Co-Redeemer?

[repentant]

Anyway, you're saying Joseph was never married to Mary? Then who are Jesus brothers and sisters talked about in scripture?
tulc(getting curious now)

No they were never married. Jesus' brother's and sister's talked about in SCripture are (has been said numerous time) either close kin or Joseph's children.

 

[Tyndale]

No they were never married. Jesus' brother's and sister's talked about in SCripture are (has been said numerous time) either close kin or Joseph's children.

I agree that this could well be the case. Joseph could have been married before, but - Iollian, sunlover1 and Iamadopted have proved beyond doubt that Mary had extra children and did have a sexual relation with Joseph after Jesus's birth.

"I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children."

"And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

I must congratulate you ladies for conducting yourself in a very professional and christian manner on this thread. I doubt, if I could have persisted without loosing my cool.

 

[tulc]

No they were never married. Jesus' brother's and sister's talked about in SCripture are (has been said numerous time) either close kin or Joseph's children.

Ahhh! So Joseph was married before? How do you know that?
tulc(who also wonders what the big deal is)

 

[HisKid1973]

Ahhh! So Joseph was married before? How do you know that?
tulc(who also wonders what the big deal is)

Welcome Tulc to the bottom of the theology board.
It is needed because it's support to extra- biblical dogma's . pax..kim

 

[Asinner]

Ahhh! So Joseph was married before? How do you know that?
tulc(who also wonders what the big deal is)

Hi Tulc ,

Have you ever read the Protoevangelium of James?
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/infancyjames-roberts.html

Love,
Christina

 

[repentant]

I agree that this could well be the case. Joseph could have been married before, but - Iollian, sunlover1 and Iamadopted have proved beyond doubt that Mary had extra children and did have a sexual relation with Joseph after Jesus's birth.

"I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children."

They have? Hard to prove something that never happened...The quote above is not about Jesus, like I said, if you think it is, then you are calling Jesus a sinner. Read the Psalm.

"And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

No implications she had sex after or other kids. Eos ou (unitl) does not make that claim. "I will be with you even UNTIL the end of ages"-I guess Christ is no longer with us...

Why should they lose there cool? They are not having to defend the Truth that has been taught for 2000 years....

 

[repentant]

Ahhh! So Joseph was married before? How do you know that?
tulc(who also wonders what the big deal is)

Well Bible never says they were. We also have other sources..

 

[Tyndale]

They have? Hard to prove something that never happened...The quote above is not about Jesus, like I said, if you think it is, then you are calling Jesus a sinner. Read the Psalm.

Iollian posted multiple verses which said Jesus took on our sin on the cross. Read the post!

2 Cor. 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

 

[Mobiosity]

Why does it matter that Mary and Joseph had sex? They were married, they made love, just like all the other married couples in the world.

 

[sunlover1]

I must congratulate you ladies for conducting yourself in a very professional and christian manner on this thread. I doubt, if I could have persisted without loosing my cool.

TY Tyndale.
I was actually thinking just how patient
our catholic posters are with us!

To all of us:

Praying That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of our understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power...

 

[Benedicta00]

Welcome Tulc to the bottom of the theology board.
It is needed because it's support to extra- biblical dogma's . pax..kim

Extra biblical is made up, did you know that?

What Catholics and Orthodox go by is God's word which is what Tradition is, God's word.

This was his word before any of it was put down on paper.

What's on paper is that same Tradition, the part that was written down.

So when you say we use "Extra Biblical," I'm afraid you have thrown me for a loop because I don't know what that is, do you?

Can you document or prove to me what it even is?

You won't be able to, because it doesn't exist. Well, it does in false religions like Mormonism and some Christian sects like the SDA church who go by Ellen Whites writings, but Catholics and Orthodox go by what? What "Extra biblical" writings do we go by that you can cite and document?

 

[Benedicta00]

YOu've got some really bad circular reasoning there, Mary did not exist before her beginning in the womb, so to say she was saved before she existed is not logical.



...all, including Mary have fallen short of glory

...which is why God had to save Mary

...If God would not have saved her when he did,

...she would have been born in sin



YOur saying Mary existed before she was by saying this, and your also saying that Mary is not of Adam's fallen race. Mary could not have fallen short AND be created sinless, she did not exist prior to her conception. So Immaculate Conception does not work.

Mary is part of the human race like we all are...unless you think she is more then just a mere creature?

When Paul speaks of mankind that is fallen and who is born in sin, he is speaking of mankind, not ever individual on a individual level.

he is saying mankind fell from grace thus is need of a savior.

That includes Mary, unless you think she didn't need a savior?

Mary was not saved before she existed. She was predestined as we all are but she was saved the moment she was conceived in her mother's womb. Not before, and not after Christ died and rose three days later.

So Mary is not dis included in Paul's "all have sinned..." She is part of this human race and would have been a poor sinner like the rest had God not saved her from it.

 

[Asinner]

Why does it matter that Mary and Joseph had sex? They were married, they made love, just like all the other married couples in the world.

A book could probably be written on this subject, but I will try to keep it brief, and get to the heart of the matter. As Christians, our purpose is theosis, or union with God. Adam and Eve, before the fall, walked with God, and were born to become completely absorbed in the Godhead, and become like God. What was destroyed in the garden, has been restored through Jesus Christ, and humans can again attain communion with God. Before the fall, Mobiosity, life in the Garden was virginal. There was no sexual union until after the fall, when sin entered the world (Gen 4:1). Yes, God did make provision beforehand and made them male and female because He knew, through His omniscient wisdom, that the human race would dwindle away once death entered unless Adam knew his wife Eve, and she would bear children. Now, aside from after the fall and sin entering into the world, comes Mary, the first Christian. She said yes to God, whereas Eve said no. She is not simply any Christian, she is the Christian all of us strive to emulate (which is Eve before the fall). Mary attained perfection and Eve lost perfection. Mary is Eve, before the fall, when life was virginal and uncorrupt. This does not mean that the Church views marital sex as impure or unclean. It is the higher calling, and one that Paul himself, chose over marriage. When one is a virgin, they can attain perfection physically as well as spiritually. They are also able to devote themselves fully and completely to God. One way we know that Mary was a prophesed virgin, that she had devoted herself to God fully, is by her statement to Gabriel . . . how can this be, seeing I know not a man. She did not understand the implication of Gabriel's announcement of conception because she was a vowed virgin. There are also many OT prophesies of her remaining ever-virgin. She was the gate through which Christ entered and no man after, would enter in. Doesn't it make sense that Mary would remain untouched by any man? She contained the eternal God in her womb, yet lived! This is evidence of her Virtue and Grace. She is our Ark of the New Covenant. The ark in the OT was a shadow of what was to come. She is the burning bush which contained the Fire, yet was not consumed. There is much, much more. But I was trying not to write a book, so I will stop here. Mary's ever-virginity has been believed, taught, and defended by the Church for 2000 years. Even those who started the reformation, like Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, believed in her Purity. Please forgive my long explanation. I hope it makes sense.

Love,
Christina

 

[Rick Otto]

And thanks for pointin' that out about those reformers. I didn't know that.

I still don't buy it, personaly.
An' I don't completely gree with the statement or idea, that Eve "said no to God".
I mean, I agree that she said that by inmplication, but not directly as it sounds when ya put it that way. I think the overstatement suits the case being made.
I think my complaint is legit in the light of how the scripture characterizes the incident - the woman was DECEIVED, not rebelious or defiant.
In that same light, Mary's "vows" are overstated in that ALL young jewesses were expected by vow of keeping the law altogether, to be virgins until wed. I can't find any scriptural mention of her vows of virginity,... just a profession of her virginity, and how that indicates a full devotion to God, I can't understand, except by beneficent imagination.

I like your writing style. You DID manage to say quite a lot in just a few words, Christina!

 

[Uphill Battle]

That was used to show that Mary was Virgin when Jesus was born. It did not imply that she had sexual reltions after that. Eos ou, as it is in the Greek does not imply something having happened after this point. Eos ou, or until is used many times in Scripture to define an infinite meaning. "I shall be with you even UNTIL the end of ages"...same thing here...

Also assumptions are not made when people who know tell you...

so stating "and she and Joseph never had relations" as opposed to "She and Joseph didn't have relations until Jesus was born" makes more sense? how? Why would the writer not be concise? (considering this is supposedly a very important "truth."

And the virginity of Mary, and her giving birth,
were hidden from the prince of this world,
as was the death of the Lord.
Three mysteries of a cry which were wrought in the stillness of God.
Letter of Ignatius of Antioch to the Ephesians 18-19, 1st century..

It was only in the 4th that it was made Doctrine because of heresy, just like any other Doctrine..

Nothing in the statement from Ignatius has anything to do with perpetual virginity.

(secondly.... not very reassuring assertion regarding the length of time before the doctrine shows up... no proof that it didn't come from then, instead of as you propose.

I asked for Scripture that said that Mary had other children, not that Jesus had brother's. We know Jesus had brother's who were Josephs from a previous marriage. And they reason why they were always with Mary and not their own mother is because she was dead..

"We Know" should be "we believe" because you know no such thing.

If that Psalm is about Jesus and His mother as you insist, than you are saying Jesus is a sinner.

how so?

Well Bible never says they were. We also have other sources..

lets see.... we have a record stating that they were betrothed. We have a record that an angel told Joseph not to be afraid to Marry her. We have a record stating that they didn't have relations before Jesus was born. We have a record that people thought that Jesus was the son of Joseph (which would have been something of note, if Mary and Joseph were not married!)

1+1=???

 

[Uphill Battle]

No they were never married. Jesus' brother's and sister's talked about in SCripture are (has been said numerous time) either close kin or Joseph's children.

we have a record of brothers and sisters.
we have a record that they were married, unless you decide to ignore facts in scripture.

1+1=?

I fail to see how this is so hard.

What it boils down to is reverse engeneering of scripture, stating, hey, look, the marriage and birth certificates aren't in the bible, so hey, this stuff about the angel saying to go ahead and Marry Mary, and this stuff about brothers and sisters.... we have to "interpret" it in a different way, to protect the believes that are supposedly 2000 years (and for all records are more around 1600-1700 years)

I fail to see why those who wrote the bible would decide to use language that would almost certainly deceive the reader!

 

[IamAdopted]

Extra biblical is made up, did you know that?

What Catholics and Orthodox go by is God's word which is what Tradition is, God's word.

This was his word before any of it was put down on paper.

What's on paper is that same Tradition, the part that was written down.

So when you say we use "Extra Biblical," I'm afraid you have thrown me for a loop because I don't know what that is, do you?

Can you document or prove to me what it even is?

You won't be able to, because it doesn't exist. Well, it does in false religions like Mormonism and some Christian sects like the SDA church who go by Ellen Whites writings, but Catholics and Orthodox go by what? What "Extra biblical" writings do we go by that you can cite and document?

Extra biblical is taking things that are not in the bible and adding them to be part of the faith when the bible says nothing about it. Mary isn't hardly mentioned in the scripture but somehow her titles grow and grow. Her being only Human is somehow now something she never was..

 

[IamAdopted]

A book could probably be written on this subject, but I will try to keep it brief, and get to the heart of the matter. As Christians, our purpose is theosis, or union with God. Adam and Eve, before the fall, walked with God, and were born to become completely absorbed in the Godhead, and become like God. What was destroyed in the garden, has been restored through Jesus Christ, and humans can again attain communion with God. Before the fall, Mobiosity, life in the Garden was virginal. There was no sexual union until after the fall, when sin entered the world (Gen 4:1). Yes, God did make provision beforehand and made them male and female because He knew, through His omniscient wisdom, that the human race would dwindle away once death entered unless Adam knew his wife Eve, and she would bear children. Now, aside from after the fall and sin entering into the world, comes Mary, the first Christian. She said yes to God, whereas Eve said no. She is not simply any Christian, she is the Christian all of us strive to emulate (which is Eve before the fall). Mary attained perfection and Eve lost perfection. Mary is Eve, before the fall, when life was virginal and uncorrupt. This does not mean that the Church views marital sex as impure or unclean. It is the higher calling, and one that Paul himself, chose over marriage. When one is a virgin, they can attain perfection physically as well as spiritually. They are also able to devote themselves fully and completely to God. One way we know that Mary was a prophesed virgin, that she had devoted herself to God fully, is by her statement to Gabriel . . . how can this be, seeing I know not a man. She did not understand the implication of Gabriel's announcement of conception because she was a vowed virgin. There are also many OT prophesies of her remaining ever-virgin. She was the gate through which Christ entered and no man after, would enter in. Doesn't it make sense that Mary would remain untouched by any man? She contained the eternal God in her womb, yet lived! This is evidence of her Virtue and Grace. She is our Ark of the New Covenant. The ark in the OT was a shadow of what was to come. She is the burning bush which contained the Fire, yet was not consumed. There is much, much more. But I was trying not to write a book, so I will stop here. Mary's ever-virginity has been believed, taught, and defended by the Church for 2000 years. Even those who started the reformation, like Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, believed in her Purity. Please forgive my long explanation. I hope it makes sense.

Love,
Christina

Where are we ever told that Adam and Eve were to become like God? They were created in His image for eternity. Not to be like God for there is none like God.

 

[HisKid1973]

Extra biblical is made up, did you know that?

What Catholics and Orthodox go by is God's word which is what Tradition is, God's word. /quote]

I was told cap T tradition is all that was written and spoken orally by the apostles penned into what we know as sacred scriptures It is what we need to find Him(the gospel) and mature in the faith..Documents like the protoevangel are man's writings and not part of the canon. ie fallible..Dogmas built on history and not sacred scriptures are extra-biblical. ie not stated in the sacred scriptures and are not essential and could open up avenues for misuse..pax..Kim

 

[repentant]

Iollian posted multiple verses which said Jesus took on our sin on the cross. Read the post!

2 Cor. 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

Sorry doesn't work. "My sins are ever before me", is saying they are his sins, and he is mourning from it.


Geesh, people just like to go and throw up anything they can, don't they...?