Co-Redeemer?

[Asinner]

A married woman who has sex with her husband and only with her husband is pure.

Herein lies the problem. Do you not view virginity as the higher calling? Do you see a distinction physically, between a virgin and a non-virgin?

Love,
Christina

 

[Mobiosity]

Herein lies the problem. Do you not view virginity as the higher calling? Do you see a distinction physically, between a virgin and a non-virgin?

Love,
Christina

No, why would virginity be a higher calling? The Lord said to be fruitful and multiply, why would He then say not to?

 

[Uphill Battle]

When you start to actually ponder this, it makes no sense really.

Mary was with child before they were married officially in Judaism. In any case, those around them knew.

and again I ask... did God endorse deception?

He did figure it out, certainly!

When? If it was hidden, to prevent him knowing, by God's choice, he'd NEVER know.

With all due respect to you, there is more to this than just what scripture says.

right... except what "more" there is seemingly contradicts what IS in scripture.

No evidence that is found in the canonized book of scripture...

exactly.

Herein lies the problem. Do you not view virginity as the higher calling? Do you see a distinction physically, between a virgin and a non-virgin?

Love,
Christina

What has that to do with it?

(and last time I checked, virginity as a higher calling doesn't typically mean those who are married.)

 

[Asinner]

No, why would virginity be a higher calling? The Lord said to be fruitful and multiply, why would He then say not to?

For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. (1Cor 7)

If they can't contain what? Their passions perhaps.

Love,
Christina

 

[Asinner]

(and last time I checked, virginity as a higher calling doesn't typically mean those who are married.)

Correct.

The relationship between Mary and Joseph was as the POV states. He was betrothed to her to care for her. They did not have a sexual relationship.

Love,
Christina

 

[Uphill Battle]

Correct.

The relationship between Mary and Joseph was as the POV states. He was betrothed to her to care for her. They did not have a sexual relationship.

Love,
Christina

except for all the biblical contradictions to that position.

 

[Asinner]

except for all the biblical contradictions to that position.

Please. Without Holy Tradition, you and your passions are left to interpret the Holy Scriptures. Your passions are steering you away from Mary's ever-virginity and towards her having a normal, sexual relationship. Will you be offended if I say, how typical? There are no biblical contradictions. You see what you want to see.

Love,
Christina

 

[Uphill Battle]

Please. Without Holy Tradition, you and your passions are left to interpret the Holy Scriptures. Your passions are steering you away from Mary's ever-virginity and towards her having a normal, sexual relationship. Will you be offended if I say, how typical? There are no biblical contradictions. You see what you want to see.

Love,
Christina

hnnn..... the same could be said the other way.

When I see scripture that says they were Married, I don't look for a reason NOT to believe it.

 

[Mobiosity]

Please. Without Holy Tradition, you and your passions are left to interpret the Holy Scriptures. Your passions are steering you away from Mary's ever-virginity and towards her having a normal, sexual relationship. Will you be offended if I say, how typical? There are no biblical contradictions. You see what you want to see.

Love,
Christina

Without tradition we are left with The Word of God as put down in The Bible. Mary was a virgin who bore a child. She was married to Joseph, the scripture you quoted: "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. (1Cor 7)" was directed at the unmarried and those who were widowed, since Mary was married and her husband was very much alive her virginity after Jesus birth cannot be taken as gospel.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

Correct.

The relationship between Mary and Joseph was as the POV states. He was betrothed to her to care for her. They did not have a sexual relationship.

Love,
Christina

One only has to understand the historical meaning of betrothal, what it actually was back then.....even those with Anglo-Saxon/Celtic backgrounds should understand this one.......Why is it that all the ancient Churches understand this, it is only recently that "new beliefs" or shall I say, newly worded Bibles have led people away from the truth...

 

[Asinner]

hnnn..... the same could be said the other way.

When I see scripture that says they were Married, I don't look for a reason NOT to believe it.

Sorry UB, it is not the same. It is not me and my bible. It used to be. My husband used to preach and teach adult bible study before we became Orthodox. One thing that made him restless, was the fact that he could make the Holy Scriptures mean whatever he wanted them to. I do not attempt to understand the Holy Scriptures outside of the Church. I read them for edification. You make your own assumptions when you claim that Mary and Joseph had relations and she had other children. Nowhere does it state that Jesus' brothers and sisters were Mary's children. When her and Joseph went looking for Christ at age 12 and found Him in the temple, there is no mention of other children. The fact that Christ gave Mary to John, is a strong argument that Mary had no other children. Her response to Gabriel is a strong argument for her vowed virginity. The OT prophesies of Mary, ect. ect. ect. So, you see, it is not obvious that Mary and Joseph had relations! Not in the least. Jesus' siblings were Joseph's children from a previous marriage as Holy Tradition says. Please be careful to continually bear false witness against the Theotokos. To do it in ignorance is one thing, but to continually insist, even after being shown the Church's teaching on this and those of the Protestant reformers, repeatedly, is waivering into territory I find spiritually dangerous. Please, Uphill Battle! Stop with this incessant slander of the Theotokos. It is scandalous at best.

Love,
Christina

 

[Asinner]

Without tradition we are left with The Word of God as put down in The Bible. Mary was a virgin who bore a child. She was married to Joseph, the scripture you quoted: "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. (1Cor 7)" was directed at the unmarried and those who were widowed, since Mary was married and her husband was very much alive her virginity after Jesus birth cannot be taken as gospel.

You did not respond to my questions.

 

[IamAdopted]

Sorry UB, it is not the same. It is not me and my bible. It used to be. My husband used to preach and teach adult bible study before we became Orthodox. One thing that made him restless, was the fact that he could make the Holy Scriptures mean whatever he wanted them to. I do not attempt to understand the Holy Scriptures outside of the Church. I read them for edification. You make your own assumptions when you claim that Mary and Joseph had relations and she had other children. Nowhere does it state that Jesus' brothers and sisters were Mary's children. When her and Joseph went looking for Christ at age 12 and found Him in the temple, there is no mention of other children. The fact that Christ gave Mary to John, is a strong argument that Mary had no other children. Her response to Gabriel is a strong argument for her vowed virginity. The OT prophesies of Mary, ect. ect. ect. So, you see, it is not obvious that Mary and Joseph had relations! Not in the least. Jesus' siblings were Joseph's children from a previous marriage as Holy Tradition says. Please be careful to continually bear false witness against the Theotokos. To do it in ignorance is one thing, but to continually insist, even after being shown the Church's teaching on this and those of the Protestant reformers, repeatedly, is waivering into territory I find spiritually dangerous. Please, Uphill Battle! Stop with this incessant slander of the Theotokos. It is scandalous at best.

Love,
Christina

How may you take scripture and make them what you want them to be? Untrue.. For the Holy spirit is the teacher of Gods word.. Taking and adding to or taking away or twisting to fit a doctrine that its origin was not from scripture is forbidden.. We are warned of this over and over by Apostle Paul in his epistles.. Giving tradition more than what the bible speaks of.. For Pauls tradition was lined up with scripture.. He either spoke or wrote and it was all the same message..

 

[Epiphanygirl]

How may you take scripture and make them what you want them to be? Untrue.. For the Holy spirit is the teacher of Gods word.. Taking and adding to or taking away or twisting to fit a doctrine that its origin was not from scripture is forbidden.. We are warned of this over and over by Apostle Paul in his epistles.. Giving tradition more than what the bible speaks of.. For Pauls tradition was lined up with scripture.. He either spoke or wrote and it was all the same message..

But alas, we see it happening daily.....people reading into scripture what they want it to mean or say......not what it has always meant or was taught.......I'll take the ancient beliefs anyday.....thank you

 

[Mobiosity]

You did not respond to my questions.

Which questions? The one asking what the unmarried can't contain that would make them good candidates for marriage? It would be their passions. But once married there is no need to contain passions.

But that's only one question, which others didn't I answer?

 

[IamAdopted]

But alas, we see it happening daily.....people reading into scripture what they want it to mean or say......not what it has always meant or was taught.......I'll take the ancient beliefs anyday.....thank you

I will take the word of God over any mans belief any day. For man is fallable and Gods word is infallable because it is breathed from My Father who has no error or deceit in Him.. For from Him all blessings flow.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

I will take the word of God over any mans belief any day. For man is fallable and Gods word is infallable because it is breathed from My Father who has no error or deceit in Him.. For from Him all blessings flow.

Me too!!! Yeah we agree!!!!!!!! So I will rely on Christ's promise that the Church is the bulwark and pillar of the Faith.....that the gates of hell will not prevail against it......Christ said it, I be lieve it!!!!!!

 

[Asinner]

Which questions? The one asking what the unmarried can't contain that would make them good candidates for marriage? It would be their passions. But once married there is no need to contain passions.

Yes. Passions were not in the Garden until Eve gave way to pride and ate of the fruit. To have sexual relations dispassionately, would be quite difficult. The Theotokos did not give into the passions as Adam and Eve did not give into the passions before the fall. I wrote you a lengthy response on this a couple of pages back . . . or maybe it was on a different thread? Anyway, the Church teaches that Mary was undefiled. She chose God over the passions. She is our very first example of a Christian. She points to Christ and shows us how to be perfect (what we are all called to be).

But that's only one question, which others didn't I answer?

I guess I only had one.

By the way, are you really 87 years old, or does that number signify something else?

Love,
Christina

 

[Mobiosity]

Sorry UB, it is not the same. It is not me and my bible. It used to be. My husband used to preach and teach adult bible study before we became Orthodox. One thing that made him restless, was the fact that he could make the Holy Scriptures mean whatever he wanted them to. I do not attempt to understand the Holy Scriptures outside of the Church. I read them for edification. You make your own assumptions when you claim that Mary and Joseph had relations and she had other children. Nowhere does it state that Jesus' brothers and sisters were Mary's children. When her and Joseph went looking for Christ at age 12 and found Him in the temple, there is no mention of other children. The fact that Christ gave Mary to John, is a strong argument that Mary had no other children. Her response to Gabriel is a strong argument for her vowed virginity. The OT prophesies of Mary, ect. ect. ect. So, you see, it is not obvious that Mary and Joseph had relations! Not in the least. Jesus' siblings were Joseph's children from a previous marriage as Holy Tradition says. Please be careful to continually bear false witness against the Theotokos. To do it in ignorance is one thing, but to continually insist, even after being shown the Church's teaching on this and those of the Protestant reformers, repeatedly, is waivering into territory I find spiritually dangerous. Please, Uphill Battle! Stop with this incessant slander of the Theotokos. It is scandalous at best.

Love,
Christina

Is the King James Version old enough for you?

1. Matthew 1:16
   And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
2. Matthew 1:18
   Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
3. Matthew 1:20
   But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Mobiosity]

Yes. Passions were not in the Garden until Eve gave way to pride and ate of the fruit. To have sexual relations dispassionately, would be quite difficult. The Theotokos did not give into the passions as Adam and Eve did not give into the passions before the fall. I wrote you a lengthy response on this a couple of pages back . . . or maybe it was on a different thread? Anyway, the Church teaches that Mary was undefiled. She chose God over the passions. She is our very first example of a Christian. She points to Christ and shows us how to be perfect (what we are all called to be).

I guess I only had one.

By the way, are you really 87 years old, or does that number signify something else?

Love,
Christina

Mary was a virgin at Jesus birth, we agree on that. What I don't understand is why you claim a married woman having sex with her husband would be defiled?