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Circumcision

Owen GB5

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It is not a matter of God not wanting males to have a foreskin. It served as a sign of the Old Covenant, made with Abraham.

The Abrahamic circumcision that was a done as a 'sign' was unlikely to have been the radical procedure that is common now; the amutation of the prepuce is to curb masturbation and limit the pleasure of intercourse.
 
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Joshua_5

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The Abrahamic circumcision that was a done as a 'sign' was unlikely to have been the radical procedure that is common now; the amutation of the prepuce is to curb masturbation and limit the pleasure of intercourse.
I've heard this before, but what does the bible say? It doesn't seem to indicate how much, so isn't it reasonable to understand circumcision simply as the removal of the foreskin?

Gen 17:10,11 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

It certainly involved snipping off enough for Zipporah to throw the discarded foreskin at her husband's feet, and for the men of Israel to create a "hill of foreskins" when Israel was circumcised again in the wilderness (gross thoughts, I know, but making a point).
 
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miamited

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If god doesn't want children to have a foreskin then why does he make them with one and command the parents to cut it off?

Hi SS,

I haven't read all the posts, so I may repeat something that someone else has said, but...

As I understand the Scriptures, and I will quickly admit that a lot of people don't agree with my understanding so you should likely pray on it and ask God, through His Holy Spirit to give you wisdom and discernment concerning this, the old covenant was made between God and a certain group of people on the day in which it was given. It was not ever given to the world at large. There was a purpose for God's making the covenant that He made with His people, Israel. God was asking that this particular group of people be His witnesses. He was laying upon them the responsibility of writing down all that He revealed to them and to bring in the Savior. The law of circumcision and the many and sundry other laws and commands that God made unto the people of Israel was made specifically and only for them and was always known to be a temporary law until all of God's work in bringing to mankind the truth and the Savior was fulfilled.

Now, why did God choose the removal of the foreskin of a man's penis as the 'sign' of obedience to Him? I can't give you any definitive understanding of this because God doesn't make His reasons and purpose for this particular command known to us. He just tells the people of Israel to do it as a sign that they belong to this particular group of people.

However, the practice does bring up some questions and honestly to know that we know that we have the right answers to these questions, we'd have to ask God. First, why was it only a covenant that could only be established, or shown, between God and the male children? As far as I've found in searching the Scriptures, there is no such 'sign' that God established for women. Why is that? Secondly, if it were to be a 'sign', why choose something that pretty much no one would ever see? After all, normal propriety would suggest that the only person who is ever really going to see a man's penis once he attains adulthood would be that man's wife. I sincerely doubt that it was ever some practice for Jewish men to walk around with their junk hanging out for all to see the 'sign'.

The answers to the first question are likely to cause a great stir among women and I'm sorry that it does, but one can't simply ignore the truth of the practice because it makes some uncomfortable. In all of God's establishment in the law of those who could come before Him to make atonement for the sins of others, or make sacrifices to Him, God established that it would be the men. Take that as you will, it is how God gave the law unto Israel. The Levite tribe, established as the tribe to maintain the practices in the temple, were only to be the men of the Levite tribe. Now, many will say that is because the world in that day was a male dominated reality and I would agree, but I don't agree that God specifically set forth the Levite males because He was trying to be PC for that day and time. Personally, I think that God has always withheld certain responsibilities from women because of the sin of the first woman. It was Eve who ultimately began the fall into sin and gave unto Adam to follow her in that sin. Read into that what you will, but it is the reality of the account of man's first rebellion towards God.

The reality of the creation account is that God first made Adam and then created Eve as a 'help mate' for Adam. So, the creation account would seem to imply that Adam was to be the leader and Eve was to be the helper. Therefore, it would seem fairly logical that God still sees that as our gender roles even today. The male is to be the leader in any godly household and the female should, in full agreement, follow the man's leadership. However, let me be quick to point out that this is how God seems to have established the roles in 'god fearing' households. None of this holds any truth in the households of just everyone. Following up that line of reasoning then, God gave the sign of devotion and belief in God only to the male and it was the male's responsibility to lead the female and the children in worship and faith in God. I won't be surprised, if on the day of God's judgment, He doesn't hold every godly man accountable for what became of faith in each man's respective family.

The second question is answered much like it is today among believers. The 'sign' of any individual's devotion to God is really the heart. Something that no one else can really know. Something that is not just out there for everyone to see. Similarly, the sign of circumcision is something that no one else really can ever see of a man. It is something that is private and generally known only by the man who is circumcised himself.

So, why did God make the male of our species with a foreskin if he didn't want them to have it? Well, recalling that God knows the end from the beginning, it may well be merely because He knew that He would be using the foreskin of the male to create this sign.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
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prodromos

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Now, why did God choose the removal of the foreskin of a man's penis as the 'sign' of obedience to Him?
So that at least twice a day they would be reminded of the covenant.? ;)
 
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Steve Petersen

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The Old Covenant seal was circumcision.
New Covenant circumcision is of the heart.

Oh really?

Deuteronomy 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

13 To keep the commandments of the Lord, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?

14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the Lord's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

15 Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
 
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prodromos

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miamited

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So that at least twice a day they would be reminded of the covenant.? ;)

Hi prodromos,

That may well be true of the 'why' God chose this particular act as the sign. As I began in my explanation, we should go to God if any of us lacks wisdom.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
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Owen GB5

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I've heard this before, but what does the bible say? It doesn't seem to indicate how much, so isn't it reasonable to understand circumcision simply as the removal of the foreskin?

Gen 17:10,11 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

It certainly involved snipping off enough for Zipporah to throw the discarded foreskin at her husband's feet, and for the men of Israel to create a "hill of foreskins" when Israel was circumcised again in the wilderness (gross thoughts, I know, but making a point).

That is a gross thought- what Abraham did to himself with a piece of sharp flint that day out in the desert. It must have been not only gross but decidedly masochistic.
 
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Steve Petersen

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Joshua_5

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That is a gross thought- what Abraham did to himself with a piece of sharp flint that day out in the desert. It must have been not only gross but decidedly masochistic.
But it wasn't out of his own imagination, it was commanded by God, and God's ways are not our ways.

While some might have thought of it as damaging his ability to procreate, God used it as a sign and reminder that his descendants would number like the stars of the sky, or the sand on the seashore, and God was proven right in the end, and Abraham for believing Him.

Even today, as per this thread, there is much evidence that circumcision provides benefits not only to men, but their wives also.
 
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Owen GB5

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But it wasn't out of his own imagination, it was commanded by God, and God's ways are not our ways.

While some might have thought of it as damaging his ability to procreate, God used it as a sign and reminder that his descendants would number like the stars of the sky, or the sand on the seashore, and God was proven right in the end, and Abraham for believing Him.

Even today, as per this thread, there is much evidence that circumcision provides benefits not only to men, but their wives also.

I don't think we should assume that Abraham's circumcision had anything to do with his ability to procreate or even that he did actually hack off his prepuce using a rock and a piece of flint. It was given as a 'sign' and not the sort of sign that you would show to others to prove something.
The much more radical procedure that was used as a punishment (that was mentioned in an earlier posting) was a later development and for the purpose of making sex less pleasurable for spiritual reasons. The recipients of this 'circumcision' can still manage to procreate. It just takes most or the fun out of it.
 
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