Co-Redeemer?

[tulc]

Being betrothed and being married were held to the same standards, I believe. The purpose was to fool satan, because he was looking for a virgin and Mary's betrothment to Joseph, averted his search elsewhere.

...you don't think the visiting angels (not to mention the huge choir of angels singing His praises), or the visiting sheperds and wise men weren't kind of a tip-off?
tulc(heck I like to think even I would have noticed THAT!)

 

[Asinner]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf211.ii.v.ii.i.html

From:

How great blessedness, among heavenly gifts, belongs to holy virginity, besides the testimonies of the Scriptures, we learn also from the practice of the Church, by which we are taught that a peculiar merit belongs to those who have devoted themselves to it by special consecration. For while the whole multitude of those that believe receive equal gifts of grace, and all rejoice in the same blessings of the sacraments, those who are virgins possess something above the rest, since, out of the holy and unstained company of the Church, they are chosen by the Holy Spirit, and are presented by the bishop162162 “per summum sacerdotem.” at the altar of God, as if being more holy and pure sacrifices, on account of the merits of their voluntary dedication. This is truly a sacrifice worthy of God, inasmuch as it is the offering of so precious a being, and none will please him more than the sacrifice of his own image. For I think that the Apostle especially referred to a sacrifice of this kind, when he said, “Now, I beseech you, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable163163 Rom. xii. 1. to God.” Virginity, therefore, possesses both that which others have, and that which others have not; while it obtains both common and special grace, and rejoices (so to speak) in its own peculiar privilege of consecration. For ecclesiastical authority permits us to style virgins also the brides of Christ; while, after the manner of brides, it veils those whom it consecrates to the Lord, openly exhibiting those as very especially about to possess spiritual marriage who have fled away from carnal fellowship. And those are worthily united, after a spiritual manner, to God, in accordance with the analogy of marriage, who, from love to him, have set at nought human alliances. In their case, that saying of the apostle finds its fullest possible fulfillment, “He who is joined to the Lord,164164 1 Cor. vi. 17. is one spirit.”

 

[Asinner]

...you don't think the visiting angels (not to mention the huge choir of angels singing His praises), or the visiting sheperds and wise men weren't kind of a tip-off?
tulc(heck I like to think even I would have noticed THAT!)

Yes. Satan found out. However, who the Virgin would be, her conception of the Christ, and her pregnancy were kept hidden.

Love,
Christina

 

[Asinner]

Heliodorus, Flourished about 440. presbyter of Antioch, published an excellent volume gathered from Holy Scriptures On Virginity.
(I will try and find this writing. What you see below is not from this volume)

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf203.v.iv.xxx.html?highlight=virginity#highlight




Helvidius, Fourth century. a disciple of Auxentius and imitator of Symmachus, wrote, indeed, with zeal for religion but not according to knowledge, a book, polished neither in language nor in reasoning, a work in which he so attempted to twist the meaning of the Holy Scriptures to his own perversity, as to venture to assert on their testimony that Joseph and Mary, after the nativity of our Lord, had children who were called brothers of the Lord. In reply to his perverseness Jerome, published a book against him, well filled with scripture proofs.

 

[Asinner]

I am having difficulty with the other page I was going to find for you. His letter comes out all jumbled and inscripted. Anyway, there is tons more, but I'll stop here.

Love,
Christina

 

[Asinner]

Those are interesting Christina.
WOW that was fast!

It seems like they're implying that marriage
wasn't the intention of God to begin
with, but yet He did create our bodies
right from the beginning for reproduction.
So this is all kind of odd isnt it?

See what the Bible said:

Genesis 1:26-28
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,
after our likeness:
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air,
and over the cattle,
and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them,
and God said unto them,
Be fruitful,
and multiply,
and replenish the earth,
and subdue it:

So according to the Bible, it was indeed
Gods first desire, not something after
the fall.
Or did I read that wrong?

sunlover

God made provision, as the ECF quote says. Holy Scripture says that Adam knew Eve and she conceived after the Fall (Gen 4:1). God is omniscient. He knew they would fall, so in His great wisdom, He made preparation.

Love,
Christina

 

[sunlover1]

Those are interesting Christina.
WOW that was fast!

It seems like they're implying that marriage
wasn't the intention of God to begin
with, but yet He did create our bodies
right from the beginning for reproduction.
So this is all kind of odd isnt it?

See what the Bible said:

Genesis 1:26-28
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,
after our likeness:
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air,
and over the cattle,
and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them,
and God said unto them,
Be fruitful,
and multiply,
and replenish the earth,
and subdue it:

So according to the Bible, it was indeed
Gods first desire, not something after
the fall.
Or did I read that wrong?

sunlover

These above are taken from the Bible.
don't you think that God actually
intended for all men to reproduce,
right from the beginning?

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf211.ii.v.ii.i.html

From:

How great blessedness, among heavenly gifts, belongs to holy virginity, besides the testimonies of the Scriptures, we learn also from the practice of the Church, by which we are taught that a peculiar merit belongs to those who have devoted themselves to it by special consecration. For while the whole multitude of those that believe receive equal gifts of grace, and all rejoice in the same blessings of the sacraments, those who are virgins possess something above the rest, since, out of the holy and unstained company of the Church, they are chosen by the Holy Spirit, and are presented by the bishop162162 “per summum sacerdotem.” at the altar of God, as if being more holy and pure sacrifices, on account of the merits of their voluntary dedication. This is truly a sacrifice worthy of God, inasmuch as it is the offering of so precious a being, and none will please him more than the sacrifice of his own image. For I think that the Apostle especially referred to a sacrifice of this kind, when he said, “Now, I beseech you, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable163163 Rom. xii. 1. to God.” Virginity, therefore, possesses both that which others have, and that which others have not; while it obtains both common and special grace, and rejoices (so to speak) in its own peculiar privilege of consecration. For ecclesiastical authority permits us to style virgins also the brides of Christ; while, after the manner of brides, it veils those whom it consecrates to the Lord, openly exhibiting those as very especially about to possess spiritual marriage who have fled away from carnal fellowship. And those are worthily united, after a spiritual manner, to God, in accordance with the analogy of marriage, who, from love to him, have set at nought human alliances. In their case, that saying of the apostle finds its fullest possible fulfillment, “He who is joined to the Lord,164164 1 Cor. vi. 17. is one spirit.”

These are some men who had their
views, but what do you say about the
passage above?

I think in God's eyes it is desirable
for men to reproduce.
I think in those men's eyes, it's not.

sunlover

 

[Asinner]

These above are taken from the Bible.
don't you think that God actually
intended for all men to reproduce,
right from the beginning?


These are some men who had their
views, but what do you say about the
passage above?

I think in God's eyes it is desirable
for men to reproduce.
I think in those men's eyes, it's not.

sunlover

What then is Paul's perspective on this? Do you believe he too felt it was not desirable for men to reproduce? The answer of course, is no. Virginity/celibacy is not for everyone. The ECF's know this and Paul knows this. That leaves the rest of us passionate married people to reproduce.

Love,
Christina

 

[Mobiosity]

Sulpitius Severus

c. 360; d. about 420-25
Extra Biblical

St. John Chrysostom

c. 347
Extra biblical

[SIZE=-1]

St John Damascene

c. 676 d. 749[/SIZE]
Extra biblical

Gregory of Nyssa

c.335 d. after 394
Extra biblical

All well after Christ. All well intentioned and wrong.

 

[sunlover1]

God made provision, as the ECF quote says. Holy Scripture says that Adam knew Eve and she conceived after the Fall (Gen 4:1). God is omniscient. He knew they would fall, so in His great wisdom, He made preparation.

Love,
Christina

Adam knew eve after the fall but God
commanded them to multiply
before the fall.

Not because he knew they would fall, but
because He wants a Holy race of
people.
That's His purpose for marriage stated
in the Book of Malachi.
So it has nothing to do with the fall.


Malachi 2:15
15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed.

Have you ever considered that these nice
ECF men, could be wrong sometimes?
Not always but sometimes.
Or do you believe they're correct and
the Bible is wrong?

Because this doesn't seem to agree with
the Bible.

thanks,
sunlover

 

[Asinner]

Adam knew eve after the fall but God
commanded them to multiply
before the fall.

Not because he knew they would fall, but
because He wants a Holy race of
people.
That's His purpose for marriage stated
in the Book of Malachi.
So it has nothing to do with the fall.


Malachi 2:15
15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed.

Have you ever considered that these nice
ECF men, could be wrong sometimes?
Not always but sometimes.
Or do you believe they're correct and
the Bible is wrong?

Because this doesn't seem to agree with
the Bible.

thanks,
sunlover

Sunlover,

There would have been no need of a Godly seed if Adam and Eve would not have fallen. Life would have remained pure.


Love,
Christina

 

[Asinner]

c. 360; d. about 420-25
Extra Biblical

c. 347
Extra biblical

[SIZE=-1]c. 676 d. 749[/SIZE]
Extra biblical

c.335 d. after 394
Extra biblical

All well after Christ. All well intentioned and wrong.

They are not found in the Holy Scriptures, yet they do not contradict them. Truth manifests itself outside of the Holy Scriptures. Like in people, for example. Some of these people knew how to write, dontchaknow.

Love,
Christina

 

[Mobiosity]

They are not found in the Holy Scriptures, yet they do not contradict them. Truth manifests itself outside of the Holy Scriptures. Like in people, for example. Some of these people knew how to write, dontchaknow.

Love,
Christina

They hold virginity to a level that was not intentioned by God, obviously He would have made that a major tenet of belief. He would obviously made no sex a commandment instead of sex only between spouses.

 

[Asinner]

They hold virginity to a level that was not intentioned by God, obviously He would have made that a major tenet of belief. He would obviously made no sex a commandment instead of sex only between spouses.

You forget Paul. Did he hold virginity at a level that was not intentioned by God?

Love,
Christina

 

[Benedicta00]

Protoevangelium of James

8. And her parents went down marvelling, and praising the Lord God, because the child had not turned back. And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there, and she received food from the hand of an angel. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of the priests, saying: Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, test perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord? And they said to the high priest: Thou standest by the altar of the Lord; go in, and pray concerning her; and whatever the Lord shall manifest unto thee, that also will we do. And the high priest went in, taking the robe with the twelve bells into the holy of holies; and he prayed concerning her. And behold an angel of the Lord stood by him, saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go out and assemble the widowers of the people, and let them bring each his rod; and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went out through all the circuit of Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all ran.

9. And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph's head. And the priest said to Joseph, Thou hast been chosen by lot to take into thy keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord thy God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in thy house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received thee from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave thee in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to thee. The Lord will protect thee.

We can all play guessing games and have our fun speculating but I will go with what the apolstle James was believed to have written

 

[sunlover1]

Sunlover,

There would have been no need of a Godly seed if Adam and Eve would not have fallen. Life would have remained pure.


Love,
Christina

Before they fell, He told them to
go forth and multiply, so He obviously
wanted a godly seed even before
they fell.

He did desire this from the beginning.
It's written right there in Genesis.

I don't understand why this is a bother
to you.

God created man, then He created woman
for the man.

It's what GOD did, not what Luther or someone
said.

sunlover

 

[tulc]

We can all play guessing games and have our fun speculating but I will go with what the apolstle James was believed to have written

uhmmm didn't this exist when the Bible was compiled? why wasn't it included of it was considered inspired? I'm with Mobiosity on this!
tulc(sending reps sis!)

 

[simonthezealot]

Protoevangelium of James



We can all play guessing games and have our fun speculating but I will go with what the apolstle James was believed to have written

He wasn't believed to have written this unless he lived to be 135 years old, no scholars think or believe this, the writer of this was not familiar with Jewish customs of the day and James the brother of our Lord would've been.

 

[Asinner]

Before they fell, He told them to
go forth and multiply, so He obviously
wanted a godly seed even before
they fell.

He did desire this from the beginning.
It's written right there in Genesis.

I don't understand why this is a bother
to you.

God created man, then He created woman
for the man.

It's what GOD did, not what Luther or someone
said.

sunlover

Him making provision is not the same as Adam knowing Eve and her conceiving. There was no marital relation prior to the fall.

Love,
Christina

 

[Asinner]

uhmmm didn't this exist when the Bible was compiled? why wasn't it included of it was considered inspired? I'm with Mobiosity on this!
tulc(sending reps sis!)

So, then anything not included in Holy Scripture is considered spurious? What this means is that the only people who had the Holy Spirit and were capable of discerning God's will lived before the 1st century?

The POV does not contradict what is written in the Holy Scriptures. It too, is a part of Holy Tradition, just like the Holy Scriptures are, the writings of other ECF's, the Ecumenical Councils, the Liturgy, the Hymns of the Church. All tell ONE story. The story is about man's reunification to his Creator through Jesus Christ.

Love,
Christina