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Clearing up misconceptions about evolution

VirOptimus

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There are some differences.
I'll delete out the differences from this definition of religion, and just leave the similarities below. You could call this "Quote Mining" but it serves to show the connection.


Dictionary.com

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, ...
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons ...
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices...

get religion, Informal .
a.
to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of... beliefs and practices.



Webster

2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of ...attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
— re·li·gion·less adjective

Quote mining? That doesnt even begin to cover the problems with this post. Evolutionary theory is not anything of those things that you have quoted, its just a way to describe how certain things in nature works.
 
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SkyWriting

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Quote mining? That doesnt even begin to cover the problems with this post. Evolutionary theory is not anything of those things that you have quoted, its just a way to describe how certain things in nature works.

It's exactly these things:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, ...
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons ...
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices...

get religion, Informal .
a.
to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of... beliefs and practices.



Webster

2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of ...attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
— re·li·gion·less adjective



Glad I can help.
 
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Non sequitur

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It's exactly these things:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, ...
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons ...
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices...

get religion, Informal .
a.
to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of... beliefs and practices.



Webster

2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of ...attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
— re·li·gion·less adjective



Glad I can help.

This sounds exactly like a cult.
 
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CabVet

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There are some differences.
I'll delete out the differences from this definition of religion, and just leave the similarities below. You could call this "Quote Mining" but it serves to show the connection.


Dictionary.com

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, ...
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons ...
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices...

get religion, Informal .
a.
to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of... beliefs and practices.



Webster

2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of ...attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
— re·li·gion·less adjective

I have three things to say about this:

1. Evolution is not a belief.
2. Evolution is not a belief.
3. Evolution is not a belief.

You can either accept evolution based on the evidence provided to you or not. There is no need to "believe" in anything.
 
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marleysdaddy

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Proof is offered up constantly of the Bible being real, In stead of making the Bible agree with science, science must agree with the Bible. The LAW of ELOHIM is PERFECT.
If science does not agree with the Bible, then it is science falsely called and not real science. Scientia is the Latin word for knowledge. What goes by the name science today is not science it is hypotesis. Read mans books on medical science or astro physics, what was written 20 years ago is different than what is written today. TRUTH does not change. Science is wrongly used when it is applied to conjectures, hypotesis, or theories. YAHS WORD is TRUTH. YAH is TRUE KNOWLEDGE.

Memukan a Seeker of Truth
and a Seeker of Knowledge.


You misunderstand the nature and scope of science...most of science is conjecture, hypotheses, and theories. And MOST of the time, people are fine with that...I am sure you think that our current theory of gravity is a good explanation of a natural phenomenon even though it requires of the existence of gravitons, hypothetical particles we have NEVER observed.
 
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verysincere

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I was discussing ELOHIM CREATOR of the Universe, you were linking to your teachers of evolution which is your religion.

Here we go again with the "evolution is religion" mantra.

What fascinates me most about such nonsense is that it is always my religious brethren who like to bandy about the word "religion" as an insult applied to their opponents! (Don't you realize that this insults both them and us at the same time?)

I suppose that simply dismissing evidence and the science developed around the evidence in just one word, "religion", is a lot less work than having to actually engage the ideas and the massive accumulation of evidence. Quick, simple........and utterly unconvincing.

Try again.
 
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Non sequitur

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You misunderstand the nature and scope of science...most of science is conjecture, hypotheses, and theories. And MOST of the time, people are fine with that...I am sure you think that our current theory of gravity is a good explanation of a natural phenomenon even though it requires of the existence of gravitons, hypothetical particles we have NEVER observed.

The theory doesn't require those.
 
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verysincere

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marleysdaddy wrote:
"I am sure you think that our current theory of gravity is a good explanation of a natural phenomenon even though it requires of the existence of gravitons, hypothetical particles we have NEVER observed."

The theory doesn't require those.

I'm not a professional physicist but I was of the understanding that gravitons were indeed an important part of the most prominent theory of gravity. But I'm not exactly sure what you mean about the theory not "requiring" gravitons.
 
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I have three things to say about this:

1. Evolution is not a belief.
2. Evolution is not a belief.
3. Evolution is not a belief.

You can either accept evolution based on the evidence provided to you or not. There is no need to "believe" in anything.
Evolution is designed to be everything for everybody. If you want to believe in something evolution theory will give you something to believe in. If that is not something you want or need then you are under no obligation to take advantage of it.
 
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Non sequitur

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marleysdaddy wrote:
"I am sure you think that our current theory of gravity is a good explanation of a natural phenomenon even though it requires of the existence of gravitons, hypothetical particles we have NEVER observed."



I'm not a professional physicist but I was of the understanding that gravitons were indeed an important part of the most prominent theory of gravity. But I'm not exactly sure what you mean about the theory not "requiring" gravitons.

"...point mass in the universe attracts every other point mass with a force that is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. This is a general physical law derived from empirical observations..."

Empirical observations. No need for that other stuff.
 
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NailsII

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- The Uniqueness of the Bible
- The Reliability of the Bible
Confirmation of the Historical Text
Confirmation by Archaeology
- Jesus - Man of History
- Jesus - God's Son
more.....
The bible is not as unique as Aboriginal religious ideology, becasue the bible is, at least in part, common to the ancient Sumarians, the ancient Egyptians, the Christians, the Jews and the Muslims.
That is hardly unique.

It is hardly reliable either - bats are not birds, pi is not 3, animals don't get markings from their parents loking at stripped animals....

Need I go on?
It's exactly these things:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, ...
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons ...
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices...

get religion, Informal .
a.
to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of... beliefs and practices.



Webster

2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of ...attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
— re·li·gion·less adjective.
I'm not suprised that you distrust evolution if that is how you define it - most of us would too.
Therefore your idea is quite clearly wrong.
Note with interest how you are not so critical of your own belief system....

I have three things to say about this:

1. Evolution is not a belief.
2. Evolution is not a belief.
3. Evolution is not a belief.

You can either accept evolution based on the evidence provided to you or not. There is no need to "believe" in anything.
Agreed.
Here we go again with the "evolution is religion" mantra.

What fascinates me most about such nonsense is that it is always my religious brethren who like to bandy about the word "religion" as an insult applied to their opponents! (Don't you realize that this insults both them and us at the same time?)

I suppose that simply dismissing evidence and the science developed around the evidence in just one word, "religion", is a lot less work than having to actually engage the ideas and the massive accumulation of evidence. Quick, simple........and utterly unconvincing.

Try again.
Well said.

It so much easier to do though, isn't it.

Evolution is designed to be everything for everybody. If you want to believe in something evolution theory will give you something to believe in. If that is not something you want or need then you are under no obligation to take advantage of it.

Germ theory is designed to be everything for everybody. If you want to believe in something germ theory will give you something to believe in. If that is not something you want or need then you are under no obligation to take advantage of it.
 
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verysincere

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"...point mass in the universe attracts every other point mass with a force that is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. This is a general physical law derived from empirical observations..."

I think I see your problem now. You are confusing the LAW of gravity with a leading THEORY of gravity.

As soon as I saw that you were describing the formula that expresses quantitatively the FORCES impacting pairs of point masses, I understood why you were baffled by the mention of gravitons. (So while the law may not "require" mention of gravitons, some theories of gravity most definitely do.)

Confusing a scientific law and a scientific theory is very common in these kinds of discussions. In simpler terms, The Law of Gravity summarizes the math but a Theory of Gravity is an explanation of the observations/data.

There are plenty of excellent explanations of these terms online so I won't bother to expand that tangent here, seeing how the topic is "Clearing up misconceptions about evolution" although with that topic we often see the layperson even more baffled by terminology, especially as to how evolution can both be a fact (in terms of data) and a theory (which is also a kind of fact in yet another meaning of the word.)



 
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verysincere

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It [the Bible] is hardly reliable either - bats are not birds, pi is not 3, animals don't get markings from their parents loking [sic:looking] at stripped [sic:striped] animals....

Need I go on?

Please don't, because you've just repeated three popular myths about the Bible, all ceaselessly promulgated by amateurish Bible-bashing websites. While I appreciate your efforts to contribute to the thread by clearing up misconceptions about evolution, in the process you've emphasized your own misconceptions about the Bible.

Indeed, your pontification on topics in which you have very little knowledge is remarkably similar to what ill-informed Young Earth Creationist do in creating straw-man arguments to deny evolution. You, much like the YECs here, repeat the nonsense you've heard from your favorite self-appointed "experts" and perpetuate debunked mantras despite having been corrected countless times.


So here we go one more time:



1) "Bats are not birds."

The Bible never claims that they are. The underlying Hebrew word's definition is much closer to "flying creatures which are not also insects", but skilled translators dealing with any pairing of source and target languages must grapple with differential mapping of semantic fields while also producing a final text which reads smoothly.

But even as a reader unskilled in basic linguistics, you should have applied common sense and realized that you've committed an ANACHRONISM FALLACY in expecting an ancient culture (or even a 1611 KJV Bible translator) to adopt Linnaean taxonomy (concerning formal classifications of mammal vs. bird) long before Carl Linnaeus was born. Of course, even today there are many cultures, such as Amazonian rain forest tribes, whose languages group ALL warm-blooded flying creatures into a single-word term. To expect their languages to segregate flying mammals from flying avians is naive cultural bigotry at best and downright ridiculous naivete at its worst. But, I dare say, to call a simple lexical FACT of the ancient Hebrew language a "Bible error" is just as silly as many of the equally clueless anti-evolution rants of dogmatic YECs.


2) "Pi is not 3."

The Bible never states that Pi=3. The amateur Bible-bashers who try to concoct an "error" from 1Kings 7:23 demonstrate an ignorance of elementary schools mathematics that rivals their struggles with basic reading comprehension skills.

a) The Bible is not describing an "ideal cylinder" with a wall of paper-thin thickness. The text doesn't tell us whether the basin had the same diameter from top to bottom. We don't even know if the implied circumference is an inside or outside measurement. In fact, I would challenge you to consider every bowl and water basin you've ever seen. Were ANY of them a simple cylinder? Probably not. And 1Kings 7:26 explicitly tells us what common sense would suggest: "And it was a handbreadth thick; and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, like the flower of a lily." Hardly a simple cylinder! And if it was an aesthetically-pleasing flared design, both the ambiguities and the mathematical complexities multiply.

b) In any case, if the reader is worried about mathematical precision, we also know that "Pi is not 3.14" and "Pi is not 3.1415926". Pi is both an irrational and a transcendental number. Pi cannot be expressed exactly in "decimal terms" nor as a ratio of two integers. So technically, both Pi=3 and P=3.1415926 are false statements. So I suppose Bible critics could complain of an "error" in the text, even if it included painstakingly precise measurements for the basin. But even if the math is over your head, you should be willing to admit that both of the aforementioned values for Pi are approximations, and as a result, you must also admit that BOTH are thereby correct. The only difference is the number of significant digits of precision. So even Pi=3 can be considered correct; it is simply a description of Pi to one-significant digit. And if you are the final judge of the required precision of the implied value of Pi in the 1Kings passage, are you telling us that it was "erroneous" for the author to round-off his measurement of the diameter of the basin to the nearest cubit (10 cubits) and/or the circumference, whichever of several he could have chosen to measure to the nearest cubit (30 cubits)? Indeed, if you still need help on the math, if the diameter was 9.55, multiplying by Pi yields a circumference of 30.0022093. Is that close enough for you? Or are trying to convince us that there is some "literary law" which says that authors are not allowed to round their numbers when giving a general description of an object? My reaction to your effort to call this a "Bible error": Lame. Lame. And very lame. [Actually, based on the use of Hebrew letters to express numbers in the Hebrew language, I could also cite the writings of various rabbis who demonstrate a much greater precision in the original language text but your "argument" has already been thoroughly debunked.]


3) "Animals don't get markings from their parents loking [sic] at stripped [sic] animals."

No they don't. But the Bible never claims that they do. (Your lack of sound reading comprehension skills have failed you again.) Instead, Genesis 30 records the simple fact that Jacob (and his culture in general) THOUGHT that what a pregnant animal saw could impact her offspring. Genesis 31 ignores Jacob's efforts at manipulation as irrelevant to the outcome and states that God favored Jacob with wealth by producing many more striped offspring (and speckled and mottled young, even if none of Jacob's rods had been of that pattern.) Nowhere does the Bible claim that Jacob's self-efforts had manipulated the genetic outcomes.



It [the Bible] is hardly reliable either - bats are not birds, pi is not 3, animals don't get markings from their parents loking at stripped animals....

Need I go on?

Considering that you are 0 for 3 so far, I'd say that you should quit while you're behind. While I enjoy the clueless mantras of arm-chair Bible critics almost as much as those of anti-evolution propagandists, the lame "arguments" do get tiresome after many decades of repetition. It is time to retire them and at least move on to something new.



 
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zijiatimothy

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Hm I actually believe in evolution. Except for the fact that humans were created from god, not descended from apes. I remember a time when my teacher asked the pastor, " did the bible say anything about dinosaurs?" The pastor answered the question with a word, "no". It goes to show that we do not know about how animals looked like then. Another example would be the story of noah's ark. God instruct him to bring a pair of each animal up. He did not say monkey, elephants, horse etc etc. everything thing in this world will change, except the lord.
 
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verysincere

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Hm I actually believe in evolution. Except for the fact that humans were created from god, not descended from apes. .

Weird dichotomy. Let me get this straight:

1) You "believe in" evolution. But somehow you exempt humans from it?

2) You write "human were created from god." (I assume you meant "God".) But "from God" has a different meaning than "by God". What exactly do you mean?

3) Why would human evolution from ape-like ancestors negate God's involvement? Why do you assume that the PROCESSES which God used in bringing about Homo sapiens were not evolutionary processes?

4) The Bible says that God created HADAM ("the man") in God's image. Christians have traditionally understood that God is a spirit and that the "image of God" has little to do with the physical body (because God has no physical body except in the instance of the incarnation.)


So why create a false dichotomy between evolution and God's creation of humans (and everything else)? Genesis describes God as the creator of all life but it says nothing about the processes used. (At most it says that the dust of the ground, the basic chemical elements, were the ingredients from which all life was/is composed. Indeed, abiogenesis---non-living dust becoming living organisms--- is exactly what the Bible describes.) So how can you claim that the Bible denies that evolutionary processes were involved in the creation of man and all other living things? (Of course, I'm looking for another answer besides simply, "Man-made traditions have claimed that Adam was created 'instantaneously'." The Bible makes no such claim.)
 
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Zaius137

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“abiogenesis---non-living dust becoming living organisms--- is exactly what the Bible describes.”

The above statement is a contradiction of principle. Abiogenesis includes such things as the RNA world view and maybe self replicating proteins… NOT GOD. God created life as He put forth in Genesis chapter 1… From non living matter (The ultimate ID).

I do not usually comment on other believer’s points concerning evolution right or wrong. I do think it is a sad state of affairs for the believer to even consider the concepts behind evolution to be true. I believe evolution died its own death by the evidence currently available in science. Abiogenesis has been given up by the evolutionist because it is simply untenable. Only those ignorant of the problems of both abiogenesis and evolution are even able to support the new evolution synthesis let alone the Christian. Maybe it is my naïve beliefs that no one can truly support evolution if they only understood the problems; maybe in the case of the believer the Holy Spirit is the only solution.
 
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Non sequitur

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I think I see your problem now. You are confusing the LAW of gravity with a leading THEORY of gravity.

As soon as I saw that you were describing the formula that expresses quantitatively the FORCES impacting pairs of point masses, I understood why you were baffled by the mention of gravitons. (So while the law may not "require" mention of gravitons, some theories of gravity most definitely do.)

Confusing a scientific law and a scientific theory is very common in these kinds of discussions. In simpler terms, The Law of Gravity summarizes the math but a Theory of Gravity is an explanation of the observations/data.

There are plenty of excellent explanations of these terms online so I won't bother to expand that tangent here, seeing how the topic is "Clearing up misconceptions about evolution" although with that topic we often see the layperson even more baffled by terminology, especially as to how evolution can both be a fact (in terms of data) and a theory (which is also a kind of fact in yet another meaning of the word.)




I know the difference. Your condescending tone didn't help, thanks.

"I am sure you think that our current theory of gravity is a good explanation of a natural phenomenon even though it requires of the existence of gravitons, hypothetical particles we have NEVER observed."

My point being that it is theorized through empirical observations, not willy-nilly assertions of things that can not be.
 
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verysincere

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“abiogenesis---non-living dust becoming living organisms--- is exactly what the Bible describes.”

The above statement is a contradiction of principle.

Perhaps for you, but I consider the Genesis 2:7 a reliable record of origins:

"the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

Abiogenesis is living matter coming from non-living ingredients. God created the human one (HADAM) from the dust of the ground (HADAMAH). Life from non-life. You don't have to believe it but that is what the Bible says.

Abiogenesis includes such things as the RNA world view

Huh??? I have never heard of a "RNA world view" despite two science degrees. Sorry I can't help you with that one.


.... and maybe self replicating proteins… NOT GOD.

It sounds like you are confusing the scientific method with theology. Theology explores the ways of God. But the scientific method explores natural processes. (For the Bible-believing Christian, science explores the natural processes which God uses to accomplish his will in the universe. It sounds like you are simply frustrated that non-theists haven't redefined the scientific method to fit your theology and to suit you.)

God created life as He put forth in Genesis chapter 1… From non living matter

That's what I just said! Life from non-living ingredients (i.e., the basic chemical elements of dust/soil.)

Break the word down: "abio" [non-life] + "genesis" [origin, the beginning].

Living things come from non-living ingredients. That's what the Bible says and that is what science says. Perfect harmony between God's two books.

If your complaint is that science doesn't add the commentary "And God did it!", you are confused about the purpose and methodology of science. When you read about photosynthesis in a biology book, do you protest and say, "This book is wrong and I deny the theory of photosynthesis because it does not mention that God created photosynthesis!" ?? It sounds like you don't understand the definition of science nor how it works.



I do not usually comment on other believer’s points concerning evolution right or wrong.

That is wise because you clearly have a poor understanding of evolution, Genesis 1 & 2, and the nature of the scientific method in general. Silence is always the best course until one adequately understands the topic.


I do think it is a sad state of affairs for the believer to even consider the concepts behind evolution to be true.

Excellent! You have summarized your problem perfectly! As you admit, you won't even CONSIDER the scientific evidence which God has placed within his creation. If your mind is totally closed to the evidence, how do you expect God to answer your questions about his creation and to understand basic scientific truths?!

I believe evolution died its own death by the evidence currently available in science.

Really??? I know I've been too busy to follow the news lately but I've not heard ANYTHING about the "death" of the theory of evolution. (Or are you the only one who "heard" this special revelation?)


Abiogenesis has been given up by the evolutionist because it is simply untenable.

I'm not sure why you assign abiogenesis to the "evolutionist" but your "simply untenable" newsflash is yet another memo which the rest of the world somehow missed. (Do you often "hear" things which nobody else has heard?)

In any case, I'm quite willing to affirm the general concept of abiogenesis (life from non-living ingredients) because God has made that fact clear in both his Scriptures and his Universe. Sorry to hear that you are not a Bible-believer.


Only those ignorant of the problems of both abiogenesis and evolution are even able to support the new evolution synthesis let alone the Christian.

Do you really think complaining about the "ignorant" is going to dig you out of the hole you've dug for yourself?

(And by the way, abiogenesis and the theory of evolution are two different topics. Some scientists have used the term "chemical evolution" in discussions of abiogenesis hypotheses but it has not become a universally adopted term, largely because of the confusion it tends to promote. Sadly, "creation science" advocates have multiplied the general public's confusion about the term "evolution".)


Maybe it is my naïve beliefs that no one can truly support evolution if they only understood the problems; maybe in the case of the believer the Holy Spirit is the only solution.

I think you are headed in the right direction when you talk about "naïve beliefs." (But I have great empathy because I spent many years ignoring the evidence.)

I also heartily agree with you that "in the case of the believer the Holy Spirit is the only solution." It was not until the Holy Spirit convicted me of my elevating the cherished man-made traditions of my church over what God tells us in the scriptures (AND what Gods tells us in his creation) that I repented of misleading my Christian brethren. God showed me that I was unwittingly deceiving non-believers into thinking that my "creation science" pseudo-science could be blamed on the Bible itself. I was promoting a false dichotomy: that one must choose either the Bible or Science, and that one must therefore ignore or deny (or confuse through straw-man arguments) the answers which God has provided through the massive volumes of scientific evidence for an "old earth" and for the theory of evolution.

I do agree with your reference to an Intelligent Designer. God is the master designer who created the physical laws of the universe in such an amazing way that His evolutionary processes have wonderfully adapted life to changing environments and have produced the tremendous diversity of life we see around us. Praise God! If you think that this kind of majesty, omniscience, and omnipotence on the Creator's part is denied by the scriptures, I challenge you to read Genesis again and ask the Holy Spirit to free you from the shackles of the man-made traditions which have for so long hobbled the Church. I'll be praying for you.
 
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