Co-Redeemer?

[Shane Roach]

But the Catechism states (paraphrase) that Mary in heaven has not laid aside this saving office, in other words, she still now mediates graces in and active fashion, and not just by merit of having given birth to Christ which is a more passive viewpoint.

For me the solution is that Mary is the ultimate "type" of the Church (mother of the Church and represents the Church itself and all its members), and it is via the Church we gain salvation (outside the Church no salvation) ... so all who are saved gain grace via the Church regardless of if they are in the Catholic church as a member because know it or not all grace for salvation is in and from the Church.

This was a problem area for me with that active role of mediating all grace. So understand as I was where you are now not that long ago.

That would seem to fit neatly with Revelation 12:1-6, but it still doesn't quite suggest to me prayer to or through her?

 

[Letalis]

Why do you assume that devotion to Mary somehow takes away one's focus from Christ? Why does it have to be either/or? This has always confused me.

My devotion to Mary is solely for the purpose of her bringing me closer to her Son.

I would be careful not to use the Bible as your only source of God's authority. No where in Scripture does Scripture say that it alone is God's exclusive authority. Being Catholic and knowing how the Bible came into existence, we know that God gave His authoirty to the Church.

True enough, yet something lately has been bothering me. Why is it that something as important as 'mediatrix of all graces' isn't found anywhere in the Bible?

 

[Shane Roach]

I assume, then, you never ask anyone to pray for you?

Sure I do. Just not under the impression that it is something necessary to get a word through to God at all. Besides, aren't we all supposed to pray for each other (James 5:16)?

I am aware of a verse that refers to praying for the dead, but not to the dead. Maybe I am missing something in that way. Even if I could understand enlisting Mary as an intercessor, I would still feel pretty strongly about praying directly to the Father though... Because of the Lord's prayer very particularly, which often is taught among Protestants as something of a model prayer in how it moves from praise to requests to an affirmation of His role as God.

 

[Paul S]

Sure I do. Just not under the impression that it is something necessary to get a word through to God at all. Besides, aren't we all supposed to pray for each other (James 5:16)?

And that's what prayer to Mary is. It isn't necessary, but that's all it is.

I am aware of a verse that refers to praying for the dead, but not to the dead.

Those in heaven are not dead, but more alive than we are now.

 

[Dream]

I am aware of a verse that refers to praying for the dead, but not to the dead.

God is God of the living, not the dead.

 

[Letalis]

Who here prays to Mary more than to God?

 

[plainswolf]

When Saul of Tarsus was on his way to arrest and persecute the Apostles and Christians, suddenly Christ appeared to him and said: "Saul, Saul! Why persecutest thou Me"? Now think about that statement... Saul was on his way to persecute the Christians, not Christ, but in persecuting them whom Christ so loved, it was as if Saul was persecuting Christ Himself, and this is why Christ addressed him in such manner... this is how intimate the 'Communion of Saints' are...

The same could be said of when we pray to Mary, for which Christ could answer "what asketh thou of Me"? Because prayers to Mary go directly to Christ, to God, but do so in a FAR more perfect way than we are capable of. It was either Saint Maximilian Kolbe or Saint Alphonsus Ligouri who once answered a question of venerating Mary too much, something like: "We can never heap enough praise upon Mary, nor love her enough, nor honor and venerate her more than God Himself has done and continues to do."

J.M.J.
Mark

 

[Letalis]

When Saul of Tarsus was on his way to arrest and persecute the Apostles and Christians, suddenly Christ appeared to him and said: "Saul, Saul! Why persecutest thou Me"? Now think about that statement... Saul was on his way to persecute the Christians, not Christ, but in persecuting them whom Christ so loved, it was as if Saul was persecuting Christ Himself, and this is why Christ addressed him in such manner... this is how intimate the 'Communion of Saints' are...

Asking saints to pray for us isn't wrong (IMO). However, how many here pray to Mary more than to God? Why is it that when we are given a prayer by Christ, it is to the Father? Why isn't it to Mary? Obviously Christ prefers for us to pray directly to Him.

The same could be said of when we pray to Mary, for which Christ could answer "what asketh thou of Me"? Because prayers to Mary go directly to Christ, to God, but do so in a FAR more perfect way than we are capable of. It was either Saint Maximilian Kolbe or Saint Alphonsus Ligouri who once answered a question of venerating Mary too much, something like: "We can never heap enough praise upon Mary, nor love her enough, nor honor and venerate her more than God Himself has done and continues to do."

Why aren't we told of this in the Bible? Obviously it is such a huge part of Christianity. All graces come from Mary? Praying to Mary is praying directly to God? This is clearly extremely important. Why is it mentioned not even once? Not even hinted at?

 

[plainswolf]

Praying to Mary is praying directly to God? This is clearly extremely important. Why is it mentioned not even once? Not even hinted at?

Perhaps I should have worded my reply abit better..

This would be in a very narrow and theological sense... if I ask you to pray for me and you do so, then I have asked something of God through you, because you have interceeded on my behalf.. The same in the case of Mary, asking her her to ask God on my behalf, in a very narrow sense, is asking something of God through her and she is much more pleasing to God than I. So asking God through her is asking God in a more perfect way. I pray also to God directly, but most often with her assistance.

 

[Paul S]

Why aren't we told of this in the Bible? Obviously it is such a huge part of Christianity. All graces come from Mary? Praying to Mary is praying directly to God? This is clearly extremely important. Why is it mentioned not even once? Not even hinted at?

Remember the wedding at Cana? Jesus at first refused, but when Mary said "Do whatever He tells you", He changed the water into wine.

And in 1 Kings, the mother of the king performs the same role Mary does.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I thought I had heard another interpretation that I found myself able to accept. The interpretation was that grace came to the world through the womb of Mary (meaning Jesus). Thus the title 'Mediatrix of all graces.' The interpretation was something similiar to that.

The doctrine starts here. At the very least it is this.

However, we believe that Mary continues in this office in her role as intercessor - She is a mighty prayer warrior! Those who have turned to her to ask for her intercession have come to know this in their lives.




John Paul pray for us

 

[thereselittleflower]

Without doubt the church has grown and evolved, but it is clear that the New Testament warns of false as well as true teachings, so we all struggle I think to sift the bad from the good teachings. Obviously I don't see myself as falling into a trap here.

I guess the point I am making here is that salvation does not seem to require any belief at all about Mary, but rests exclusively on Christ.

All our beliefs about Mary rest exclusively in Christ.

All our beliefs about Mary accentuate and deepen our understanding of who Christ is and what He has done for us.

I am reminded just now of the verse regarding John the Baptists who said, "I must decrease so that He may increase," and things such as this seem to reinforce the idea that focus should be always on Christ, whom the Spirit reveals to us all.

While it seems from the outside that any attention given to Mary takes away attention we could be giving to Christ, the reality is very different . . .

Any attention we give to Mary is given directly to Christ . . one cannot give attention to Mary without giving attention to her Son. . . . She is transparent . . . she keeps nothing for herself . . . all that is given to her is given to her Son . .. it is simply that she accompanies us to her Son.

Can you imagine how pleased He must be when He sees His own mother accompanying us to His throne on prayer? Can you imagine how this must delight Him?



Mary always directs our attention to her Son and says "Do whatever He tells you to do"

Well, Romans 8:26-30 seems to trace intercessions from the Spirit, to Christ, to the Father.

Do you ever ask someone else to pray for you? Should you be doing this if you are only to ask the Holy Spirit to pray for you?

As far as Mary being married to the Holy Spirit separately from Christ's marriage to the church, there seems to be no mention of it in revelation as anything distinct. There are no mentions anywhere of needing Mary's intercessions between man and the Holy Spirit, and as I mentioned before the Holy Spirit actually appears to dwell in every Christian. "Do you not know your body is a temple?" That sort of thing.

Of course, and do we isolate ourselves from each other in prayer? Do we isolate ourselves from each other when it comes to asking for another's intercession? Do we ask for it? Do we pray for others? How can we pray for others if they are to go to and through the Holy Spirit only?

We see Mary as a type of the Church if this helps your understanding at all.

This all becomes dangerously close to debate and I am constantly at pains not to press it in that direction. Obviously, I am not yet in full communion so to speak with the Catholic teaching here, and I am as I was, merely asking if there are teachings or ideas that directly address these issues.

Yes, there are . . but sometimes it takes time to make the mental shift necessary to see and understand them.

Thanks again an again for all your help! Looking foreward to the whole Conclave. Whatever else one believes, it seems clear this is going to be a crucial historic moment and I am curious as to how it will turn out.

Take care.

As we all are. Thank you for your kindness and interest in understanding our faith . . . keep trying . . .

May I ask you something? Are you adverse to praying the Rosary? Is this something you think you would consider trying? It is mostly scriptural with a short prayer asking for Mary's intercession. Sometimes actually doing something, exposing one's self to something in a material, concrete way, can help with understanding another's viewpoint. There are many protestants who do pray the rosary.

Is this something you would be willing to try?



John Paul pray for us

 

[thereselittleflower]

More or less by definition, if one is relying on Mary to speak to the Holy Spirit when one has been told to rely on the Holy Spirit directly, there appears to be a lessening of the role of the Father, as in Matthew 16:17, or the Spirit which in turn is the one who points us to Christ, according to verses like Romans 8:16 and 1 John 5:6.

Do you ever rely on others to speak to the Holy Spirit for you, on your behalf? Do you ever ask anyone to pray for you?

Why is it not wrong for you to ask them, but we have to only rely on ourselves to speak to the Holy Spirit? Why can you ask your friends but we can't ask Mary?

Mary is one of us . . just like your friends

Indeed, without the prompting of the Holy Spirit, none of us would know the Bible from a book of Wicca.

I can PERSONALLY testify to the accuracy of that statement!!! Truly!

Still, there are many verses to be had on the subject of proper instruction, choosing leaders, and discerning a false from a true teaching. So rather than worry about whether or not I am succumbing to any number of presuppositions, if any one has an explanation as far as the roots of this teaching and how it relates to the questions I had, that would be more helpfull.

Can you restate your questions again? I am sorry, but I've lost track . .

I know that many of you have been plagued by scrutiny of your faith from people who have these various assumptions. I'm sure I am not free of assumptions of various types myself. I am simply trying to figure out the nature of what is unique about Mary, where the teaching comes from, and how it is ballanced with other teachings I am familiar with.

Would we not start off by agreeing that Mary is indeed unique among all people who have ever lived and who will ever live for being the only one in all of humanity to bear GOD, phsycially, in her womb?



John Paul pray for us

 

[thereselittleflower]

That would be something I could wrap my head around more easily as well, actually. But after years of praying to the Father or to Jesus I find the prospect of praying to Mary somehow a misplacement of my faith.

I pray by the Spirit through Christ to the Father, is my understanding.

We understand prayer in this way too.

I can't figure why that would be a bad thing,

Never it is a bad thing, and our doctrines about Mary do not make it a bad thing or inferior to asking Mary to pray for us and with us. It is never an "either/or" proposition with us.

or less effective than praying through Mary by the Spirit through Christ to the Father.

Tell me . . is praying by yourself more effective? Or joining in with others to pray with them?

If you knew you could have Mary pray with you and for you, would you ask her to? Would you want her to? or would you say "no thanks, I can do it on my own" ?

I can't find any reason to enlist Her other than perhaps as has been mentioned as a co-intercessor, and even then it would seem to me a strange sort of diversion of effort. Even like, the Lord's Prayer, is directed to the Father.

Hmm.

Do you feel the same way about enlisting the prayer efforts and intercessions of others on yours or someone else's behalf?

Doesn't it seem natural to ask other's to pray for you? Right to ask other's to pray for you?

this is how it seems and feels to us in regards to Mary . .

Is this all helping?


John Paul pray for us

 

[thereselittleflower]

My devotion to Mary is solely for the purpose of her bringing me closer to her Son.


True enough, yet something lately has been bothering me. Why is it that something as important as 'mediatrix of all graces' isn't found anywhere in the Bible?

It is

Rev 22:1,2 And he shoed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of it's street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of nations.


​

One of Mary's ancient titles is Tree of Life for she bore the fruit of Life Himself into the world, the fruit of her womb, Jesus.


One can see the Trinity here . . .God (the Father) the Lamb (the Son) and the river of life (the Holy Spirit) . . . .there is a 4th element here . .. the Tree of Life . . .

Here we can see described symbolically what the Cahtolic Church teaches about Mary . . . . Notice that the river of Life flows THROUGH the Tree of Life . . . Christ came into the world THROGH Mary, was conceived BY the Holy Spirit in Mary and born through Mary . . . the Holy Spirit is depicted here as flowing THROUGH Mary . . . Jesus sent the Hoiy Spirit to all believers . . this happened because Jesus came to the world THROUGH Mary, and it can be said in a real sense that the Holy Spirit flows through Mary because the giver of the Holy Spirit came through mary . . We see here a picture of the incarnation . . . We also see here a picture of her contuining role as the tree continues to bear fruit, and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of nations . . . These speak also of the graces of God . . .

This image is rich and deep in meaning . . . .

All scriptures which deal with Mary are like this . . they use very few words to convey a great depth of understanding . . Mary is a hidden vessel of the Lord . . the passages in the bible that speak of her or to her have to be mined for their riches . . .these riches are easily passed over and missed if one does not know to look for them there . . .


John Paul pray for us

 

[thereselittleflower]

Asking saints to pray for us isn't wrong (IMO). However, how many here pray to Mary more than to God? Why is it that when we are given a prayer by Christ, it is to the Father? Why isn't it to Mary? Obviously Christ prefers for us to pray directly to Him.

Does that mean He prefers that we not ask each other to pray for each other?

That is what prayer is you know . . simply asking someone for something . . .

When I ask you to pray for me I am "praying" to you . .. that is how we use the word "pray" in Catholicism. . .

Why aren't we told of this in the Bible? Obviously it is such a huge part of Christianity. All graces come from Mary? Praying to Mary is praying directly to God? This is clearly extremely important. Why is it mentioned not even once? Not even hinted at?

Well, since Mary keeps nothing for herself, where do you think our prayers to her go?



John Paul pray for us

 

[Rising_Suns]

Why aren't we told of this in the Bible? Obviously it is such a huge part of Christianity. All graces come from Mary? Praying to Mary is praying directly to God? This is clearly extremely important. Why is it mentioned not even once? Not even hinted at?

Read my signature.

This is a good book, which I think I have suggested to you once before. I believe you are prepared enough to read it.

 

[WarriorAngel]

FACT:

Jesus was the role model of the Apostles

Jesus prayed to the Father

Mary is Jesus' family, and the first believer, WITH UTMOST IN FAITH.

IT is written
Jam.5:14-16,
If one among you is sick? Let him bring in the presbyters of the Church, and let them pray over him, annointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess, therefore, your sins to one another, that you may be saved.


Lk.6:27-29,
"But I pray to you who are listening; Love your enemies do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you, and PRAY for those who calumniate you. And to him who strikes thee on the one cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away thy cloak, do not withhold any tunic either.

Act.8:23-25.
"For I see thou art in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity."
But Simon answered, "Do you pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may happen to me."
So they, after bearing witness and preaching the Gospel of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel to many Samarian villages.




Luke 16, 9- 10
And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors, saying; "Rejoice with me, for I have found the Drachma that I had lost. "Even so. I say to you. there will be JOY among the Angels of God over one sinner who repents."

1 Cor 12, 12
For as the BODY is one and has many members, all of the members of the body, many as they are, FORM ONE BODY, so also IS IT WITH CHRIST.
For in one Spirit we are all baptized INTO ONE BODY, whether Jew or Gentiles, whether slaves or free; and we were all given to drink OF ONE SPIRIT.
For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body?" is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear says, "Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body," it is therefore not of the body?
27
Now you are the body of Christ, member for member.

Rev 5, 8
And when he opened the scroll , the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each a harp and golden bowls full of incense, WHICH ARE THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS.

WHO can deny Mary is a member of Christ's body...and are we not told to pray one for another??
Whether or not you pray with her, DO not deny others who may.
SHE remains the Member of Christ's body...because we never cease being a part of Him, who lives on in heaven.
Mary is both a member, a Saint, and the faithful...the first faithful.

 

[WarriorAngel]

"There is but one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ, himself human" (1 Tim 2:5). The Greek word used here for "one" is "heis," meaning first or primary, not "monos," meaning sole or only, so it does not cancel the idea of secondary mediation, such as when one person prays for another.

And indeed, between God and man there is one mediator, Jesus Christ… but between Christ and men there are many mediators: When you bring your child to church, you are Mediator!. When someone teaches you the Bible or the Christian doctrine, he is a Mediator. Were not for many Mediators, you would had never even heard about Christ, as many Africans or Chinese have never heard about Christ… Jesus in person did not baptized you, the one who did is a Mediator…

God's plan has always been to employ mediators, i.e., prophets, patriarchs, apostles, evangelists, angels...


We all Christians are Intercessors, Advocates: The mother prays for her child, the pastor for his parishioners, we constantly pray for each other, following the many teachings of the Bible at this respect. Jam.5:14-16, Lk.6:27-29, Act.8:23-25.
If we ask a pastor or any Christian to pray for us, we certainly should ask specially the saintly people to pray for us, most specially those who already died and are with the Lord, like St Peter, St. Paul, St. Elisabeth, St. Therese…

This is where we MUST follow Tradition, the original holders, and interpreters to the Bible...for look again, the Term HEIS..is primary...Not Monos, which is sole.

 

[Rising_Suns]

All scriptures which deal with Mary are like this . . they use very few words to convey a great depth of understanding . . Mary is a hidden vessel of the Lord . . the passages in the bible that speak of her or to her have to be mined for their riches . . .these riches are easily passed over and missed if one does not know to look for them there . . .


John Paul pray for us

This is very true. Although little is mentioned about Mary in the Scriptures, what is said carries profound weight. Our devotion "The Seven Sorrows of Mary", for example, was not created out of thin air. Simeon said to Mary that "a sword will pierce your own soul to the end so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed." [Luke 2:34] The immaculate heart of Mary has seven swords piercing Mary's heart. This is all drawn from Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. And we believe this profound suffering that Mary had to endure helped prepared her for her future role as our mother, for "no one so deeply feels what Christ endured as one who has had to suffer as He did.” [Imitation of Christ]

And this is merely one small line from Scripture.


Here is something that may help explain Mary's role from a Scriptural standpoint in a more thourough fasion;
.
.
.
.
.
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15. Why honor Mary?
Sacred Scripture tells us that Mary was distinctly set apart from all women; “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” [Luke 1:28], “most blessed are you among women, and blessed in the fruit of your womb.” [Luke 1:42]. These words alone are a powerful testimony to the degree of holiness Mary had. To be full of God’s grace is to be living completely in the spirit and not of the flesh; it is to be living without the tarnish of sin. The Church also affirms that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life; “Mary said to the angel, ‘How can this be, since I am a virgin The angel answered and said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you" [Luke 1:34].

Not only does Scripture confirm Mary’s sinlessness and virginity, but it also forshadows the wonderous graces God bestowed upon her when He spoke to the serpent, saying; “I will put enmities between thee and the woman and thy seed and her seed; she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.” [Gen 3:15] And further; "And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" [ Rev 12:1] Mary said; “From now on all generations will call me blessed.” [Luke 1:48]

It only makes sense that God would choose and bless such a person to bear His Son. She gave birth to the second person of the Holy Trinity in His fullness; God the Son. Thus, since we know that Jesus is God, we rightly call Mary, Mother of God. It is in this way that Catholics venerate (honor) Mary, but in no way do we worship her, and in no way do we elevate her to a fourth person of the Holy Trinity. She is not divine by nature like Christ is, yet she is God’s most perfect created creature; she is queen of heaven and spouse of the Holy Spirit through the grace of God.

It is through the continual revelation of Christ’s Church that we know God has given Mary special graces which she pours out to others through her prayers for us. Since Mary is most blessed above of all people, her petitions carry more weight than all the angels and saints in heaven. She has brought billions of people to know Christ more profoundly, and she will continue doing so as only the mother of God could. It is in this way, that as our love of Christ grows, so too should our devotion to Mary. Even the original Protestant reformers were all in agreement on this point.

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honored? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." [Martin Luther, last sermon in 1546]

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow." [Ulrich Zwingli]

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor." [John Calvin]

16. Isn’t praying to Mary like worship her?
No. Let me first clarify that, as a Catholic, we understand “pray” to merely mean “communicate”. Now, let us first look at what we say to Mary when we pray to her. In the beginning and throughout most of the Hail Mary prayer, all we do is repeat what is already directly stated in the Bible at the Annunciation (Luke 1:28, 42). The only request we make to Mary is in the final words of the prayer; “pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death. Amen.”

So you see, when we pray to Mary, all we are doing is asking her to pray for us. We know that through her motherly love, she will undoubtedly petition to God on our behalf. This is all the Hail Mary prayer is; a request for Mary’s prayers. It is really no different than asking our friends and family to pray for us, except unlike people on earth, Mary is now in heaven. And unlike those in heaven, Mary is the one person blessed beyond all other created beings; blessed with the highest honor of bringing our savior into the world.

"The fervent prayer of the righteous is very powerful." [Jer 17:9]


17. Why can’t I just pray directly to God?
We do pray directly to God: When we pray to Mary we are really praying through her, to God. Everything that Mary is and everything that Mary does, points to her Son Jesus Christ. One may ask why this is beneficial as compared to praying to God alone. To answer this, one must truly understand the profound power prayer in order to understand why we ask for the petitions from others. We must remember that we are all part of the body of Christ, and so by praying for the good of others, we are essentially praying for the good of the entire Body of Christ. It is so natural and so essential to the spiritual well being of us all. And if we find such value the prayers of other people on earth, imagine the value in the prayers of the one person in heaven who is such a perfect channel of God’s graces that she brought His Son into the world! What powerful and profound spiritual family to have, is it not?


“By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a ‘preeminent and wholly unique member of the Church’; indeed, she is the ‘exemplary realization’ of the Church….Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace.’” [Catechism of the Catholic Church, 968]