground.

really. Funny there is no reference to them treating her any such way. Just plain "hey we say Mary is this, so lets assume this" argumentation.

Sex can be holy in marriage and it can also be unholy too in marriage but that is neither here nor there. Sex in marriage has ZERO to do with this.

It has everything to do with it. You believe that Mary having sex with her husband would be a defilement. That is both strange, and sad.

God dwelt in Mary's body and past through the birth canal. No Jew would have dreamed of entering any place that God's presence was said to be.

Really? The apostles followed Jesus, went where he went, Ate with him, walked with him, had physical contact with him. They "dreamed of going where God went."

I laugh heartily whenever people say "God was there, so people couldn't be" when Jesus walked among us, touched us, healed us.

God himself did not allow this.

Mere Assertion based on your dogma. you have no evidence for this whatsoever.

 

[Mobiosity]

I love the way every body in the universe who "got saved" or who "is saved" are considered saints and just the greatest thing since sliced bread... but not Mary, the mother of Gods' devotion and even salvation is always in question.

Who on this thread or even this board has questioned Mary's salvation?

If you step back from this for a moment and think about that for a sec, that when it comes to Mary folks really have a hard time saying that she was a great Christian, a great example, honored by her Son, reverenced by her spouse, that she was a great example, holy and blessed, that she was the very first Christian ever, that she was the very first redeemed person ever.

Once again

Now ask yourself who is it that would desire this kind of negativity towards Mary?

As she is dead and with God at this very moment, not even Satan would be interested in her.

There is only one who would have a problem with the Mother of God.

Ditto

 

[tulc]

Mary takes this to the next level and no good Jew would have even thought to have relations with Mary after she gave birth to God.

...I'm not sure any Jew would have thought God would ever be born.
tulc(just a thought)

 

[Uphill Battle]

...I'm not sure any Jew would have thought God would ever be born.
tulc(just a thought)

beat ya to it Tulc, see post 692.

 

[tulc]

beat ya to it Tulc, see post 692.

tulc(great minds dude, great minds!)

 

[lionroar0]

Holy Ground? Now when did Mary become Holy ground? The bible clearly states that no on is Holy except God.All of us that are His have His spirit living with in us. Therefore being that we have all been born again. This still does not take away the fact that we also are Human created by God male and female. Same with Joseph and Mary. She May have carried Jesus in her womb. And during this time was kept a virgin as scripture says. After the birth of Christ Mary was as free as any one of us to enjoy her marital state. Her and Joseph beoming one flesh as scriptures tells us. There is nothing defiled in this union. Mary and Joseph were as married as any other married couple. Bringing children into this word to become Heirs of Christ. This is Jewish tradition. For God has said that children are a heritage of the Lord. This neither takes away from Mary's obedience in bearing Christ or her character.

It's worse then hat I'm afraid. We belive that everyone is Holy not just God. Some more them others according to their capacity for grace.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

1) no "good Jewish Man" would BELIEVE that a women gave birth to God. 2) you have no evidence to suggest that Mary and Joseph know that Jesus was God. Read the scriptures. They knew his birth was a miracle, that he was conceived of the Holy Spirit... but they were never told he WAS GOD. or, find the scripture that tells me they DID know that.

Yes they did know that He was God. A parent knows their child. This is just the natural relationship between parent and child. Since when do we need Scriptural prove for something natural?

Beyond that OUR bodies are the temple of God too. That is scriptural. Should we not be having sex then? Your real problem comes from the thought that Sex is dirty, which it is most assuredly not. God created it. You calling something that God created dirty? Shameful, really.

This is the mystery of the incarnation.

Mary contained all of God with in Her. She had heaven with in Her. She had the infinity of God with in Her.

We are given the Holy Spirit according to our limited capacity.


Peace

 

[PassthePeace1]

It's not a question of defilement or not. It's a matter of reverencing what was holy ground.

No one but Moses was allowed to go to the place where Moses spoke to God on Mt. Sinai.

The Jews did not enter in on holy ground and what was holy ground was where God's presence was.

Mary's body would have considered to have been holy sacred ground.

Sex can be holy in marriage and it can also be unholy too in marriage but that is neither here nor there. Sex in marriage has ZERO to do with this.

God dwelt in Mary's body and past through the birth canal. No Jew would have dreamed of entering any place that God's presence was said to be.

God himself did not allow this.

I know that was basically my point, in post 684...see below.

From a Catholic POV, Mary remaining a virgin after the birth of Jesus, doesn't have anything to do with retaining purity as we think of it, it's more of respect and awe, at what took place at the Incarnation....Virginal purity would the case before Jesus was born for obvious reasons....but after, it was out of respect that her womb had contained the Son of the Most High...Emmanuel--God is with us. It had been consecrated just for this purpose. I doubt very seriously that St.Joseph being a devout and righteous man, would have even dared to defile what was the 'Ark of the New Covenant', and held the New Manna, The Word of God (Logos) and the New High Priest, within her womb.