Co-Redeemer?

[repentant]

Why does it matter that Mary and Joseph had sex? They were married, they made love, just like all the other married couples in the world.

Do you actually read other posts before you reply? I believe it has been said a few times now on this thread, and about 500 times on other threads that THEY NEVER WERE MARRIED

Maybe the bolded caps will help...

 

[repentant]

so stating "and she and Joseph never had relations" as opposed to "She and Joseph didn't have relations until Jesus was born" makes more sense? how? Why would the writer not be concise? (considering this is supposedly a very important "truth."

Is Jesus saying, "I will be with you for all eternity" easier to say than, "I will be with you even UNTIL the end of ages."..?

Who knows why they wrote it like that. Oh wait, I do, because they wrote it to make sense to the culture and people they were writing to, not to make sense in a language that didn't exist at the time...do people think they wrote the Bible in English to make sense to 21st century America..?

Nothing in the statement from Ignatius has anything to do with perpetual virginity.

Her virginity being hidden from the prince of the world, doesn't mean she was EV to you?

(secondly.... not very reassuring assertion regarding the length of time before the doctrine shows up... no proof that it didn't come from then, instead of as you propose.

Well since Ignatius lived in the 1st-2nd century, and was a Disciple of John the Apostle, who was chosen to take care of Mary...I think he would know..

Also do you have any idea why Doctrines were created in the Ecumenical Councils in the first place? It was because heresy was popping up concerning and against what was taught by the Apostles. This is why they once and for all established Doctrine about things, as opposed to it just being a known belief. You should really read the history of the Councils, and the Church..it really explains alot. Just because something became Doctrine in the 3rd, 4th, 5th century, does not mean that is when it was first believed or brought up..

"We Know" should be "we believe" because you know no such thing.

No we know. That's the thing about the EOC, what we say we know, we know. It has been handed down since the beginning, no need to question the Apostles..

how so?

The verse that was used was verse 8 of the Psalm, if you look at verse 5, it says that he has sins. Now, can this be Jesus? If you say yes, then that would be calling Him a sinner.

lets see.... we have a record stating that they were betrothed. We have a record that an angel told Joseph not to be afraid to Marry her. We have a record stating that they didn't have relations before Jesus was born. We have a record that people thought that Jesus was the son of Joseph (which would have been something of note, if Mary and Joseph were not married!)

Betrothed yes, told to marry her, no. Never says that. Yes they didn't have relations before He was born, nor after. We have no record of after. Because Joseph took Mary in to care for her as a husband, but was not her husband. What kind of scandal do you think a single pregnant woman would be?

 

[Tyndale]

Iollian posted multiple verses which said Jesus took on our sin on the cross. Read the post!

2 Cor. 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

Sorry doesn't work. "My sins are ever before me", is saying they are his sins, and he is mourning from it.


Geesh, people just like to go and throw up anything they can, don't they...?

If Jesus bore our sins in his body, they then become his sin offering to God.

Pss 69 v 5 "and my sins are not hid from thee."

The hebrew word for sin here is ash-maw', which translates as 'the presentation of a sin-offering'


Take a look at verse 21, "They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink."

 

[Mobiosity]

Do you actually read other posts before you reply? I believe it has been said a few times now on this thread, and about 500 times on other threads that THEY NEVER WERE MARRIED

Maybe the bolded caps will help...

What a silly thing to say.Of course they were married. Otherwise, Jesus would have been known far and wide as a bastard.

1. Matthew 1:16
   Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, Who is called the Christ. (the Messiah, the Anointed)
2. Matthew 1:18
   Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place under these circumstances: When His mother Mary had been promised in marriage to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be pregnant [through the power] of the Holy Spirit.
3. Matthew 1:20
   But as he was thinking this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, descendant of David, do not be afraid to take Mary [as] your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of (from, out of) the Holy Spirit.

All from the Amplified Bible. Does the bolding help you understand that you're wrong?

Your posts to the contrary, bolded caps or not, aren't scripture and aren't true.

And you didn't answer my question, what's the big deal about them being married and having sexual relations, intercourse, whatever you want to call it? They were adults and married to each other. For all we know they were chasing each other around every chance they got; what difference would it make?

 

[Asinner]

And thanks for pointin' that out about those reformers. I didn't know that.

I still don't buy it, personaly.
An' I don't completely gree with the statement or idea, that Eve "said no to God".
I mean, I agree that she said that by inmplication, but not directly as it sounds when ya put it that way. I think the overstatement suits the case being made.
I think my complaint is legit in the light of how the scripture characterizes the incident - the woman was DECEIVED, not rebelious or defiant.

Hi Rick

What exactly are you saying here? To me, it sounds as though Eve had no fault in her exile from the Garden. Is this what you believe?

In that same light, Mary's "vows" are overstated in that ALL young jewesses were expected by vow of keeping the law altogether, to be virgins until wed. I can't find any scriptural mention of her vows of virginity,... just a profession of her virginity, and how that indicates a full devotion to God, I can't understand, except by beneficent imagination.

The Angel Gabriel says to Mary, "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb . . . " Mary's response is "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

Mary was Pure, not stupid. Gabriel informs her that she will conceive and she asks how will this happen, seeing that she is a virgin. There are two interpretations to this, IMO. Either Mary does not understand how babies are made , or being a vowed virgin, she is troubled (Luke 1:29) at this announcement because as a young maiden, she understands that babies are made through a sexual union between a man and a woman; thusly breaking her vow to God. After Gabriel informs her that she will not have sexual relations to conceive the Christ, she says, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word." She is a vowed virgin. This is why she is troubled at the angel's announcement. Holy Tradition tells us that Joseph was an older man (a widow) with previous children (the brothers and sisters of Christ) and he was betrothed to Mary as her caretaker. Holy Tradition also says that Joseph was chosen for this role by God: From the POJ . . .

And behold an angel of the Lord stood by him, saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go out and assemble the widowers of the people, and let them bring each his rod; and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went out through all the circuit of Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all ran. 9. And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph's head. And the priest said to Joseph, Thou hast been chosen by lot to take into thy keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord thy God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in thy house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received thee from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave thee in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to thee. The Lord will protect thee. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/infancyjames-roberts.html



Mary never had sexual relations with Joseph. She remained Pure throughout her life.





Rick, I enjoy reading your posts too! You have such a wonderful sense of humor. I understand that this may be hard for you to swallow. Having believed a certain way for a period of time, can make it difficult for anyone to see a different perspective. I was 34, when I converted to Orthodoxy from protestantism. My husband was 40 and we know of one woman from our monastery that converted when she was in her 80's . . . so it is possible (as all things are with God) for you to see Mary in light of Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture instead of just in light of Holy Scripture. Although, IMO, Holy Scripture implicity alludes to her vow of virginity in her statement to Gabriel, "how can this be, seeing I know not a man".

Love,
Christina

 

[IamAdopted]

Do you actually read other posts before you reply? I believe it has been said a few times now on this thread, and about 500 times on other threads that THEY NEVER WERE MARRIED

Maybe the bolded caps will help...

Funny scripture say they were..

16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.

This tells me they were married and Mary was married to Joseph and He was her husband.

 

[IamAdopted]

Hi Rick

What exactly are you saying here? To me, it sounds as though Eve had no fault in her exile from the Garden. Is this what you believe?


The Angel Gabriel says to Mary, "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb . . . " Mary's response is "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

Mary was Pure, not stupid. Gabriel informs her that she will conceive and she asks how will this happen, seeing that she is a virgin. There are two interpretations to this, IMO. Either Mary does not understand how babies are made , or being a vowed virgin, she is troubled (Luke 1:29) at this announcement because as a young maiden, she understands that babies are made through a sexual union between a man and a woman; thusly breaking her vow to God. After Gabriel informs her that she will not have sexual relations to conceive the Christ, she says, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word." She is a vowed virgin. This is why she is troubled at the angel's announcement. Holy Tradition tells us that Joseph was an older man (a widow) with previous children (the brothers and sisters of Christ) and he was betrothed to Mary as her caretaker. Holy Tradition also says that Joseph was chosen for this role by God: From the POJ . . .

And behold an angel of the Lord stood by him, saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go out and assemble the widowers of the people, and let them bring each his rod; and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went out through all the circuit of Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all ran. 9. And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph's head. And the priest said to Joseph, Thou hast been chosen by lot to take into thy keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord thy God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in thy house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received thee from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave thee in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to thee. The Lord will protect thee. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/infancyjames-roberts.html



Mary never had sexual relations with Joseph. She remained Pure throughout her life.





Rick, I enjoy reading your posts too! You have such a wonderful sense of humor. I understand that this may be hard for you to swallow. Having believed a certain way for a period of time, can make it difficult for anyone to see a different perspective. I was 34, when I converted to Orthodoxy from protestantism. My husband was 40 and we know of one woman from our monastery that converted when she was in her 80's . . . so it is possible (as all things are with God) for you to see Mary in light of Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture instead of just in light of Holy Scripture. Although, IMO, Holy Scripture implicity alludes to her vow of virginity in her statement to Gabriel, "how can this be, seeing I know not a man".

Love,
Christina

That is quite an assumption you make that a married couple don't engage in the gift created for married couples. And that children are a heritage of the Lord. When we can read in scripture that Mary and Joseph were married. They did have other children. The bible even names them.. When the writer of the scripture can use for God only begotton Son. and for Mary firstborn son. Making it clear that Jesus was her firstborn son.. And that Mary was wondering how she would be with child since she had not been married yet. And that the bible also shows us that Joseph also honored God and kept her a virgin until the birth of Christ.

 

[Asinner]

That is quite an assumption you make that a married couple don't engage in the gift created for married couples. And that children are a heritage of the Lord. When we can read in scripture that Mary and Joseph were married. They did have other children. The bible even names them.. When the writer of the scripture can use for God only begotton Son. and for Mary firstborn son. Making it clear that Jesus was her firstborn son.. And that Mary was wondering how she would be with child since she had not been married yet. And that the bible also shows us that Joseph also honored God and kept her a virgin until the birth of Christ.

Yes, IAA. I know that you do not believe what I say is Truth. Please do me a personal favor. Don't respond to my posts and I won't respond to yours. I do not wish to engage in fruitless discussion here. If you truly do not understand something I have said, and wish to have me clarify something because you are genuinely interested in having a discussion with me, then you can pm me. OK? Otherwise, I will allow others who have more patience than I do to engage in this infinite tennis game with you. Thank you!

Love,
Christina

 

[tulc]

Betrothed yes, told to marry her, no. Never says that. Yes they didn't have relations before He was born, nor after. We have no record of after. Because Joseph took Mary in to care for her as a husband, but was not her husband. What kind of scandal do you think a single pregnant woman would be? (emph. added)

About like a single woman living with an unmarried older man?
tulc(just wondering)

 

[Uphill Battle]

About like a single woman living with an unmarried older man?
tulc(just wondering)

exactly what I was thinking.

And why did everyone think that Jesus was the son of Joseph, if they were not in fact Married?

(unless of course, you feel that God decided that deception was the way to do things.)

 

[Benedicta00]

Yes, IAA. I know that you do not believe what I say is Truth. Please do me a personal favor. Don't respond to my posts and I won't respond to yours. I do not wish to engage in fruitless discussion here. If you truly do not understand something I have said, and wish to have me clarify something because you are genuinely interested in having a discussion with me, then you can pm me. OK? Otherwise, I will allow others who have more patience than I do to engage in this infinite tennis game with you. Thank you!

Love,
Christina

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Asinner again.

 

[Asinner]

Being betrothed and being married were held to the same standards, I believe. The purpose was to fool satan, because he was looking for a virgin and Mary's betrothment to Joseph, averted his search elsewhere.

Love,
Christina

 

[Mobiosity]

Yes, IAA. I know that you do not believe what I say is Truth. Please do me a personal favor. Don't respond to my posts and I won't respond to yours. I do not wish to engage in fruitless discussion here. If you truly do not understand something I have said, and wish to have me clarify something because you are genuinely interested in having a discussion with me, then you can pm me. OK? Otherwise, I will allow others who have more patience than I do to engage in this infinite tennis game with you. Thank you!

Love,
Christina

Is it really that hard for you to deal with your erroneous beliefs? You choose to ask someone who is pointing out in scripture where you err to stop responding to your posts? Wouldn't it be more effective to ignore Iamadopted? Or maybe you want to see what she says to find the freedom she has in Christ.
Galatians 2:4
because of false brethren who had been secretly smuggled in; they had slipped in to spy on our liberty and the freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might again bring us into bondage.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Being betrothed and being married were held to the same standards, I believe. The purpose was to fool satan, because he was looking for a virgin and Mary's betrothment to Joseph, averted his search elsewhere.

Love,
Christina

bold claim.... no evidence.


How would Satan know to tempt Jesus, if he didn't know who he was?

 

[Mobiosity]

Mary never had sexual relations with Joseph. She remained Pure throughout her life.

A married woman who has sex with her husband and only with her husband is pure.

 

[Benedicta00]

exactly what I was thinking.

And why did everyone think that Jesus was the son of Joseph, if they were not in fact Married?

(unless of course, you feel that God decided that deception was the way to do things.)

When you start to actually ponder this, it makes no sense really.

Mary was with child before they were married officially in Judaism. In any case, those around them knew.

 

[Asinner]

bold claim.... no evidence.


How would Satan know to tempt Jesus, if he didn't know who he was?

He did figure it out, certainly!

 

[Benedicta00]

Is it really that hard for you to deal with your erroneous beliefs? You choose to ask someone who is pointing out in scripture where you err to stop responding to your posts? Wouldn't it be more effective to ignore Iamadopted? Or maybe you want to see what she says to find the freedom she has in Christ.
Galatians 2:4
because of false brethren who had been secretly smuggled in; they had slipped in to spy on our liberty and the freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might again bring us into bondage.

With all due respect to you, there is more to this than just what scripture says.

 

[Benedicta00]

bold claim.... no evidence.


How would Satan know to tempt Jesus, if he didn't know who he was?

No evidence that is found in the canonized book of scripture...

 

[Asinner]

Is it really that hard for you to deal with your erroneous beliefs? You choose to ask someone who is pointing out in scripture where you err to stop responding to your posts? Wouldn't it be more effective to ignore Iamadopted? Or maybe you want to see what she says to find the freedom she has in Christ.
Galatians 2:4
because of false brethren who had been secretly smuggled in; they had slipped in to spy on our liberty and the freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might again bring us into bondage.

You are correct. I should have just ignored her.

Love,
Christina