Clarification on the Creation

Bond-servant of Christ said:

so says your theology! You have not responded to my question if you are a Jesus ONLY "christian"? Simple question, just a yes or no will do

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that's rich ...why just the other day i asked you four simple questions which a yes or no answer would do and you avoided them like a plague

honey badger said:

John 5:7 was added to some translations in the early fifteen hundreds

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meaning what? Like 1 Timothy 3:16, where θεος (God), has been corrupted to ὃς (who), likewise 1 John 5:7 has also been corrupted.

Let me respond to you from the Greek in the context, without the words of verse 7. "There are Three that bear witness", these words are not disputed as being part of the text. In the Greek it reads, "τρεῖς οἱ μαρτυροῦντες", this is written in the masculine gender, even though, "Πνεῦμα (Spirit), ὕδωρ (water), and αἷμα (blood) are all neuter? Grammatically, this is inconsistent, to say the least! However, once the words, "ὁ πατὴρ ὁ λόγος καὶ τὸ ἅγιον πνεῦμα, The Father, The Word and the Holy Spirit", are in the context, the problem with the Greek grammar is no longer there! Likewise, in verse 8 we read, "are one", where the Greek is, "τὸ ἕν εἰσιν". Again, the use of the Greek article "τὸ" here, is completely without any purpose, IF the words in verse 7, "οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσι" (which Three are one), are not there. The ONLY purpose of the Greek article here, is for "renewed mention", that is, to refer the "ONE" in verse 8, back to the "ONE" in verse 7. Just two proofs which cannot be disputed, showing that the Apostle John wrote the words, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one".

honey badger said:

John 5:7 was added to some translations in the early fifteen hundreds ... in some earlier translation it appears at the bottom of the page but not in the text ... the Codex Sinaiticus which is one of the earliest hand written Greek copies does not have the "Johannine Coma" .... thing is the foundation of the doctrine of the trinity is based on this verse and yet it is an an interpolation

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One doesn't need 1John 5:7 to see the Trinity throughout scripture.

Charlie24 said:

Well, my point is that God the Father owns all things.

In Heb. 1:2 we learn that God the Father has appointed Christ the heir of all things.

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In EXACTLY the SAME way both Jesus Christ, Who is Yahweh, and The Holy Spirit, Who is Yahweh, own ALL things! This is what the Bible teaches from Genesis to Revelation!

honey badger said:

that's rich ...why just the other day i asked you four simple questions which a yes or no answer would do and you avoided them like a plague

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notice that my question was not addressed to you here!

Charlie24 said:

One doesn't need 1John 5:7 to see the Trinity throughout scripture.

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its not an issue for me, i was just pointing out the fact it is an interpolation ...

Bond-servant of Christ said:

notice that my question was not addressed to you here!

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i know ... it just amuses me that you hold others to a higher standard than you do yourself ...

Bond-servant of Christ said:

meaning what? Like 1 Timothy 3:16, where θεος (God), has been corrupted to ὃς (who), likewise 1 John 5:7 has also been corrupted.

Let me respond to you from the Greek in the context, without the words of verse 7. "There are Three that bear witness", these words are not disputed as being part of the text. In the Greek it reads, "τρεῖς οἱ μαρτυροῦντες", this is written in the masculine gender, even though, "Πνεῦμα (Spirit), ὕδωρ (water), and αἷμα (blood) are all neuter? Grammatically, this is inconsistent, to say the least! However, once the words, "ὁ πατὴρ ὁ λόγος καὶ τὸ ἅγιον πνεῦμα, The Father, The Word and the Holy Spirit", are in the context, the problem with the Greek grammar is no longer there! Likewise, in verse 8 we read, "are one", where the Greek is, "τὸ ἕν εἰσιν". Again, the use of the Greek article "τὸ" here, is completely without any purpose, IF the words in verse 7, "οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσι" (which Three are one), are not there. The ONLY purpose of the Greek article here, is for "renewed mention", that is, to refer the "ONE" in verse 8, back to the "ONE" in verse 7. Just two proofs which cannot be disputed, showing that the Apostle John wrote the words, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one".

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your funny ... how on Gods green earth could John have written those words, seeing they first appeared in the fifth century !!!

Nevada Smith said:

John 1: 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

This is much clearer.

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This question is for Nevada.....is Jesus God?

Bond-servant of Christ said:

In EXACTLY the SAME way both Jesus Christ, Who is Yahweh, and The Holy Spirit, Who is Yahweh, own ALL things! This is what the Bible teaches from Genesis to Revelation!

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There is one God who manifests Himself in three persons, there is a distinction.

In John 17:5, Jesus asks the Father to glorify Him with the same glory in His humanity as He had with Him before the world was created.

The Father answered this prayer when Jesus came out of the tomb with a glorified body.

Through what Jesus did for mankind at the Cross, the manifestation of the Son has taken the forefront.

This is why every knee shall bow at the name of Jesus.

God is one. There is only one God.

The father is God
Jesus is God
The Holy Spirit is God

They created all things
God created all things
The Father created all things
Jesus created all things

All the statements about creation above are true. So where is the inconsistency of Jn1 or Col 1?

honey badger said:

i was just pointing out the fact it is an interpolation

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not a fact, but pure fiction!

honey badger said:

your funny ... how on Gods green earth could John have written those words, seeing they first appeared in the fifth century !!!

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Tertullian (c. 155 - c. 245 AD):

"Ita connexus Patris in Filio et Filii in Paracleto, tres efficit coharentes, alterum ex altere, qui tres unum sunt, non unus, quomodo dictum est, Ego et Pater unum sumus." (Against Praxeas XXV).

"Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, one from the other, which three are one, not one [person], as it is said, "I and my Father are One."

Cyprian (c. 210 - 258 AD):

“Dicit Dominus, Ego et Pater unum sumus; et iterum de Patre et Filio et Spiritu sancto scriptum est: 'Et tres unum sunt.'” (Treatise I:6).

"The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one."

Both of these Church theologians read Latin and Greek, and used both language New Testaments! The words of 1 John 5:7 were very clearly part of their Epistle of John, and they lived 200 years earlier!!!

Bond-servant of Christ said:

not a fact, but pure fiction!

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believe what you will ... its not an issue for me

Nevada Smith said:

I am a Universalist. I also believe in God the Father and God the Son.

John 1:1 NIV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Nothing about any Holy Ghost or Spirit being there, just God the Father and God the Son.

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"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptise them into the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". (Matthew 28:18-19)

In this one verse, we have the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity. The Speaker here is the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is giving instructions to the Disciples on the baptism of new believers, after they have been saved. He says that this baptism is to be administered in the “Name”, “of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”.

It should be noted, that Jesus does not say, in “ta onomata”, in the Greek, which is the plural, “Names”. But, clearly uses the singular, “to onoma”, THE NAME. It might be reasonably asked, that, as there are Three Persons mentioned in this verse, why would Jesus use the singular, “Name”, and not the plural, “Names”? This singular “Name” is common with the Three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They share this equally.

When Moses witnessed the spectacular event of the “Burning Bush”, which was not consumed, in Exodus chapter 3, the Lord God spoke to him from the bush, are told him that he had been chosen to deliver God’s people, the children of Israel, from Egypt. Moses asks the Lord, that if he were asked for the identity of this God, what Name should he give them. To which the Lord God Almighty answered, "Ehyeh ’ăsher ’ehyeh", which is best rendered in our English as, “I am Who I am”(verse 14), which means, “Eternal, Self-existing, All-powerful, Creator God”. In fact, the Greek version of the Hebrew Old Testament, which was produced some 150 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ, by the best Hebrew scholars of the day, render the Hebrew text as, “"ego eimi ho on", which is, “I am the Eternal One”. Say to those who ask of you, that “I AM” (’ehyeh), has sent me to you. “God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The Lord (Yahweh), the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my Name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations” (verse 15). The Hebrew Name of God, “Yahweh”, has its root in the verb, “’ehyeh”, speaking of the “eternal, self-existence” of the God of the Holy Bible, Who is Unique, as He has no equal.

The main Name of the Triune God of the Holy Bible, is “Yahweh”, or, as some use the corrupted form, “Jehovah”. It is this NAME, that Jesus Christ refers to in Matthew 28:19, which is used equally for the Three Persons.

It should also be noted, that, even though Jesus says "Name", (singular), the Greek text that follows is also very important: "tou Patros kai tou Huiou kai tou Hagiou Pneumatos", where the Greek "article" (tou), is repeated, to show that a "distinction" of Persons is meant. (Dr Samuel Green; Handbook to the Grammar of the Greek Testament, pages, 198-199)

This is very similar to Jesus’ words in John 10:30, where He says: “ego kai ho pater hen esmen”, which literally is translated, “I and the Father, one We are”. Here we have the use of the singular neuter, “hen”, (one), and the masculine plural “esmen” (We are). This “unity” which Jesus is speaking of concerning Himself and the Father, is not merely of “agreement of will and purpose”, which of course is true, but it is much deeper, as the context shows. Jesus speaks of His sheep being “secure in His power (hand)” (verse 28), which is exactly the same as the Father’s “power” (verse 29). This can only refer to an “essential unity”, between the Lord Jesus Christ (Who is mentioned in this passage, first), and the Father. What is true of the Father, is also True of the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus rebukes Philip in John chapter 14, for this very thing. Philip was not content in Jesus words and authority, and asked for “the Father”, to which Jesus replies, there is not real “difference” between the Persons. Like Matthew 28:19, John 10:30 shows a “distinction and unity” between the Persons, which is only possible, if the Persons are absolutely equal.

Nevada Smith said:

I am a Universalist

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does this mean that you do not believe in a literal eternal punishment of those who will be lost? And that all humans will end up in heaven, even Judas and the devil himself?

honey badger said:

believe what you will ... its not an issue for me

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because you cannot accpe the Truth, probably a Jehovah's Witness, who reject the Trinity, or one of those "sects", that also do so!

Bond-servant of Christ said:

Tertullian (c. 155 - c. 245 AD):

"Ita connexus Patris in Filio et Filii in Paracleto, tres efficit coharentes, alterum ex altere, qui tres unum sunt, non unus, quomodo dictum est, Ego et Pater unum sumus." (Against Praxeas XXV).

"Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, one from the other, which three are one, not one [person], as it is said, "I and my Father are One."

Cyprian (c. 210 - 258 AD):

“Dicit Dominus, Ego et Pater unum sumus; et iterum de Patre et Filio et Spiritu sancto scriptum est: 'Et tres unum sunt.'” (Treatise I:6).

"The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one."

Both of these Church theologians read Latin and Greek, and used both language New Testaments! The words of 1 John 5:7 were very clearly part of their Epistle of John, and they lived 200 years earlier!!!

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tut tut ... the lengths theologians will go in support their theories ....

Personally, I believe it is impossible for mortal man to fully understand the relationship of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It's a completely different realm of thinking.

We explain it and think we understand, but we don't. We only have a general idea.