Clones...

[new2calvin]

A Friend of mine and I have been working on a theory about clones, and why it's evil. Not just the normal moral reasons but another one. Do clones have souls? We think no. They can't because they are not their own person, they are just a copy of another person. No new genetic material is bread therefore they can't have a soul. Because they aren't an individual. THey aren't even concieved. The way clones are created removes conception. They take an egg cell, and remove all the genetic material from it, they then put in the other subjects DNA into the empty cell. Finally to FORCE the cell to devide they give it an electrical shock. This is completely unnatural and should not be done. Each time someone is naturally concieved it forms new DNA cloning does not. Not to mention all the problems clones will have growing up. They have problems aging meaning, they age abnormally, and they develop cancerous growths. Doesn't that send a tiny message to scientists, "Hey maybe you shouldn't do this." Oh well the end is near any way. God Bless.

 

[chickenman]

are identical twins souless?

because they're basically the same as a clone

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by new2calvin
A Friend of mine and I have been working on a theory about clones, and why it's evil. Not just the normal moral reasons but another one. Do clones have souls? We think no. They can't because they are not their own person, they are just a copy of another person. No new genetic material is bread therefore they can't have a soul.

Better develop a soul-detecting device, round up all the identical twins, and kill half of 'em.

Because they aren't an individual. THey aren't even concieved. The way clones are created removes conception.

So? Only one conception is involved in twins, triplets, and so on.

Either half of all the twins out there are soulless, or God is not so *stupid* that He can't give you a soul except exactly at the instant of conception, or if "conception" is done in some unusual way.

This is completely unnatural and should not be done. Each time someone is naturally concieved it forms new DNA cloning does not.

Except for twins.

Not to mention all the problems clones will have growing up. They have problems aging meaning, they age abnormally, and they develop cancerous growths. Doesn't that send a tiny message to scientists, "Hey maybe you shouldn't do this." Oh well the end is near any way. God Bless.

It certainly suggests that it's premature to do it to humans, but I don't see it as a moral issue so much as a technical one.

The end has been "near", even "within this generation", for two thousand years. How about instead of sitting on our hands waiting for God to magically make everything better, we get out there and *do* something?

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

What about identical twins then?   Identical twins result when a single fertilized egg (called a zygote) spits into two separate zygotes.  This can happen when cell division occurs, and rather then the two cells sticking together - they fall apart.  Voila two separate individuals when at first you had one.  One is the copy of the other.  Neither is the orginal. So, I ask you do identical twins both have souls?

There is really little differenct between an identical twin and a clone.

What about chimerac individuals.  Accodording to a text book i have -"Biology" (Wessells and Hopson 1988) it is possibe for two separate embryos - early in development - to fuse together to form a single individual.  This has been done in the lab with different colored mice, to produce individuals with a mixture of cells from both originals.  In other words, the exact opposite of what happens when identical twins occur.

Now, hypothetically, it is possible for two separate embryos to do this naturally.  This could possibly occur with fraternal twin zygots. Two fraternal twins are no more alike then any other pair of siblings - and can even have different fathers! Would the resulting chimerac embryo have one soul or two.

 

How about parasitic twins.  SOmetimes is occurs that identical twins develop - but not entirely separate.  One englufs the other.  There have been cases of merged bodies (think siamese twins - but one is way more dominant) or even fully developed - but tiny - bodies embedded inside another.  Does the lesser of the two     have a soul.  Or do they share a soul?

 

 

 

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

This is almost identical to this thread - http://www.christianforums.com/threads/20536.html

Wow, twin threads

 

[chickenman]

lots of simultaneous posts about twins too

eerie

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Does that mean that this thread does not have a soul?

 

[Orihalcon]

maybe twins only have half a soul because they were conceived at the same time... =P

 

[chickenman]

hmmm. Interesting idea. That means clones should take their half of their soul back from the people they were cloned from

 

[Douglaangu]

Originally posted by chickenman
hmmm. Interesting idea. That means clones should take their half of their soul back from the people they were cloned from

Doesn't that involve killing them, then eating their heart?

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by Late_Cretaceous
Wow, twin threads

Maybe one is a clone.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

For once you and I may agre on something...

It seems that someone evil is cloning "evil clone" threads all over the internet.

Maybe it is satan trying to get fearful and ignorant people to start killing suspected "soulless clones" to discredit their repective religions.

Then again maybe it's just people with too much time on their hands and not enough education, either biologicaly or theologicaly...

 

[Chuck_Darwin]

What a great idea! I think someone should invent a soul dectecting machine. It would really help out in these complex moral areas.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

does it even say anywhere in the bible that everybody has a soul?

 

[new2calvin]

One it was only a theory. And I see that its pretty crappy. Just something to think about. But one identical twins aren't completely the same. They have different finger prints and personalities. Clones on the otherhand do have the samefinger prints. And personalities if raised by teh person they were cloned from. Nature vs Nurture its pshychological. But anyway I realize that they might have souls. But you can't really prove me wrong and I can't prove you wrong. Another good question is...does God love the clones??? He didn't create them, so is he obligated to love them?

 

[lucaspa]

Originally posted by new2calvin
Clones on the otherhand do have the samefinger prints. And personalities if raised by teh person they were cloned from.... But anyway I realize that they might have souls. But you can't really prove me wrong and I can't prove you wrong. Another good question is...does God love the clones??? He didn't create them, so is he obligated to love them?

1. How do you know they have the same fingerprints? We haven't got any human clones yet.  And fingerprints arise from stochastic events during development of the fetus; they are not coded in the genes.

2.  They wouldn't have the same personalities, because the experiences in their formative years would be different. After all, the original was raised by parents, right? 

3.  Having souls, according to Christianity, is a gift of God.  Are clones people?  If so, why would God refuse to give them souls?

4.  God didn't created any person directly.  After all, you were "created" by a sexual act of your parents, not formed from the dust by God.  A human formed by fusion of the haploid genomes of sperm and eggby isn't any more created by God than a human formed by somatic nuclear cell transfer.

5. Is God "obligated" to love any human? Or is it God's choice to love people?

One more thing, in your initial post you said that clones didn't have "new" DNA. According to creationists, no one has "new" DNA anyway.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Originally posted by new2calvin
One it was only a theory. And I see that its pretty crappy. Just something to think about. But one identical twins aren't completely the same. They have different finger prints and personalities. Clones on the otherhand do have the samefinger prints. And personalities if raised by teh person they were cloned from. Nature vs Nurture its pshychological. But anyway I realize that they might have souls. But you can't really prove me wrong and I can't prove you wrong. Another good question is...does God love the clones??? He didn't create them, so is he obligated to love them?

I think you are getting a little confused by science fiction...

One, why would clones have the same fingerprints when identical twins do not?

Why would clones have the same personality when twins fo not?

Where are you getting your clone information since as far as I know there has not been a single sucsessful human cloning event, let alone enough to do any sort of studies?

All of what you stated is currently science fiction, and rather bad science fiction at that.

 

[Jerry Smith]

I was cloned numerous times. Admittedly this was in Steve Jackson's Car Wars & I haven't seen my clones since 1990ish, but I'm here to attest to the fact that they do have souls, identical fingerprints & personality, and driver +6, gunner +2.