Circumcision

HARK! said:

My answer would be dependent on which side of the debate of the Jerusalem Council that you stand on.

There are only two sides to this debate.

"No" was not mentioned in that debate.

You can't come in 2000 years ex post facto, and add a third side to the debate.

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Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

There is only 1 question asked, and its a yes or no question.

Guojing said:

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

There is only 1 question asked, and its a yes or no question.

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Shalom Brother,

The question that you have asked is answered in the OP:

HARK! said:

The Jerusalem Council

There are two sides to this debate. I want to say right out of the gate, that you can't come back, 2000 years later, and add a third side to this debate.

The first group are non believers. they follow the traditions of men, the Talmud. They don't even keep the Torah.

(CLV) Ac 15:1
And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved."

Their argument is that you cannot be saved unless you show the outward sign. This is not what Torah teaches. Was Abraham saved before or after he showed the sign?

Abraham wasn't circumcised until he was 99.

(CLV) Gn 17:24
Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he had the flesh of his foreskin circumcised.


Are disciples of Yahshua saved before or after Baptism?

Here is the other side of the Argument. These men are believers:


(CLV) Ac 15:5
Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses.

This group argues that you must be circumcised to keep the law.

These are the only two arguments that are being made.

One is that you must be circumcised to keep the law of Moses. This is the law that Yahshua preached throughout his ministry unto death; as he called us to follow his example.

The other is that you must be circumcised to be saved. These are the only two sides to this debate.

You can't come in 2000 years later and add your own argument.

Here is the ruling:


(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.



Leviticus 17
7 No longer shall they sacrifice their sacrifices to hairy goat-demons after whom they have been prostituting. An eonian statute shall this become for them throughout their generations. 8 To them you shall say:Any man from the house of Israel or from the sojourners who sojourn in your midst who should offer an ascent offering or a sacrifice 9 and not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment to offer it to Yahweh, that man will be cut off from his kinsmen. 10 As for any man from the house of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who should eat any blood, I will set My face against the soul eating blood, and I will cut him off from among his people, 11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter. 12 Therefore I say to the sons of Israel:No soul at all of you shall eat blood; nor shall the sojourner sojourning in your midst eat blood. 13 Any man from the sons of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who hunt a game animal or a flyer which may be eaten will pour out its blood and cover it with soil, 14 for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel:The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Everyone eating it shall be cut off.

This is of the bare minimum that newcomers must respect to even share table fellowship with believers.

Why? (and this part seems to be ignored by those who have contempt for the law that Yahshua preached throughout is ministry unto death):

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For (because) Moses (Torah), from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."


Now shortly after Paul left this meeting; he circumcised Timothy himself.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Messiah followed the Torah, not the Talmud.

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

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I hope this helps.
Blessing and Peace multiplied unto you!

Phillip Hawley said:

Shalom Brother,

The question that you have asked is answered in the OP:



I hope this helps.
Blessing and Peace multiplied unto you!

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I could not detect a clear yes or no in that OP, that was why I asked.

Guojing said:

I could not detect a clear yes or no in that OP, that was why I asked.

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He clearly stated,

HARK! said:

These are the only two arguments that are being made.

One is that you must be circumcised to keep the law of Moses. This is the law that Yahshua preached throughout his ministry unto death; as he called us to follow his example.

The other is that you must be circumcised to be saved. These are the only two sides to this debate.

Click to expand...

Guojing said:

I could not detect a clear yes or no in that OP, that was why I asked.

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The way I read this, you can elect to be circumcised or to be circumcised. Is that clear enough?

Phillip Hawley said:

The way I read this, you can elect to be circumcised or to be circumcised. Is that clear enough?

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So he is saying its totally optional, and does not bring you closer to God.

Would that be the correct conclusion to draw?

HARK! said:

As scripture tells us, Paul's writings are not easy to understand.

(CLV) 2Pt 3:15
And be deeming the patience of our Lord salvation, according as our beloved brother Paul also writes to you, according to the wisdom given to him,

(CLV) 2Pt 3:16
as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to apprehend, which the unlearned and unstable are twisting, as the rest of the scriptures also, to their own destruction.


If Peter, who took the full course from Messiah, who was in the inner circle of those who walked with Messiah, who saw things that the other Apostles who walked with Messiah didn't get to see, who was a contemporary of Paul in the culture, who spoke the same language as Paul, who understood the subtle nuances of the common idioms of the day, says that Paul is difficult to understand; then you can be sure, that 2000 years removed, in a different culture, through two translations, through evolving languages, that Paul is difficult to understand!


Paul Proved to James, brother of Messiah, appointed bishop of the church by Messiah himself, that he was not teaching apostasy, like some of his false accusers had inferred.

(CLV) Ac 21:21
Now they were instructed concerning you that you teach all the Jews among the nations apostasy from Moses, telling them not to be circumcising their children, nor yet to be walking in the customs.

(CLV) Ac 21:22
What is it, then? Undoubtedly a multitude must come together, for they will hear that you have come.

(CLV) Ac 21:23
This, then, which we are saying to you, do. With us are four men having a vow on them.

(CLV) Ac 21:24
Taking these along, be purified together with them, and bear on their expenses, that they should be shaving their heads, and all will know that what they have been instructed concerning you is nothing, but you also are observing the elements and you yourself are maintaining the law.

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I, Paul: "To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law—though not being myself under the law—that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law—not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ—that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." 1 Corinthians 9:20-23

Paul was not under the Law of Moses. Paul was under the Law of Christ.

Luke 16:16
“The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law (of Moses), that every one who has faith may be justified.

Jesus fulfilled and ended/finished the Law (of Moses) by His sacrificial death on the cross. His sacrificial death made the old (first) covenant obsolete, because by His sacrificial death on a cross made from a tree, Jesus Christ mediated a new and better covenant.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (The Jewish old covenant religious system completely disappeared in 70 AD.)

Every iota and dot of the law and the prophets concerning Jesus' first coming were fulfilled/finished either before or by Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross.

Matthew 5:18
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single iota or one little stroke will pass from the law until everything takes place.

What exactly is this 'heaven and earth"? This heaven and earth is the first covenant. This is a Jewish metaphor. So Jesus is saying: I tell you the truth, until the first covenant passes away, not a single iota or one little stroke will pass from the law (of Moses) until everything (including my death) takes place.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth (first covenant Deuteronomy 29:25-29) to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,

The history of the Jews shows us that heaven and earth and world can represent the first covenant or the first covenant religious system and its temple:

Josephus First, Book III, chap.6, section 4:
"Now the room within those pillars was the most holy place; but the rest of the room was the tabernacle, which was open for the priests. However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God."Of the veil at the holy of holies, he said, "This veil was very ornamental, and embroidered with all sorts of flowers which the earth produces; and there were interwoven into it all sorts of variety that might be an ornament, excepting the forms of animals"

EUSEBIUS
Bishop of Caesarea
(c. 265 - 340)
Extract from the 'Theophania' :
"All authorities concur in the declaration that "when all these things should have been done" "The End" should come: that "the mystery of God should be finished as he had declared to His servants the prophets": it should be completed: time should now be no more: the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass: in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets : or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done: the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem--all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realised on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations; God's holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished; and, from that day to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, the Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days--in obedience, faith and hope.' "

There can be only one religious system in force at a time for the people of God. Jesus' death on the cross finished/fulfilled all the requirements of the first covenant and thereby His death ended the Law of Moses. Jesus' death on the cross mediated a new and better covenant and so now the Law of Christ is in force. Today's Jews do not realize that their covenant is no longer in force.

Galatians 6:2
Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

HARK! said:

The Jerusalem Council

There are two sides to this debate. I want to say right out of the gate, that you can't come back, 2000 years later, and add a third side to this debate.

The first group are non believers. they follow the traditions of men, the Talmud. They don't even keep the Torah.

(CLV) Ac 15:1
And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved."

Their argument is that you cannot be saved unless you show the outward sign. This is not what Torah teaches. Was Abraham saved before or after he showed the sign?

Abraham wasn't circumcised until he was 99.

(CLV) Gn 17:24
Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he had the flesh of his foreskin circumcised.


Are disciples of Yahshua saved before or after Baptism?

Here is the other side of the Argument. These men are believers:


(CLV) Ac 15:5
Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses.

This group argues that you must be circumcised to keep the law.

These are the only two arguments that are being made.

One is that you must be circumcised to keep the law of Moses. This is the law that Yahshua preached throughout his ministry unto death; as he called us to follow his example.

The other is that you must be circumcised to be saved. These are the only two sides to this debate.

You can't come in 2000 years later and add your own argument.

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You know my stance on Acts 15, and I know the Apostles were not teaching against Torah in Acts 15., but I would ask a question regarding what was written, if you don't mind.

4 Now coming along into Jerusalem, they were received by the ecclesia and the apostles and the elders. Besides, they inform them of whatever God does with them." 5 "Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up," saying that they must be circumcised, "besides" charging them to keep the law of Moses."

Acts 15: 8 (CLV) And God, the Knower of hearts, testifies to them, giving the holy spirit according as to us also, 9 and in nothing discriminates between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith." (While Uncircumcised)

10 Why, then, are you (Sect of the Pharisees which believed) now trying God, by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we are strong enough to bear?

Peter was addressing the 2nd group of people, the Sect of the Pharisees "which believed".

HARK! said:

Here is the ruling:

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.

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So in the Ruling, there was no instruction for the Gentile Converts to become physically Circumcised, even though that was the question at hand, that the Sect of the Pharisees had demanding for centuries.

While our studies have led to the same conclusion on many things, and I consider us Brothers, I disagree with your views on this topic. Please consider the reasons why. First, it's not because I don't believe in God's Sign between Him and man. I do. My Protestant Parents circumcised me as a baby. Otherwise, between me and God I would have opted to obey Him. But no one would know, because it's against God's Law to look on the nakedness of the brethren, and I would not expose myself just to prove my Faith in God. But HE would know, and that is what is important, Yes? Like all obedience to God, it must be a Voluntary Humility, in my view. Forcing a man to love his neighbor, or Love God or Keep His Sabbaths Holy, or cut the loose skin of his penis doesn't work. It doesn't make men righteous. The Law and Prophets show this perfectly. One must Seek God from the heart. One must "offer themselves" a living sacrifice. One must "Yield themselves" servants to obey God.

I don't believe "circumcision" is an "Outward Sign" at all, although it is a sign in the private flesh. God's Sabbath is an Outward sign, but not Circumcision. There is not one Story in the Entire bible where a man needed to be stripped naked to see if he were God's Servant. It's even against God's Law to have steps up to His alter, exposing these very private parts.

Ex. 20: 25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it. 26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

Since Noah's time there is recorded judgments against looking on the nakedness of others, as Ham and his brothers showed us. The nakedness of man is a private matter between God and man, just as it is between bride and Groom. How can it be an outward sign, if it against God's Law to walk around naked?

And when Paul Circumcised Timothy, it is written why?

Acts 16:3 This one Paul wants to come out with him, and, taking him, circumcised him "because" of the Jews "who are in those places", for they all were aware that his father belonged to the Greeks." (uncircumcised)

HARK! said:

Leviticus 17
7 No longer shall they sacrifice their sacrifices to hairy goat-demons after whom they have been prostituting. An eonian statute shall this become for them throughout their generations. 8 To them you shall say:Any man from the house of Israel or from the sojourners who sojourn in your midst who should offer an ascent offering or a sacrifice 9 and not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment to offer it to Yahweh, that man will be cut off from his kinsmen. 10 As for any man from the house of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who should eat any blood, I will set My face against the soul eating blood, and I will cut him off from among his people, 11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter. 12 Therefore I say to the sons of Israel:No soul at all of you shall eat blood; nor shall the sojourner sojourning in your midst eat blood. 13 Any man from the sons of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who hunt a game animal or a flyer which may be eaten will pour out its blood and cover it with soil, 14 for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel:The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Everyone eating it shall be cut off.

This is of the bare minimum that newcomers must respect to even share table fellowship with believers.

Why? (and this part seems to be ignored by those who have contempt for the law that Yahshua preached throughout is ministry unto death):

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For (because) Moses (Torah), from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."


Now shortly after Paul left this meeting; he circumcised Timothy himself.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Messiah followed the Torah, not the Talmud.

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

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In Acts 15, there is NO Command to obey even one of Gods Laws. They were not commanded or forced into Loving their neighbors, etc., as the Law commands They were only shown their sinful practices and told to "Abstain" from them while they listened to Moses who would direct them in "The Way that they should go".

Remember, it was no Sin to be uncircumcised for Abraham from 75 years old, to 99 years old. The Children of Israel in Joshua's care crossed over the Jordan, into the Promised Land, while "Uncircumcised".

In my studies, Circumcision is between God and man, and must be from the heart of the man. A direct relationship between God and the individual.

Gen. 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, "between me and you" and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

It makes perfect sense that the Spirit of Christ in these Apostles would not force these men into a covenant they didn't understand, but still give them His Spirit. And the Apostles knew that this same Spirit of Christ would lead those who were "purchased" into all Righteousness, through Moses, having given them a clean slate.

It's a great topic, and it's clear that the Apostles in Acts 15, did not teach against the Torah, as "many" who come in Christ's Name preach.

Guojing said:

When you keep repeating Torah, you include physical circumcision into the Torah correct?

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I prefer not to Judge God or His Words, as not worthy of my respect and honor. Any of them. I leave the Cherry picking to the "many" who come in Christ's Name.

What I wanted to point out, and did, is that the Apostles in Acts 15, do not teach against the Torah. They do not teach against God's Circumcision, nor do they teach against any of God's Laws. In fact, the Scriptures clearly show the Apostles promoted just the opposite. They Promoted God's Laws given to men through Moses.

This is Simply Biblical Fact.

Studyman said:

I prefer not to Judge God or His Words, as not worthy of my respect and honor. Any of them. I leave the Cherry picking to the "many" who come in Christ's Name.

What I wanted to point out, and did, is that the Apostles in Acts 15, do not teach against the Torah. They do not teach against God's Circumcision, nor do they teach against any of God's Laws. In fact, the Scriptures clearly show the Apostles promoted just the opposite. They Promoted God's Laws given to men through Moses.

This is Simply Biblical Fact.

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Shalom My Brother In Him,

Perhaps a small bit of context concerning the source of circumcision might be in order. After all, context is the only way to discern a 'prooftext' from a 'pretext', short of direct intervention by Adonai.

Think of the following as a key to understanding the interrelationships of elements in a matrix. The reason I bring it up is that 'circumcision' is one of those aforementioned elements as you will soon see.

Suppose we take the Days of Creation and use that sequence as primary elements needed to construct a matrix. In this case, only the first three sets are required. It would appear as follows;

1. Creative declaration
2. Covenants
3. Terms
4. Sign of Covenant

When Adonai separated Light from Darkness, these elements are clarified in Torah. Light & Darkness are repeatedly associated with life & death, good & evil, blessings & curses, etc., throughout scripture. Even His instruction is characterized as a 'lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path'.

His covenant with Adam is explained as follows;

Genesis 2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

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We may understand the Sign of the Covenant as passing though the gates of the Garden of Life into a life ending in Death.

The second Covenant He made with Noah. Here He is bringing the Waters above and Waters below back together to flood the entire surface of the planet. At the end of Noah's ordeal, He makes a covenant promise that He will never again destroy the earth by Flood. In this covenant, Noah must obey His instruction in order to survive. But this covenant does not require Noah to do anything further to receive the blessings associated with this promise.

The Sign He gives is a Rainbow. Any physicist will tell you that a rainbow is formed by the refraction of the various frequencies of visible Light through the Waters above. Starting to catch on?

The third covenant He makes is with Abram. It has to do with Abram's seed. He changed Abram's name to Abraham to reflect His as yet to be fulfilled Promise to multiply his offspring exceedingly. Now do you see it? The Third Day, He separated the water from the land to produce Seed bearing plants

Pay carful attention here: The mark or sign of this covenant is the circumcision. Please notice (forgive me if this is a little graphic) that Abraham's Seed must pass through the Sign of the circumcision in order for the Covenant promise to be fulfilled.

In conclusion, anyone would have to go a long way to convince me that the Sign of the Covenant of Blessings to the Nations is now somehow irrelevant - To the Nations!

Shalom Shalom (that is 'Perfect Peace')

Studyman said:

I prefer not to Judge God or His Words, as not worthy of my respect and honor. Any of them. I leave the Cherry picking to the "many" who come in Christ's Name.

What I wanted to point out, and did, is that the Apostles in Acts 15, do not teach against the Torah. They do not teach against God's Circumcision, nor do they teach against any of God's Laws. In fact, the Scriptures clearly show the Apostles promoted just the opposite. They Promoted God's Laws given to men through Moses.

This is Simply Biblical Fact.

Click to expand...

I wished you guys who is promoting the Torah make it clear whether they consider physical circumcision as part of the Torah.

Oh well, if you prefer to keep that vague, I can understand.

Studyman said:

It's a great topic, and it's clear that the Apostles in Acts 15, did not teach against the Torah, as "many" who come in Christ's Name preach.

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Actually if you cross reference to what James said to Paul in Acts 21:18-25, of course Acts 15 did not teach against the Torah for the circumcised believers of Israel.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

But you have to be precise, what James decided in Acts 15 was

1. The uncircumcised believers, which Paul was assigned to (Galatians 2:7-9) did not have to obey the Torah.
2. The circumcised believers, of the little flock which James, Peter and John were assigned to (Galatians 2:7-9), must still obey the Torah.

So your point falls under no 2, but do be aware of the 1st one.

Guojing said:

Actually if you cross reference to what James said to Paul in Acts 21:18-25, of course Acts 15 did not teach against the Torah for the circumcised believers of Israel.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

But you have to be precise, what James decided in Acts 15 was

1. The uncircumcised believers, which Paul was assigned to (Galatians 2:7-9) did not have to obey the Torah.
2. The circumcised believers, of the little flock which James, Peter and John were assigned to (Galatians 2:7-9), must still obey the Torah.

So your point falls under no 2, but do be aware of the 1st one.

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Forgive me Brother, But I fear you misapprehend the normal order of things, contemporaneous to Paul's proselyting among the Gentiles or Nations (Goyim). As had always been the case, after revealing the Good News, there were 'minimum requirements' the Goyim had to first meet, in order for a Jew to elaborate on the teachings of Messiah Yeshua (Jesus the Christ) concerning the covenant of Truth (Torah). This is what @HARK! referred to here:

HARK! said:

Here is the ruling:

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.

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The inference here is simple and logical.

1. A Torah observant Jew would not abide with anyone that did not keep the First & Second Commandments, abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols (like pouring out a portion of your drink as an offering to a false deity), and (The Seventh Commandment) prostitution (sexual immorality), and what is strangled (consuming meat from an animal that had not been been killed in the manner prescribed under Torah), and blood (another Torah instruction not to drink blood or to consume bloody meat.
   • For both of these matters, let's read: Leviticus 17:10-14 CJB 10 When someone from the community of Isra’el or one of the foreigners living with you eats any kind of blood, I will set myself against that person who eats blood and cut him off from his people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for yourselves; for it is the blood that makes atonement because of the life.’ 12 This is why I told the people of Isra’el, ‘None of you is to eat blood, nor is any foreigner living with you to eat blood.’
     13 “When someone from the community of Isra’el or one of the foreigners living with you hunts and catches game, whether animal or bird that may be eaten, he is to pour out its blood and cover it with earth. 14 For the life of every creature — its blood is its life. Therefore I said to the people of Isra’el, ‘You are not to eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it will be cut off.’
2. Once they agreed to those terms, they would be taught Torah (the 'Law' [more accurately 'instruction']) that Messiah Yeshua taught throughout His Ministry, keeping in mind that Yeshua repeatedly taught He only said and did what the Father instructed Him.
3. Once the Gentile had learned the basics (that to what they were committing) they were to allowed to CHOOSE to enter into a Covenant relationship with the sons of Jacob. Then and only then were they allowed to CHOOSE to take the 'Sign' of the Covenant of Abraham (Circumcision) making them 'one of the family' so to speak.
4. For clarification's sake, the Sign of the Covenant (Torah) with Jacob (AKA Israel) is the seventh day Sabbath (The Fourth Commandment).

Think of this like you would the process of entering into a business deal. First you investigate with whom you are getting into a business relationship. They would need to be of good repute. Then you ascertain the nature of the business proposition, understanding your goals and the goals of the other parties. You negotiate the terms of the contract and finally, after deciding that this agreement is fair and consistent with everyone's interests, you enter into a contractual agreement under the law. See the similarities?

You can find the same elements in the meeting with Adonai at Sinai and the giving of the Ten Commandments. After all, they had already developed an intimate relationship with the Father and His Prophet Moses during the Exodus. The only question remained when they got to Sinai was to ask the sons of Israel and the mixed multitude if they were in agreement; that is, were they willing to commit. Please remember also that this was including Gentiles in the same fashion as described in Acts 15.

So, to be precise, what James decided in Acts 15 was

1. The uncircumcised believers, which Paul was assigned to (Galatians 2:7-9) did not have to obey ALL the Torah - yet.
2. The circumcised believers, of the little flock(?) (See Note) which James, Peter and John were assigned to (Galatians 2:7-9), must still obey the Torah.

NOTE: Around 3,000 believed at the Shavuot (Feast of weeks or Pentecost if you prefer the Greek) and that was just one day! Many more thousands more came to believe in Yeshua long before Paul has his 'epiphany' on the road to Damascus.

Remember also, that Moses was raised among the Egyptians and was not circumcised like his brother Aaron. Note Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass on the way at the lodging-place, that Jehovah met him, and sought to kill him. 25 Then Zipporah took a flint, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet (or touched it to his feet); and she said, Surely a bridegroom of blood art thou to me.)

I fear you have greatly misapprehended the context of the Council of Jerusalem if you think it was a 'small flock' or that Adonai, Who was not a 'respecter of persons', would advocate treating the Gentiles in Galatia any different than He did Moses or the mixed multitude at Sinai. Messiah Yeshua taught Torah, the Writings and the Prophets to His disciples. In regard to circumcision, what exactly do you think they taught theirs?

Offered in His Love,

Studyman said:

In Acts 15, there is NO Command to obey even one of Gods Laws. They were not commanded or forced into Loving their neighbors, etc., as the Law commands They were only shown their sinful practices and told to "Abstain" from them while they listened to Moses who would direct them in "The Way that they should go".

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These Gentile converts to Christianity were commanded to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity.

Scripture passage context:

Acts 15:4-21
4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

12 And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brethren, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written,

16 ‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will set it up,
17 that the rest of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
18 says the Lord, who has made these things known from of old.’ This quoted passage is a paraphrase of Amos 9:11-12

19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every sabbath in the synagogues.”

This Scripture passage is simply stating that in all Jewish synagogues, on every Sabbath day, the Books of Moses (Torah) and the Books of the Prophets are read to the congregation. The prophecy passage, 16-18, quoted in red font above, when it is read in these synagogues on Sabbath days, is prophesying that both Israelites and Gentiles will one day be called God's people if they seek the Lord. St. Luke writes that this prophecy, which is in the Book of Amos, was fulfilled 2000 years ago. Gentiles must be allowed to worship freely with the people of Jewish lineage. IOW, Gentile converts to Christianity are not to be regarded as if they are "unclean." This passage is not stating that Gentiles must become circumcised and follow the Law of Moses with its Sabbath laws. It is actually stating that Gentiles are not required to obey the Law of Moses except for the following laws:

Acts: 1:27-29 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

Keeping the Sabbaths of the Jews and the circumcision laws of the Jews are not laws for Gentile converts. The Sabbath law was required for the Israelites/Jews to obey before the first covenant ended. However, this first covenant ended when the new covenant (Law of Christ) became the law to obey for all of God's people (which now includes both Jews and Gentiles).


This commandment (quoted below) for Jews and converts to Judaism was required while the first covenant was in force.

Exodus 31:13 Say to the people of Israel, ‘You shall keep my sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you.

The distinctive "sabbath sign" which was only required for the "generations" of the Israelites actually ended with Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross. Jesus put into force His new and everlasting covenant with His sacrificial death on the cross and so now salvation is possible for both Jew and Gentile alike. We Christians worship God and we rest on the first day of the week because of the change from the Levitical priesthood in the Law of Moses to the Melchizedekian priesthood of Jesus Christ in the Law of Christ. This first day of the week we call the Lord's Day. Historical records show that after His resurrection from the dead, Jesus taught the Christians to keep His day (the Lord’s day) holy. We are commanded to worship God and to rest on every first day (Sunday) of the week.

Hebrews 7:11-13 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? 12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.


Jesus is forever our high priest under the Law of Christ (new covenant). The Law of Moses with its Levitical priesthood and its sabbath laws and religious practices were made obsolete by Jesus' own sacrificial death on the cross and so His Melchizedekian priesthood is now in force forever. His death put into force His new covenant laws and His new religious practices.

Guojing said:

I wished you guys who is promoting the Torah make it clear whether they consider physical circumcision as part of the Torah.

Oh well, if you prefer to keep that vague, I can understand.

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You made a religious statement sir. You said, and are promoting to others that in Acts 15, the Apostles were teaching against the Torah. Although a popular religious philosophy in this world God placed me in, this teaching is a false teaching, as the Apostles in Acts 15 did not teach against the Torah, they didn't teach against Circumcision, eating unclean foods, fornication, loving others, Loving God, etc.

Now you can continue to promote the falsehood that Paul and James taught against the Torah if you want. You will, however, have to abandon Acts 15 as your justification for this adopted religious philosophy, and move to another chapter where you will try once again, to convince others that Paul and the Apostles taught against the Torah.

You are certainly not the first to accuse Paul of teaching against the Torah, and you won't be the last. But the Spirit of Christ saw this teaching coming and knew there would be "many", who come in His Name, who would accuse Paul of such behavior, this Christ Inspired the following to be written, to make sure I am not deceived by these many religions who promote such things.

Acts 24: 12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, "believing all things" which are written in the law and in the prophets:

You are free to teach that Paul was lying to these men and didn't believe in "parts" of God's Inspired Words, just as the Pharisees did. But it seems prudent to point out that Paul repented from the doctrines, traditions and Philosophies of the Mainstream Religions of the world he was born into and Turned to God in belief. His Words confirm this, I just believe them.

Guojing said:

Actually if you cross reference to what James said to Paul in Acts 21:18-25, of course Acts 15 did not teach against the Torah for the circumcised believers of Israel.

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Yes, Paul didn't teach against the Toah or the Prophets ever. Not to the Jews and not to the Gentiles.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (Both) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Your implied religious philosophy that Paul taught a different gospel to Jews that he taught to the Gentiles, is a popular religious philosophy as well. But again, unless a man believes Paul is a liar, his own words expose this philosophy is False, just as the teaching that in Acts 15, the Apostles taught against the Torah is False.

Guojing said:

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

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But as I showed you, this accusation was a lie, at least according to Paul.

Guojing said:

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

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This practice men have of selecting only the verses they can use to justify their religious philosophy, and "omitting" the rest, is frustrating for those who are seeking Biblical Truth. Here, lets show the verses you left out.


22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Where is the Commandment of God that all men take a vow and shave their heads? This was a tradition of the Jews, not a commandment from God. Of course, there is no instruction from the Apostles, or the God who sent them, to force the Gentiles into taking a Vow and shaving their heads. But fornication and Idolatry, and foods which are unclean, are against the teaching of the Torah, and therefore, to Apostles instructed the Gentiles to abstain from those practices.

There is still no evidence of the religious philosophy "Many", who come in Christ's Name, are promoting, namely that Paul taught against the Law and Prophets. You will need to abandon this chapter as well, as evidence that Paul taught against Moses. He taught against the manmade philosophies, traditions and commandments of men the Pharisees taught for doctrines, just as Jesus did before him. But he didn't teach against the word of God.

Guojing said:

But you have to be precise, what James decided in Acts 15 was

1. The uncircumcised believers, which Paul was assigned to (Galatians 2:7-9) did not have to obey the Torah.

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This is your religion, not Paul's teaching, at least if I consider "ALL" of his words.

Gal. 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

I already showed you what Paul taught both Jew and Gentile. It's all over the Scriptutres.

Rom. 6: 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Are you teaching others that this is only for the Jews? That the NEW Man is only "put on" by the Jews, and not the Gentiles?

Eph. 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

I know you can see the difference between what this world's religions, "who come in Christ's Name" preach, and that the scriptures actually say. Why is this? Is it because God's Inspired Word is insufficient, not trustworthy, not worthy of our respect? Or could it be the "many", who the Prophets God Sent warned us about, or the "many" that the Apostles God chose and sent warned us about, or the "many" who call Jesus Lord, that God's Own son, warned us about, are the untrustworthy ones?

Guojing said:

1. The circumcised believers, of the little flock which James, Peter and John were assigned to (Galatians 2:7-9), must still obey the Torah.

So your point falls under no 2, but do be aware of the 1st one.

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I have heard of this "god" promoted by this world's religions, who treats men differently according to the DNA they were born with.

And "many" promote this "god" over the God promoted by the Holy Scriptures, which is said to be "No Respecter of persons". I advocate for the Study and Worship of this latter God, which is promoted by Scriptutres.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, (Not one body for Jews, and another for Gentiles)

and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling (Not one Spirit for men born with a certain DNA and another for men who are not born with a certain DNA)

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, (Not one Lord, faith and baptism for gentiles, and another "Lord, faith and baptism" for Jews.)

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Not a God who treats men differently based on the DNA they were born with)

These discussions are good for men to have, given all the warnings we have been given, in my view.

Jan001 said:

These Gentile converts to Christianity were commanded to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity.

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Yes, they were told to Abstain from activities they commonly engaged in that they might not have known were sinful. The rest of God's "instruction in righteousness" would be shown them when Moses was read on God's Sabbaths.

Phillip Hawley said:

Shalom My Brother In Him,

Perhaps a small bit of context concerning the source of circumcision might be in order. After all, context is the only way to discern a 'prooftext' from a 'pretext', short of direct intervention by Adonai.

Think of the following as a key to understanding the interrelationships of elements in a matrix. The reason I bring it up is that 'circumcision' is one of those aforementioned elements as you will soon see.

Suppose we take the Days of Creation and use that sequence as primary elements needed to construct a matrix. In this case, only the first three sets are required. It would appear as follows;

1. Creative declaration
2. Covenants
3. Terms
4. Sign of Covenant

Day 1	Day 2	Day 3
Light/Darkness	Water Above/Water Below	Water/Land->Seed Plants
Adam	Noah	Abraham
Life	Saved from destruction	Blessings on Descendants and the Nations
Gates of the Garden	Rainbow	Circumcision

When Adonai separated Light from Darkness, these elements are clarified in Torah. Light & Darkness are repeatedly associated with life & death, good & evil, blessings & curses, etc., throughout scripture. Even His instruction is characterized as a 'lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path'.

His covenant with Adam is explained as follows;

We may understand the Sign of the Covenant as passing though the gates of the Garden of Life into a life ending in Death.

The second Covenant He made with Noah. Here He is bringing the Waters above and Waters below back together to flood the entire surface of the planet. At the end of Noah's ordeal, He makes a covenant promise that He will never again destroy the earth by Flood. In this covenant, Noah must obey His instruction in order to survive. But this covenant does not require Noah to do anything further to receive the blessings associated with this promise.

The Sign He gives is a Rainbow. Any physicist will tell you that a rainbow is formed by the refraction of the various frequencies of visible Light through the Waters above. Starting to catch on?

The third covenant He makes is with Abram. It has to do with Abram's seed. He changed Abram's name to Abraham to reflect His as yet to be fulfilled Promise to multiply his offspring exceedingly. Now do you see it? The Third Day, He separated the water from the land to produce Seed bearing plants

Pay carful attention here: The mark or sign of this covenant is the circumcision. Please notice (forgive me if this is a little graphic) that Abraham's Seed must pass through the Sign of the circumcision in order for the Covenant promise to be fulfilled.

In conclusion, anyone would have to go a long way to convince me that the Sign of the Covenant of Blessings to the Nations is now somehow irrelevant - To the Nations!

Shalom Shalom (that is 'Perfect Peace')

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Thanks for sharing this, I would need some time to dig into this study.

Studyman said:

This practice men have of selecting only the verses they can use to justify their religious philosophy, and "omitting" the rest, is frustrating for those who are seeking Biblical Truth. Here, lets show the verses you left out.


22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

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25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

You understand the words in bold, what do they mean?

No such thing means no such thing. The verse you quoted was directed to Paul, who is a circumcised Jew.

Guojing said:

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

You understand the words in bold, what do they mean?

No such thing means no such thing. The verse you quoted was directed to Paul, who is a circumcised Jew.

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No such thing means no such thing....
...as it applies to Gentiles that are investigating Torah before they commit. This has been explained to you by myself, @HARK! and @Studyman too. This practice goes all the way back to the Exodus.

Contrary to your assumptions, Paul immediately circumcised Timothy (a Gentile) by his own hand. Why? Because Timothy had been under tutelage to Torah and had come to a decision to enter into Adonai's covenant. That's why.